Zong Sierra No Spark...what am I missing?

[ManOfActionDT]

I recently purchased a Zongshen Sierra in a no start condition. Checked compression was at 120psi. It currently is not getting a spark of any kind.

Here is what I’ve done so far:
Carb rebuild
Ground / wiring continuity check
Replaced (Taobao / DHL are awesome…)
Spark plug
Battery
Ignition coil
Stator coil
Charging coil
Rectifier
CDI

What am I missing? Please help and or point me to similar posts of the same subject?

Thank you

[Tvnacman]

post a pic of the cdi and stator , be sure to show the wires and plugs on both .

John

[Weldangrind]

Welcome!

Excellent bike. I'd set the valves before doing anything else; 120psi sounds a little on the low side.

Spud will be along soon to address your no-spark condition.

[SpudRider]

I suggest you check the resistance of the electrical components. ;)

http://www.chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=12571

[ManOfActionDT]

Tvnacman - Are you asking for pictures of the connection on the stator coil? I have it installed... I'll get pics of both connections tomorrow...


Weldangrind - Thank you... I was hoping to get the no spark taken care of before tackling the valves... but if that will help I can certainly do it... it's in the proper "prepped for surgery" condition at the moment

[ManOfActionDT]

I checked all of the them before replacing the parts... I'll check the new parts again and see how they read...

[SpudRider]

I checked all of the them before replacing the parts... I'll check the new parts again and see how they read...
If you have time, please post the resistance readings you get for each component. The actual readings will help us to troubleshoot your problem. ;)

[zingshoen]

on the aussie version there s a one way kill switch on the clutch lever and one on the sidestand.

[zingshoen]

do the lights work? does the neutral gear light come on?

[SpudRider]

on the aussie version there s a one way kill switch on the clutch lever and one on the sidestand.
There are no safety switches on the U.S. version of the Zong. :tup:

[SpudRider]

do the lights work? does the neutral gear light come on?
Indeed, make sure the battery is good. :) However, the bike should start with the kick starter, even if the battery is dead.

[tpar1220]

i nearly ran battery down on my um dtf200 before realizing kickstand had to be up for it to run. it would crank all day long but no spark. soon as i raised stand.... fired right up!

kinda strange though, every other bike i have had with a safety switch would start in down position. not the dtf200 though..

[ManOfActionDT]

The lights work... it indicates when in neutral... Haven't had a chance to check the resistance values... will do that Saturday.

[ManOfActionDT]

Does anyone know of a wiring diagram for the US version of the Sierra? I have the Euro version with the clutch lever and side stand kill switches, but my bike as far as I can tell (no wires near the side stand) doesn't have them.

[SpudRider]

Your U.S. version of the bike does not have any safety switches. Everything else on the European wiring diagram should be accurate. :)

[ManOfActionDT]

Ah the joys of having a life and family... aka the reason the Zong only gets attention twice a year.

Aside from a new wiring harness, relay, and flywheel I have replaced all of the other parts of the electrical system on my Sierra... I have good news and bad news... the good news... I'm getting voltage to the spark plug... the bad news it's only 12 volts.... time to find the spare CDI boxes...

I will get the current resistance values and post them. One bit of advice, what is the best way to make sure the left crank case cover is lined up correctly? As I was putting mine back on it feels like magneto is pulling it askew as it goes on.

[ManOfActionDT]

Electrical System Resistance Values

Spark plug cap resistance:
Both Yamaha manuals specify 10K Ohms =10.3k

Ignition coil resistance:
Primary Coil: 0.56 to 0.84 Ohms = .7
Secondary Coil: 5.68K to 8.52K Ohms = 6.35k

Pickup/Pulse Coil Resistance:
Both Yamaha manuals specify 656 to 984 Ohms = 747

Exciter/Charge Coil Resistance:
Yamaha XT225 Manual specifies 584 to 876 Ohms = 646

[SpudRider]

All of your electrical resistance values look good. Indeed, it is time to try one of the spare CDI units. ;)

There is no trick to installing the left crankcase cover. Just ease it on as straight as you can, and align the bolt holes. However, be careful not to pinch the wires coming from the stator and pickup coils. ;)

[ManOfActionDT]

How many volts should be coming out of the trigger coil? stator? wire to the ignition coil? Are they all 12v? or should they be higher?

[SpudRider]

How many volts should be coming out of the trigger coil? stator? wire to the ignition coil? Are they all 12v? or should they be higher?

The trigger/pickup coil sends very short spurts of voltage to the CDI unit, so I don't think Yamaha specifies any voltage/current figures. Likewise, I don't know of any specific test voltage for the stator. To the best of my knowledge, Yamaha only specifies resistance values for testing the electrical components.

All your resistance test values look good. I'm betting you have a bad CDI unit. ;)

[ManOfActionDT]

I've tried 3 cdi boxes.... checked every electrical connection on the bike for continuity.... still no spark... getting 40 VAC from charging coil / ignitor / signal coil, 12.8 VDC from regulator, .....Anyone know of a shop in the Seattle area that works on Zongs? Still no spark !?!

[SpudRider]

Perhaps you can find a Yamaha shop which will work on your Zong. :hmm:

[ManOfActionDT]

On the wiring diagram I downloaded there are three yellow wires going to the rectifier and a red and ground leaving... the rectifier on my bike has three yellow going in and a red, green, and black leaving? do I have the wrong rectifier?

[SpudRider]

On the wiring diagram I downloaded there are three yellow wires going to the rectifier and a red and ground leaving... the rectifier on my bike has three yellow going in and a red, green, and black leaving? do I have the wrong rectifier?

Does your Zongshen regulator/rectifier look like mine in the photograph below?

http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq146/spudrider/200GY-2%20Battery/ScorpionBattery003.jpg

[ManOfActionDT]

Yes that looks like my rectifier, where do each of the out wires connect to? I'm beginning to suspect there is something up with my flywheel / starter clutch. I went back and measured the voltage out of a the original and new rectifiers and it's only putting out 4 to 6 volts. I found some where that there should be approx 40 VAC coming out of the stator coil I'm getting a peak of 17 randomly, and since the stator and signal coils are both brand new I have to wonder if something with the flywheel is amiss... know of anyone that has had issues?

[ManOfActionDT]

In the photo there are two connectors in the upper left hand corner, what are those for? I don't have anything like that on my bike.

[ManOfActionDT]

I have a new flywheel and wiring harness on the way from TaoBao (Chinese for cheaper and faster to my door than an American Yamaha shop).... if that doesn't fix it.... I'm about ready to part it out and put the money toward a new crf250l.....

[SpudRider]

Yes that looks like my rectifier, where do each of the out wires connect to? I'm beginning to suspect there is something up with my flywheel / starter clutch. I went back and measured the voltage out of a the original and new rectifiers and it's only putting out 4 to 6 volts. I found some where that there should be approx 40 VAC coming out of the stator coil I'm getting a peak of 17 randomly, and since the stator and signal coils are both brand new I have to wonder if something with the flywheel is amiss... know of anyone that has had issues?

The three yellow wires come from the stator. The Red wire goes to the positive terminal of the battery, and the green wires go to ground.

I doubt very much much your flywheel is bad. My Zong has an excellent, Yamaha XT225 flywheel, and it has never caused me any problems. Indeed, I have never heard of anyone having XT225 flywheel problems, or TW200 flywheel problems either, for that matter. :shrug:

[SpudRider]

In the photo there are two connectors in the upper left hand corner, what are those for? I don't have anything like that on my bike.

The 3 yellow wires from the stator are inserted into a molex connector, which mates to another molex connector leading to the regulator/rectifier (R/R). The red wire and two green wires coming from the R/R are inserted into a molex connector, which connects to the battery and electrical grounds.

[SpudRider]

I have a new flywheel and wiring harness on the way from TaoBao (Chinese for cheaper and faster to my door than an American Yamaha shop).... if that doesn't fix it.... I'm about ready to part it out and put the money toward a new crf250l.....

I seriously doubt the flywheel is the problem. However, since you have already ordered it, you might as well give it a try.

If you want to remove the flywheel, you are going to need a flywheel holder and a flywheel puller. I suggest you get a flywheel puller for the Yamaha TW200, and a generic flywheel holder from eBay.

http://www.bikebandit.com/motion-pro-magneto-flywheel-puller-16mm-x-1-5-right-hand?utm_source=feed&utm_medium=merchantfeed&utm_campaign=pla&gclid=CNDm_dOjw7wCFY17fgodeAYA8w

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PIT-POSSE-FLYWHEEL-PULLEY-HOLDER-MOTORCYCLE-TOOL-/181318098871?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a37669fb7&vxp=mtr

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MjI5WDMwMQ==/$(KGrHqZHJCgE-edmB9lLBPvpWtfj8g~~60_12.JPG

[ManOfActionDT]

Spud, you have a ton more experience... and thank you for the advice on the tools, if it's not the flywheel...what else is there?

I am getting low and intermittent voltage through the system
I've replaced:
Battery
CDI
Rectifier
Stator coil
Pickup coil
Ignition coil
Spark Plug
cleaned all of the ground connections
disconnected and cleaned all of the connections
All connections show continuity with my multi-meter
All of the resistance values are in spec
Verified that the starter clutch engages by momentarily running the starter motor with the crank case cover removed prior to replacing the crank case gasket.

I'm sure when I find it... it's going to be something I've overlooked... clue me in what have I overlooked?

[Weldangrind]

When you say pickup coil, does that mean the magnetic pickup that is triggered by the flywheel?

[ManOfActionDT]

Yes, one of the three sets of coils on or around the flywheel...I'm referring to the one on the outside of the flywheel that aligns with a "bump" on the flywheel that is supposed to induce a charge in the coil, that charge signals the CDI to fire if I understand it correctly.

[SpudRider]

Spud, you have a ton more experience... and thank you for the advice on the tools, if it's not the flywheel...what else is there?

I am getting low and intermittent voltage through the system
I've replaced:
Battery
CDI
Rectifier
Stator coil
Pickup coil
Ignition coil
Spark Plug
cleaned all of the ground connections
disconnected and cleaned all of the connections
All connections show continuity with my multi-meter
All of the resistance values are in spec
Verified that the starter clutch engages by momentarily running the starter motor with the crank case cover removed prior to replacing the crank case gasket.

I'm sure when I find it... it's going to be something I've overlooked... clue me in what have I overlooked?

This problem is too complex for me to diagnose from distance without ever seeing your motorcycle. Therefore, I suggest you seek a professional mechanic, preferably a Yamaha mechanic, who will inspect your bike. ;)

[ManOfActionDT]

Spud et all.... Thank you for all of the advice and help... I'll find a pro to take a look at it and hopefully diagnose the problem... and I'll keep you all posted on what they find.

[SpudRider]

You've done most of the work, and have new parts for the entire electrical system. :tup: Therefore, a professional mechanic shouldn't have much trouble diagnosing the problem. ;) Hang in there, and please do keep us updated. :)

[ManOfActionDT]

And Spud, if you're ever in the Seattle area... dinners on me!

[SpudRider]

And Spud, if you're ever in the Seattle area... dinners on me!

Thank you. :)

Unless it was tampered with, I seriously doubt the flywheel is bad. However, I am now considering the possibility someone might have tampered with your flywheel. Was your wiring harness damaged? What happened to your regulator/rectifier (R/R), since it was not like mine in the photograph? If someone pulled the flywheel, he certainly might have damaged it. :shrug: Is it possible the previous owner damaged the flywheel?

[ManOfActionDT]

Since I purchased it in non starting condition.... the possibility is there that it got damaged / abused... the wire harness has seen better days... and the magnet bump out that is supposed to trigger the pickup coil is polished up like it had been rubbing on something.

I must have misspoke the rectifier in your picture matches mine... what brought up the question was the wiring diagram from the Euro service manual I downloaded.

[SpudRider]

I don't know how the flywheel got polished. The bump on the flywheel should not contact anything inside the engine. :hmm:

If I understand you correctly, the wiring harness appears worn, and you have ordered a replacement. I think it's worthwhile for you to replace the wiring harness, and see if that corrects your problem.

If you are willing to invest about $40 in tools and some time in labor, I also think it's worthwhile for you to replace the flywheel, since you have already ordered a replacement.

[ManOfActionDT]

I'll get pictures of the fly wheel and the polished pick up coil magnet this weekend....

Yes, I know that china bikes aren't known for pretty harnesses... but I don't think they chop and splice like this one is... the continuity checks but the fact there are connections and wires that appear to be part of the harness in your photo that are completely missing from mine makes me wonder...

Looking at the picture of the flywheel holder you posted the width of the holder matched the width of the "polished section"... I wonder if the previous owner tried to pull the flywheel... botched it then sold the Zong to me (ok for 200 bucks its worth the education on trouble shooting alone)

I found a place that says they'll work on it... but it's a drive... so I'm going to install the new wiring harness and flywheel before using them as a last resort... at that point with a completely new electrical system I know I did my best....

[SpudRider]

Replace the wiring harness, and test for ignition spark before you think about replacing the flywheel. ;) I await photos of your bike's flywheel. Please also post photos of your bike's wiring harness, including the 'missing connections.'

[bogieboy]

Given both the mag and pickup are polished, i am wondering if something was loose in there, and possibly messed up the pickup?

[SpudRider]

If you can take some closeup/macro photographs, I might be able to tell you more. Cam timing chains are pretty inexpensive. Therefore, I have replaced the cam chain each time I have done a top end rebuild of my Zong's engine. I have removed my Zong's flywheel twice, and I know the appearance of a good flywheel.

[ManOfActionDT]

Attached are a couple of photos of my flywheel... I hadn't noticed the scarring on the inside of the flywheel opposite the pick up coil magnet, I'm guessing something got loose inside there at one point.

[SpudRider]

The outside of the flywheel looks good to me. I would guess the inside of the flywheel was scratched either before, or during installation of the flywheel. I can't imagine anything getting between the stator and flywheel which would result in that damage.

As I said earlier, I would replace the wiring harness and test the electrical system for proper function before I replaced the flywheel. If the new wiring harness doesn't fix the problem, you might as well replace the flywheel. If you do replace the flywheel, you should consider installing a new, cam timing chain at the same time.

[ManOfActionDT]

Thanks Spud,

I'll get one on order, and it'll give me an excuse to adjust my valves at the same time just to make sure everything is good.

[ManOfActionDT]

After getting the pictures of the flywheel for posting I slid the cover on but didn't put the screws back in... they went into the fasteners organizer with the rest of the screws, nuts, etc for my bike project, and that went into my tool box.. and into my truck.... last night some one decided they needed my toolbox and tire chains far more than I did... silly me.... insurance will replace the chains and tools... problem is I have no clue what all the fasteners are on my bike? Does anyone know if there is are parts list / assembly prints for a Sierra 200?

I found this one for a TW200 that looks correct is it? (ah the beauty of the internet)
http://i918.photobucket.com/albums/ad30/hunggob/Moto/BoltSizes.png
http://d136nqpz68vrmx.cloudfront.net/schematics/schematics/yamaha/yam031/YA0512158006.gif

[ManOfActionDT]

I've found a couple of places that offer stainless fastener sets for the TW200, are the fasteners the same for both the Sierra and the TW200?

[SpudRider]

I'm sorry to hear of the theft of your tool box and chains. :ohno: I hate thieves. >:(

Yes, the TW200 and your Zongshen Sierra use the same bolts. :)