Oil/Air Separator Canister Experiment

[jbfla]

OCS?

I think that means "oil canister separator"? ...but I'm not sure.

Or maybe OSC: Oil separator canister?

CSC calls it the oil/air separator.

Here's the explanation of what the OCS does according to Joe B. on the CSC Blog.

http://californiascooterco.com/blog/?p=21183

On all my current/previous motorcycles the crankcase vent tube runs directly to the air box.

So at 5,081 miles on my RX3, I changed the oil (20w50 Mobil 1), and replaced the oil/air separator with a hose directly to the air box.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS%20Experiment/crankcase%20vent%20tube_zpsxuzsa1xt.jpg


One thousand ten miles later:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS%20Experiment/6000%20miles_zps6qrqhnhh.jpg

Another oil change:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS%20Experiment/oil%20change%207_zps3ns5s1vn.jpg

The good part:

The magnetic drain plug was not full of sludge as on previous oil changes.

Only small particles:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS%20Experiment/drain%20plug_zpsioidl2y9.jpg

The part that has me concerned:

The oil level sight glass (it was at the mid point at the beginning of the experiment):

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS%20Experiment/oil%20level%20sight%20window_zpsypzhsadd.jpg

And the air box drain tube:

Previously, since new, this tube has been empty.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS%20Experiment/air%20box%20drain%20tube_zpstjwda69v.jpg


Tomorrow the oil sample goes off to Blackstone.

On a lighter note, the RX3 has been running GREAT!

No stalling, smooth transmission shifting, good stopping brakes, good power and handling on the steep, curvy mountain roads.

Yesterday at Lake Nottley, near Blairsville, North Georgia:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/North%20Carolina%202016/P8270046_zpsbwsttwlc.jpg

jb

[detours]

Thanks for the update! I'm also running a direct line to the airbox and have experienced excellent engine performance. But in my case no residue in the airbox catch tube.

Running the crankcase vent line run directly into the airbox, a little oil in the airbox catch tube is 100% normal. I would even say it's a good thing. If oil contaminants get that far, lighter fuel vapors are almost guaranteed to as well.

Your Blackstone results will tell the full story. If the fuel level in your oil is the same or less than other RX3s that were using the OCS (about 4% fuel), then that's a strong argument against using the OCS and pouring out the catch tube all the time.

[2LZ]

Nice work jb! I have yet to have any real collection on my drain plug nor anything in my screens. Weird....

Mrs. 2LZ noticed last night that the elbow was kinked running the OCS in the "correct" position....so today I eliminated it all and ran mine to the ground today like the TT250 to completely eliminate the swamp gas going into the intake, then plugged off the air box inlet.

I cleared the ECM and took it out. Yes, it acts generally better, seemed smoother but the most noticeable thing was it has never idled this nicely. No stalling, very stable 1600-1700 rpms.

I'll put on more miles and see how it goes. I can blow up "bin bags" on the run now!

[detours]

....so today I eliminated it all and ran mine to the ground today like the TT250 to completely eliminate the swamp gas going into the intake, then plugged off the air box inlet.


You may want to put a one-way check valve on the end of that line, or at least a filter. Your crankcase sucks air back in when the piston returns to TDC, and you don't want dirty outside air to get sucked back in there.

[3banger]

jbfla, I assume your bike was warm when you took that oil level reading that shows over full? I've found a good difference between a warm bike oil level and a cold and I have to assume must of us are filling the bikes back up with cold oil post oil change.

[jbfla]

jbfla, I assume your bike was warm when you took that oil level reading that shows over full? I've found a good difference between a warm bike oil level and a cold and I have to assume must of us are filling the bikes back up with cold oil post oil change.

Yes, the engine was warm, and I added cold oil for the change.

I'm pretty exact on oil level. I use a measuring cup to add oil for an oil change.

And I check the oil level every time I ride, using the method outlined in the CSC Blog.

The level is always between the two marks on the sight glass.....this is the first time it wasn't.

jb

[2LZ]

Whoops, double post. Dangit... :-(

[2LZ]

You may want to put a one-way check valve on the end of that line, or at least a filter. Your crankcase sucks air back in when the piston returns to TDC, and you don't want dirty outside air to get sucked back in there.

This is something Ive tussled over for years. No bike I've ever owned (in the old days, pre-crank gas recirc) had ever even come with anything but a ground vent. I've been through streams and creaks and have never sucked in any water. I may run a filter on the end just because..........

jb, I just changed my oil yesterday and it was slightly higher than the top measurement on the glass...and I'm pretty sure I had it between them. I was wondering if the kink in my OCS line was causing it NOT to evaporate off the gasoline???? It's the main reason I eliminated it all. Now I need to ride and check it.

Not to highjack but here's a pic.

[pyoungbl]

When changing the oil it really makes no difference if the new oil is room temp or not. Yes, it's best to drain the old oil out when the engine is hot so you get all the suspended particles. When it comes to adding oil the volume is what counts and that hardly changes at all between room temp and 250F. One thing that CSC stresses is how to check your oil. I think that's because there is a sump for the transmission. If you drain both the crankcase and tranny sumps you cannot get a correct measurement on the sight glass until you run the engine a bit and thus fill that sump. As you know, we are talking about a very small volume of oil.

Peter Y.

[jbfla]

Here's the correct method for measuring the oil level.....direct from the Zong engineers:

http://californiascooterco.com/blog/?p=17257

jb

[jbfla]

Nice work jb! I have yet to have any real collection on my drain plug nor anything in my screens. Weird....

Mrs. 2LZ noticed last night that the elbow was kinked running the OCS in the "correct" position....so today I eliminated it all and ran mine to the ground today like the TT250 to completely eliminate the swamp gas going into the intake, then plugged off the air box inlet.

I cleared the ECM and took it out. Yes, it acts generally better, seemed smoother but the most noticeable thing was it has never idled this nicely. No stalling, very stable 1600-1700 rpms.

I'll put on more miles and see how it goes. I can blow up "bin bags" on the run now!

2LZ,

I didn't mean to imply that my RX3 engine runs any better with the crankcase vent hose running directly to the airbox.

My engine has always run to perfection.

Even when there was the incident with the damaged cam, the engine started with the first push of the starter button, and ran great.

If I could get the fuel/oil business stabilized, and get someone to adjust the exhaust valves for me, I would have nothing to complain about.... :)

....well, maybe that softer spring for the rear shock would help.... :tup:

jb

[2LZ]

2LZ,

I didn't mean to imply that my RX3 engine runs any better with the crankcase vent hose running directly to the airbox.

My engine has always run to perfection.

Even when there was the incident with the damaged cam, the engine started with the first push of the starter button, and ran great.

If I could get the fuel/oil business stabilized, and get someone to adjust the exhaust valves for me, I would have nothing to complain about.... :)

....well, maybe that softer spring for the rear shock would help.... :tup:

jb

LOL! No kidding! Maybe someone can put on a 'travelling exhaust valve adjustment" clinic! I'd pay! We ham-fisted mutants aren't as nimble as we once were.

That's been the one thing between my brothers blue bike and mine. His blips to a start each and every time. Mines always cranked a few, has had odd idles on occasion and also stalled once every blue moon. I'm hoping this vent will cure some of that by opening up proper breathing. It sure helped stabilize the idle.

[jbfla]

Experiment # 2

Plugged the hose from the separator canister, and opened the drain tube.

Will ride another 1,000 miles in this configuration to see what happens:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS%20Experiment/exp%202_zpsfd5g124j.jpg


Plugged the air box:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS%20Experiment/plug%20air%20box_zps9t0kgz3a.jpg


To make Detours happy, I tried to find a filter or PCV valve to put on the end of the drain tube. The only thing I had that would fit was a right angled fuel filter from my TW 200. Have not decided whether or not to keep it on.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS%20Experiment/filter_zps9mbb2lr2.jpg

This was the oil level with the engine fully warmed up.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS%20Experiment/sight%20glass_zpskc9xieee.jpg


I noticed the new oil turned milky colored within a few minutes of starting the engine. I hope this is not an indication of a problem.

jb

[AdventureDad]

It should yield the same result as routing the ocs to the breather box...albeit with more emissions since you are venting the vapor. The milky oil is condensation. ..happens in my older volvo sometimes. Run it and it should burn off. Keep us posted.

[Jay In Milpitas]

Looks more frothy than milky to me.

How does it taste?





Cancel that.

[jbfla]

Looks more frothy than milky to me.

How does it taste?


Cancel that.


Jay, don't tempt me.....I was dumb enough to do the ballon trick... :)

jb

[2LZ]

When I put in new oil, it whips it up and fills it with bubbles.

[RedHawk47]

Experiment # 2

Plugged the hose from the separator canister, and opened the drain tube.

jb

When the plug on my drain hose was leaking it made an oily mess on everything behind it (as when traveling down the road) which then collected a lot of dirt.

[Fritz]

While watching some videos I found another interesting variant. Unfortunately I don't understand a word but at second 23:09 an option is shown how to make use of the otherwise useless liquid in the drain tube. I am not sure it is very clever since the liquid is containing fuel but anyhow have a look your self. :hmm:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHsjoHfHyPU

By the way i am eagerly looking forward for the results of all the different upgrades with respect to oil quality. Thanks for making all the efforts especially in documenting everything.:thanks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHsjoHfHyPU

[jbfla]

Very interesting setup, fritz.

It looks like the man in the video is using the crankcase by products to lubricate the chain.

jb

[2LZ]

Very interesting setup, fritz.

It looks like the man in the video is using the crankcase by products to lubricate the chain.

jb

Old Harley trick. My 74 Ironhead came that way. It had a metal vent line coming from the crankcase that had a valve on the end you could open and close that sat right over the chain that would mist it....and people think HD is behind the times. ;-)

[Juanro]

But if the gases coming from the crankcase have fuel fumes, as it seems to be due to fuel contaminating oil by blowby... well, I'm not sure if I want fuel residues over my chain o-rings.

[jbfla]

Oil Analysis is complete,

And the results are surprising to me.

1% fuel in the oil.

This is with the crankcase vent hose running directly to the airbox.

No other changes to the bike were made.

The roads ridden, and the riding style were the same as the previous analysis.

Here are the comments from Blackstone:

JB: It's great to see fuel lower this time. There's still a little fuel in the oil, but 1.0% is not problematic as you can get this small of an amount simply from normal use. Potassium and sodium dropped this time, so coolant contamination is no longer a concern. The viscosity is still on the thin side for 20W/50, but with less fuel in the oil, it's closer to the should be range than past samples. Air and oil filtration still look good and wear metals are nice and low once again. They are holding pretty steady overall too and that's good. Better overall since fuel is lower.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS/15%20CSC%20RX3%20CYCLON-082816-1_000001_zpsqnvkyvn4.jpg

I realize that one test doesn't prove anything unless it's repeated multiple times with the same results.

But it puts my mind at ease.

However, I've been doing some additional research, and it turns out that routing the crankcase gases directly to the airbox is not really a good thing.

An article in the Sept 2016 issue of Motorcycle Consumer News (p46) on "blow-by gases" going back into the engine intake states:

"the engine ...is inhaling a mixture of ambient air combined with water, burned and unburned fuel, combustion gases, ash and atomized engine oil that together readily form thick carbon deposits on the intake tract walls, and on the backsides of the intake valves....

......the consequences of this buildup: reduced airflow due to rough, narrowed passages caused by crusty surface....

...these oily gases add to the carbon buildup on the piston crowns and combustion chamber walls..."

And quite by accident I was watching the Motorweek TV show when this was mentioned:

http://www.motorweek.org/features/goss_garage/catch-can-oil-separator

It looks like routing the crankcase gases back to the engine intake (PCV valve) is a good thing for emissions, but not so good for the engine.

I think I will complete my second test with no crankcase gases going to the airbox.

Then install a new air/oil separator from CSC (already ordered), and try one last analysis.

.....That is if I can accumulate the miles here in North Carolina before the riding season ends for me. The RX3 will stay in NC when I return to FL.

jb

[detours]

Thanks for posting your Blackstone results, JB!

It's great to see less fuel in the oil ... didn't you have 4% before? I was a little worried that fuel would still condense in the airbox line and drip back into the crankcase. Obviously that's not happening, but like you said, a trend is more indicative than an individual test.

[jbfla]

Thanks for posting your Blackstone results, JB!

It's great to see less fuel in the oil ... didn't you have 4% before?....

Yes.

Here are the fuel/oil percentages of the 4 oil analyses:

The first 3 with the stock air/oil separator in place.

The last with the OCS removed, and crankcase vented directly to the airbox.

1st.....1%
2nd.... 5.5%
3rd......3.8%
4th.......1%

jb

[jbfla]

.....I was a little worried that fuel would still condense in the airbox line and drip back into the crankcase......

I think it did condense.

But it drained into the air box drain tube, not back into the crankcase.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS%20Experiment/air%20box%20drain%20tube_zpstjwda69v.jpg

jb

[AdventureDad]

Interesting findings. I agree, I don't want that sludgy air/oil/fuel going into my intake. I'm also interested in the findings of those very few that are running stock OCS with a higher temp Tstat. Maybe it's better to vent it to the outside world, with a check valve so nothing gets sucked in, as I am given to understand there is a slight negative pressure (vacuum) on the crankcase vent tube.

[Jay In Milpitas]

Interesting findings. I agree, I don't want that sludgy air/oil/fuel going into my intake. I'm also interested in the findings of those very few that are running stock OCS with a higher temp Tstat. Maybe it's better to vent it to the outside world, with a check valve so nothing gets sucked in, as I am given to understand there is a slight negative pressure (vacuum) on the crankcase vent tube.

The down side to a check valve is that it will create a substantial vacuum in the cases, pulling more combustion gas past the rings.

On a car engine with multiple cylinders and a PCV valve, there is always one piston rising as another is descending, balancing each other out. On a single it's a serious case of inhale-exhale. That's why an open (but filtered) vent is preferable.

[Jay In Milpitas]

While watching some videos I found another interesting variant. Unfortunately I don't understand a word but at second 23:09 an option is shown how to make use of the otherwise useless liquid in the drain tube. I am not sure it is very clever since the liquid is containing fuel but anyhow have a look your self. :hmm:

Good thinking, Fritz, but the small amount of fuel would not be a big problem. I would be more concerned how much dirt and other matter is getting pulled back in to the hose when the engine breathes in.

[detours]

I think it did condense.

But it drained into the air box drain tube, not back into the crankcase.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS%20Experiment/air%20box%20drain%20tube_zpstjwda69v.jpg

jb

Actually, that's good. That tiny amount of oily residue is about what I would expect from blowby, and it's getting caught in the airbox catch tube. The fuel vapor is getting burned the way it's supposed to, instead of condensing and draining back into the catch tube or the crankcase.

[katflap]

I'm also interested in the findings of those very few that are running stock OCS with a higher temp Tstat. .

As you might Know i'm using an 85c thermostat with a homemade bypass.

As an example, I do 150 miles commuting over 5 days. 10 trips in total.

The amount I collect in the OCS tube varies from about 1/2 to 1 Inch of fluid.

The picture bellow is the fluid (about 2 weeks worth) in a test tube. You can see that the fluid has separated in to three layers.

Layer 1, seems to be fuel

Layer 2, seems to be emulsified oil *

Layer 3, seems to be water *

* like a dick, i went and shook the test tube before taking the photo :doh:. Layer 2 was a bit thicker before and layer 3 was completely clear, no clouding.
:tup:

7264

[2LZ]

Great results!

On the recirc of gases into the intake and discussing buildup on the walls, that didn't take into account the main reason I vented mine completely out...and that's because in a fuel injection system, there's sensors involved that aren't in a carburated model. I don't want that swamp gas coating any sensor probes.

I have yet to see if the RX3 has any intake sensors but in the injected cars I've wrenched on, there's MAP/BARO or MAF sensors, along with intake air temp and density sensors that would be subject to this gunk.

[Azhule]

On the recirc of gases into the intake and discussing buildup on the walls, that didn't take into account the main reason I vented mine completely out...and that's because in a fuel injection system, there's sensors involved that aren't in a carburated model. I don't want that swamp gas coating any sensor probes.

There is a reason vehicle manufactures have those "recommended cleaning services" at so many mile intervals :hehe:

Every so many thousand miles (depending on the vehicle it can be as much as 10,000 miles) I do a "4 stage cleaning process"... involves cleaning the sensors, cleaning the TB and Induction chamber, cleaning the fuel system, and cleaning the piston also...

Really easy to do with a can of Electrical/Contact Cleaner to clean all the sensors,

A can of Berryman, Gumout, BG44K or Techron or Reline SI-1, or (you get the idea...) every 3 or 4 full tanks of gas usually keeps the Fuel System/Injectors clean,

And the rest can easily be taken care of with an Air Compressor, a Fuel Induction Canister/Tool (or a can of Asmoil Power Foam) and your favorite can of cleaner for that service... try some AC Delco Upper Engine Cleaner, BG ISC, Penray, Pyroil, 3M, Wynns, or maybe some "SeaFoam" if you feel like wasting some $$ while still getting a smoke show.

Keep everything running like new for years, and you get to keep the Tree Huggers happy by routing your evil emissions back into your engine even tho it gums up sensors and other parts :hehe:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfNTZp6OrQ0

[RedHawk47]

After reading Dave Searle's Open Road column in the Oct 2016 issue of Motorcycle Consumer News (and his Sept column) I am convinced that I want the OSC in place, with the long side on the top.

I install a fuel line shutoff (as suggested by someone) to make it easy to drain the collector tube. I had to "shim" it with a piece of fuel line.

[jbfla]

After reading Dave Searle's Open Road column in the Oct 2016 issue of Motorcycle Consumer News (and his Sept column) I am convinced that I want the OSC in place, with the long side on the top.

I install a fuel line shutoff (as suggested by someone) to make it easy to drain the collector tube. I had to "shim" it with a piece of fuel line.

Dan, I tend to agree that there is a good purpose for the OSC.

(Just received the digital version of Oct MCN)

I am going to complete the 1,000 miles experiment, then reinstall the OSC to stock configuration, along with the higher temp thermostat.

jb

[SpudRider]

OCS?

I think that means "oil canister separator"? ...but I'm not sure.

Or maybe OSC: Oil separator canister?...

OCS is an acronym for Oil Contaminant Separator.

[jbfla]

Here are the results from Experiment #2: plugging the airbox and venting the crankcase directly to the atmosphere.

After another 1,000 miles:

Comments from the Blackstone oil analysis:

"JB: Fuel improved again this time around, now down to 0.8%. ....

....The viscosity is the best it's been on the page (only slightly below the normal readings for 20W/50 oil), and no dirt or other harmful contaminants were detected. Metals improved as well, with some of the lowest readings on the page this time."

The results are a bit surprising to me. The numbers are nearly the same as Experiment #1 where the engine was vented directly to the airbox without the OCS canister.

I have ~200 miles since I restored the OCS canister to the stock configuration.

Here's the result:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS%20Experiment/DSC00148_zpsvrb03gzo.jpg

Here are the choices:

1. Leave the OCS in the stock position.

2. Vent the crankcase directly to the airbox without the OCS cannister.

3. Plug the airbox, and vent the crankcase directly to the atmosphere.

The other consideration is since the fuel percentage is so low do I really need to consider the higher temperature thermostat?

Comments?

jb

[AdventureDad]

without fully understanding it, and not being an engineer, it "seems" that open to the atmosphere has a downside of increased emissions, but a positive of: lower amounts (by a lot) of fuel in the oil, less viscosity breakdown and better for the engine. Why did you go back to stock with these readings?

[pyoungbl]

FWIW, this experiment proves the benefit of paying for an oil analysis. We are using what is, for us, a new engine. CSC has been super conservative in their maintenance schedule. The question is 'what is reasonable' for oil changes and what kind of wear will be seeing in an engine that lives at 7K rpm or more. I saw a similar benefit from using a higher temp thermostat, less fuel in the oil and better viscosity. As far as I am concerned this was $25 well spent. If others can benefit from these results, that's OK with me. Now I'm ready to go 2K miles between oil changes and if the next analysis is good I'll be ready to extend that interval. Heck, Joe and his gang go 5K miles without a problem so why can't I?

[jbfla]

.... it "seems" that open to the atmosphere has a downside of increased emissions, but a positive of: lower amounts (by a lot) of fuel in the oil, less viscosity breakdown and better for the engine.

IMO, having the crankcase vented directly to the atmosphere is the best for the engine.

In the October issue of MCN, the article on blowby gases says 60% of those gases are oil mist, which increases the carbon buildup inside the engine.

The TW200 has the crankcase gases go directly into the airbox.

Here's the result: (the photo was taken after I had scraped off about half of the carbon deposits)

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/2005%20Yamaha%20TW200/Carb%20Too%20Rich/piston%20top_zpsc8oio0tv.jpg


This leads me to believe that venting the crankcase directly back to the airbox is the worst for the engine.

I think using the OCS is a compromise, although if the fluids deposited in the OCS drain tube leak out on the ground, it's nearly the same as venting to the atmosphere.



Why did you go back to stock with these readings?

I reinstalled the OCS to the stock configuration because I want to try the higher temperature thermostat, and see what difference that makes.

Depending on the results, I will probably change back to venting to the atmosphere (technically illegal is the US).

jb

[jbfla]

.... Now I'm ready to go 2K miles between oil changes and if the next analysis is good I'll be ready to extend that interval. .....

After I quit messing about ;), I will go to 2,000 mile oil change intervals.

I believe Spud has posted that he does 2,000 mile oil changes....and valve clearance checks.....

....which reminds me, I'm due to check the valves again......:cry:

jb

[katflap]

As far as I am aware how you vent your crankcase will make no difference to the amount of fuel or water contaminant remaining present in your oil.

It is all to do with speed of evaporation. The hotter your oil the quicker the contaminants evaporate. The ideal situation being to boil it off almost as quickly as It has been deposited in your oil via the blow by gases.

Last winter my oil level was actually rising due to the oil temp being too cold to evaporate the contaminants off fast enough. The fact that I was doing mainly short commuter trips didn't help (1/2 hr each way). In spring and summer, the problem lessened and eventually stopped

Now I have a higher temp thermostat which in turn raises the oil temp the problem, so far, has not returned (5degs C this morning).

I agree that venting directly to the air box is a bad idea and venting to atmosphere is best. but for me, I'm happy with using the OCS compromise.

:)

[AdventureDad]

I agree. I'd like to go to the higher temp tstat, as my rides are at least an hour or more in duration, in excessive heat, and my oil level still rises. So for the cooler months, it'll get worse. Problem I see is that the hotter tstat is not plug and play, I remember reading that some modification to the tstat housing is in order, correct?

[pyoungbl]

The 90C thermostat from wattman is larger than OEM. It's pretty easy to enlarge the thermostat housing so that larger thermostat will fit.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/2016-Zongchen-RX3/i-KfczxXr/0/M/DSCF0531-M.jpg
the OEM housing has a ledge
https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/2016-Zongchen-RX3/i-VTKNgKK/0/M/DSCF0534-M.jpg

remove some of the ledge any you can now install the wattman 'stat
https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/2016-Zongchen-RX3/i-hCdf8pf/0/M/DSCF0535-M.jpg

[katflap]

Pyoungbl has done a great professional job with removing some of the ledge from his thermostat housing :tup:


But is possible to get the job done with some basic tools, I used an electric hand drill and a small grinder attachment. :)


If I remember correctly, your original thermostat will still fit and work after you have made the modification should you wish to change back.


A simple thing that you could try that's easy whilst you decide is to make some radiator covers.
:tup:
See here http://www.chinariders.net/showpost.php?p=233099&postcount=208

I'm using these as extra to my 85c thermostat with no problems :tup:

[AdventureDad]

I have a dremel...and a tiny bit of sense...i may go for it!

[rtking]

I have a dremel...and a tiny bit of sense...i may go for it!

I'm doing the same. I ordered the thermostat, but just haven't had the time to actually do the job. I will be using a Dremel as well. What's the worst that can happen? (Famous last words...) :p

[AdventureDad]

What's the worst that can happen? (Famous last words...) :p[/QUOTE]

WELL....as a long time ER and acute care RN, I can say this...here in Mississippi, many ER visits began with the phrase, "Hey ya'll, watch this!"

[BlackBike]

I'm doing the same. I ordered the thermostat, but just haven't had the time to actually do the job. I will be using a Dremel as well. What's the worst that can happen? (Famous last words...) :p

http://honda-cb750-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/file/n4027649/motorcycle-fire.jpg

[pyoungbl]

Hummm, I seem to recall some exciting events that started with the words "Hold my beer and watch this!"

Peter Y.

[Azhule]

Ahhh yes, the final "weight removal" step to every KLR 650 (fire always makes things lighter)

[Jay In Milpitas]

Katflap is quite right here: http://www.chinariders.net/showpost.php?p=235047&postcount=42

I'd like to expand on that by pointing out that burning off the fumes from the crankcase is best for the environment since the spent gasses are processed by the cat-converter. That doesn't include the vapors/liquids that can also be included in the mixture emitted from the breather.

I don't know if the OCS would be more effective if placed further downstream towards the air filter, or if pyoungbl's catch can (after the OCS) stuffed with metal mesh would trap nearly all the liquid and allow only the fumes (gasses) to enter the filter housing and thus cleanly burn away.

Proper operating temp is key to getting the water boiled out and turning gasoline/petrol back in to usable energy. Eagerly watching to see what grows out of the collective experiments.

[jbfla]

........

Proper operating temp is key to getting the water boiled out .......

Jay, just to add to the confusion.....

I have had 5 oil analyses with the stock 70C thermostat in place.

Even when there was a high percentage of fuel in the crankcase oil,

the % of water in the oil was zero.

jb

[rtking]

LOL - yeah, I hope that things don't go quite so pear-shaped when I work on things.

The trouble with me is that I tend to go overboard (probably my OCD kicking in), like using the Dremel to modify the thermostat housing, but only to discover a "pocket" in the casting, so I had to Dremel further to remove the pocket. And I polished the interior of the thermostat while I was there. Yeah... OCD.

Too late to ride, so it'll have to wait to the weekend, but looking forward to seeing the results from installing the 90* Celsius thermostat.

http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/t459/rtk92648/IMG_5120.jpg (http://s1060.photobucket.com/user/rtk92648/media/IMG_5120.jpg.html)

[jbfla]

I've put about 100 miles on the RX3 with the 90C.

The only difference I could tell was the engine temperature gauge went to 3 bars and stayed there.

jb

[rjmorel]

Ahhh yes, the final "weight removal" step to every KLR 650 (fire always makes things lighter)

Got that right Azhule, heres a pic of my brothers Yamaha 360mx. I swear it was running fine last time I parked it though it may of been a touch lean on the mixture :lmao: rj

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg186/rjmorel_bucket/20160910_125519_zpsbpnmxaih.jpg (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/rjmorel_bucket/media/20160910_125519_zpsbpnmxaih.jpg.html)

[Jay In Milpitas]

I've put about 100 miles on the RX3 with the 90C.

The only difference I could tell was the engine temperature gauge went to 3 bars and stayed there.

jb

Have you sniffed your oil since? Even just a whiff from the fill port should do.

[pyoungbl]

jb, I think you and I are seeing the same thing on the instrument panel but describing it differently. My bike displays 4 bars...counting the one that is always on. As you know I'm using the 90C thermostat too. A couple days ago it was about 40F outside and it did not take long to get the left radiator up to 195F and the oil up to about 180F. That's exactly what I was hoping for. What temps are you seeing at, say, left radiator input, right radiator output, and the sightglass? So far I'm very happy with my higher temp thermostat.

Peter Y.

[jbfla]

Have you sniffed your oil since? Even just a whiff from the fill port should do.

Haven't done a sniff test, yet.

jb

[jbfla]

jb, I think you and I are seeing the same thing on the instrument panel but describing it differently. My bike displays 4 bars...counting the one that is always on. As you know I'm using the 90C thermostat too. A couple days ago it was about 40F outside and it did not take long to get the left radiator up to 195F and the oil up to about 180F. That's exactly what I was hoping for. What temps are you seeing at, say, left radiator input, right radiator output, and the sightglass? So far I'm very happy with my higher temp thermostat.

Peter Y.

P, my infrared thermometer is in NC, so I don't have a way to measure.

I'm relying on the next oil analysis to tell me if the higher temp thermostat helps or not.

jb

[jbfla]

Have you sniffed your oil since? Even just a whiff from the fill port should do.

Jay,

I did the sniff test today.

No detectable gasoline smell, but I would hope not after only 100 miles.

Which brings up another irritation....

Went for a ride yesterday after doing a valve clearance check.

While riding my foot slipped off the gear shift lever.

When I looked down, my boot and the lower frame of the bike were covered with motor oil.

Apparently I had neglected to tighten the threaded plug that covers the lower timing inspection port, and it had fallen by the wayside.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/valve%20check/P1050192_zpslivs28fb.jpg

I unscrewed one of the plugs from the upper timing inspection ports and put it in the place of the missing one.

Then stuffed a piece of cleaning rag in the open upper port.

Since the engine oil light did not come on, I thought it safe enough to ride the bike home.

It took 5 ounces to bring the oil level back to the center of the oil sight glass. Don't think any damage was done to the engine.

Now the bike is parked until I receive the replacement threaded plugs.

I ordered two, since I had stripped the left one during the valve check. >:

jb

[Jay In Milpitas]

Jay,

I did the sniff test today.

No detectable gasoline smell, but I would hope not after only 100 miles.

Yay!

Which brings up another irritation....

Went for a ride yesterday after doing a valve clearance check.

While riding my foot slipped off the gear shift lever.

When I looked down, my boot and the lower frame of the bike were covered with motor oil.

Apparently I had neglected to tighten the threaded plug that covers the lower timing inspection port, and it had fallen by the wayside.

Adventure?

Now the bike is parked until I receive the replacement threaded plugs.

I ordered two, since I had stripped the left one during the valve check. >:

jb

Sux 2 B U. <joking> I would think some other make of bike would use a 14x1 mm plug. Might be able to get one local? Of course probably many times the price from CSC. Don't forget o-rings, too.

[jbfla]

...

Sux 2 B U. <joking> I would think some other make of bike would use a 14x1 mm plug. Might be able to get one local? Of course probably many times the price from CSC. Don't forget o-rings, too.

Did a Google search and did not find any equivalent plugs.

Sent in an order to CSC requesting Priority Mail delivery.

However, I think I need a break from the RX3....beginning to feel like I am a beta tester...

Did a couple hundred miles on my Scout today. No drama...5,000 mile oil changes, and after the initial check, no valve check until 20,000 miles.

jb

[2LZ]

Did a couple hundred miles on my Scout today. No drama...5,000 mile oil changes, and after the initial check, no valve check until 20,000 miles.
jb

Being a Polaris/Victory guy, if I ever get another cruiser, the Scout will be it. I don't want another massive monster, but I'd like something larger than a Sporty. The Scout has to be a quality piece.

[jbfla]

....... The Scout has to be a quality piece.

2LZ, the Scout is an excellent, low maintenance, motorcycle.

The engine is it's best feature....100 hp, and I like the cast frame.

However, as I am becoming ancient....the cruiser riding position doesn't agree with me....one of the reasons I took a chance on the RX3 is the upright riding position.

The Scout needs mid-mount controls for me, and after being in the market for 2 years, no one makes an aftermarket conversion.

jb

[jbfla]

Today I installed the missing threaded plug in the engine, and replaced a few bolts with stripped heads.

Then spent the afternoon wandering around central FL orange groves and a few swampy areas:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/Earth%20is%20Flat%20Ride/P1010110_zpsr5jnha2d.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/Earth%20is%20Flat%20Ride/P1010115_zpsmubbf44j.jpg

Certainly not as much fun as riding the NC mountains....but the November weather in FL has been ideal.

I kept an eye on the engine temperature gauge (90C thermostat) the whole day. It continued to stay on 3 bars (plus the one that has the "C") the whole time.... regardless of whether the bike was moving or sitting at idle.

jb

[BlackBike]

Bike always looks nice clean and cared for. Bright rear red reflectors really blaze at night. Plz link that tank pack and there is a gps mount? Device? Too? Looks like a nice setup if I ever end up with an rx4. Thanks for keeping us always supplied with new pictures !

[jbfla]

........Plz link that tank pack and there is a gps mount? Device? Too? ....... !

Tank bag mount and info:

http://www.chinariders.net/showpost.php?p=210604&postcount=46

Inexpensive Garmin Nuvi GPS is mounted on a handlebar Techmount with industrial strength velcro.....will look for pics...

Handlebar risers are necessary on the RX3 in order to use the Techmount.

http://www.techmounts.com/products/index.php?page_function=detail&product_id=149

jb

[Inroads]

I have installed on/off valve at the bottom of the separator drain tube
(And because I get tired of opening it up every 100 miles or so because it's full)
I just barely open so it slightly runs out then I quit worrying about it filling up.

[BlackBike]

Tank bag mount and info:

http://www.chinariders.net/showpost.php?p=210604&postcount=46

Inexpensive Garmin Nuvi GPS is mounted on a handlebar Techmount with industrial strength velcro.....will look for pics...

Handlebar risers are necessary on the RX3 in order to use the Techmount.

http://www.techmounts.com/products/index.php?page_function=detail&product_id=149

jb

Thanks for the neat tank mount info. I actually missed that post, thought I'd seen them all.

I'm liking this one for future rx4 (will meet you in the the Appalachians someday).
http://www.advpulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Adventure-Motorcycle-Phone-Mount-5-561x325.jpg
http://www.advpulse.com/adv-products/perfect-squeeze-phone-mount/
So much is do-able with the android I phones these days (possible future engine diagnostics to view in real time , definitely eyes on the road rider!)

[Inroads]

This thread is drifting from the topic:hi:

[jbfla]

I have installed on/off valve at the bottom of the separator drain tube
(And because I get tired of opening it up every 100 miles or so because it's full)
I just barely open so it slightly runs out then I quit worrying about it filling up.

Inroads,

My drain tube leaks so I never have to empty it.

But I would like to know how much fluid is being separated from the crankcase gases.

jb

[RedHawk47]

I have installed on/off valve at the bottom of the separator drain tube
(And because I get tired of opening it up every 100 miles or so because it's full)
I just barely open so it slightly runs out then I quit worrying about it filling up.

My OEM drain dripped enough that it never had anything in it. It made a MESS on the frame, and the rear tire - that's a safety hazard. I put a fuel valve at the end and a bit more tubing to make it easier to catch the fluid when I drain it. It keeps the bike cleaner.

[Inroads]

Inroads,

My drain tube leaks so I never have to empty it.

But I would like to know how much fluid is being separated from the crankcase gases.

jb

With my shut off valve closed I was going about 60 hi way miles or less

Till the tube was filled.My OCS is in the "official" position(which creates more

Liquid than the flip side)

[2LZ]

The vent is valved on the inside so it's not going to be pulling anything in. I just dumped the tube out under the bike like every other bike I've owned (minus the modern Vics).

It's either let it accumulate and dump it in the flower bed or on the side of the road or let it slowly mist out when it's hot while you ride. I know this isn't the popular fix here but.....problem solved.

[Inroads]

^^^That would concern me because it is dumping right at the rear tire.

Also your pic looks like the shifter is walking out on the spline just a tad.

I had a problem with the shifter loosening up and I installed a longer thru bolt and installed

A nut on the other end so I could really get a bite on the spline.

Maybe it's not a problem just looks like it might be loose.

[2LZ]

^^^That would concern me because it is dumping right at the rear tire.

I've never had a bike that didn't dump right there....well, my old Harley dumped on the chain. That was actually a nice use for the vapor! ;-)

[Inroads]

^^^ what if you shortened the hose and dumped in the skidplate area. ?

That might give it a chance to collect and evaporate some and stay away from

The vicinity of the rear tire.

[pyoungbl]

The amount of oil being expelled is actually very small and air flow alone will swirl it away from the rear tire. You will see a light sheen on the panniers and fender. Oil being flung off the chain will create a greater mess.

You can check the amount of blowby. Disconnect the hose at the airbox. Crank up the engine and feel for blowby. Rev the engine and check again. Mine was hardly noticable at 5K rpm. I'm sure there is more at 8-9K but nothing like a steady stream of gas with a heavy load of oil drops.

Peter Y.

[jbfla]

......My OCS is in the "official" position (which creates more liquid than the flip side)


I'm not sure which is the official position, but the OCS should have the cap at the top (facing up).

If it is not, the gases going into the airbox are unfiltered.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS/OCS%20disected_zpsru7snnxu.jpg

jb

[AdventureDad]

interesting...I wonder how many problems were associated with it being in the upside down setting? That would/could account for increased carbon or soot/sludge buildup.

[2LZ]

The amount of oil being expelled is actually very small and air flow alone will swirl it away from the rear tire. You will see a light sheen on the panniers and fender. Oil being flung off the chain will create a greater mess.

You can check the amount of blowby. Disconnect the hose at the airbox. Crank up the engine and feel for blowby. Rev the engine and check again. Mine was hardly noticable at 5K rpm. I'm sure there is more at 8-9K but nothing like a steady stream of gas with a heavy load of oil drops.

Peter Y.

Agreed. To me, my guess is that this entire contraption (OCS flipped either way, hoses, clear drain tube, etc...) is due to EPA and the need to catch and burn any and all HC's.

They want what little vapor that comes out of there to be run back through the motor, via intake. That would be a noble concept if it actually worked as such. Instead, they had to attach a trap to catch the heavier stuff (OCS thingy).....just so the rider can dump it into the soil instead of letting a very minor amount of vapor escape into the atmosphere.

So, my choice was do I want to play the "dump the concentrated pollutants while no one's looking" game, or do I want to avoid running that vapor across any and all sensors that effect the run-ability of the bike because of the EFI?

I may end up putting a small filter on the end but again, that would just create a place for the vapor to condense and drip.

Just thoughts.........

[AdventureDad]

Heres a thought for you engineers.... maybe it's a question. We've heard about the engine failures, and speculation it could be caused in part by carbon buildup. The bikes come with a hotter plug than other engines of this nature, and the same nc250 engine used in other applications. I refuse to believe it is due to the fuel. IF the engine was not designed with the OCS in mind, and it was an add-on for the US and or Euro market, maybe it doesn't play well with the overall engine and is introducing carbon, oil sludge mist to the intake, which cannot be burnt off, due to lower temps, and also introducing fuel to the oil, creating cylinder and bearing washing, etc, all leading to failure. In this case, it would be logical to remove it. Do the Chinese versions have it?

[2LZ]

Heres a thought for you engineers.... maybe it's a question. We've heard about the engine failures, and speculation it could be caused in part by carbon buildup. The bikes come with a hotter plug than other engines of this nature, and the same nc250 engine used in other applications. I refuse to believe it is due to the fuel. IF the engine was not designed with the OCS in mind, and it was an add-on for the US and or Euro market, maybe it doesn't play well with the overall engine and is introducing carbon, oil sludge mist to the intake, which cannot be burnt off, due to lower temps, and also introducing fuel to the oil, creating cylinder and bearing washing, etc, all leading to failure. In this case, it would be logical to remove it. Do the Chinese versions have it?
I'm no engineer, nor do I play one on TV, but I do have a tendency to ponder far too much. I'm going to keep on pondering this one too. Like you mentioned, I can't help but think it's an add-on for our market.

The odd thing is the blue RX3 I just picked up for Mrs 2LZ has 411 miles on it and not a spec of anything, nor discoloration in the clear tube and her OCS is in the "unofficial" position from the factory. Weird.

I'm going to keep mine open to vent for now and keep hers the way it is and see what happens and how the oil changes smell.

[jbfla]

Agreed. To me, my guess is that this entire contraption (OCS flipped either way, hoses, clear drain tube, etc...) is due to EPA and the need to catch and burn any and all HC's........

In order to be certified by the EPA, motor vehicles must have a "closed" fuel system.....no venting to the atmosphere, or it can't be sold in the US or EU.

In two weeks, 2017, the Euro 4 standards will go into effect in the EU that will have much more stringent emissions standards......and require ABS brakes.

This affects all new bikes. Since the RX3 has already passed the Euro 3 standards, it should be OK, at least for another year.

The RX 4 will have to meet the Euro 4 standards or it cannot be sold in the EU.

No one knows whether or not the EPA will adopt Euro 4 standards in the US.

jb

[Inroads]

So the the pic of the OCS that jbfla has posted is the "official" position.
My bike came in the unofficial position and I flipped it after some discussion by folks here
And at CSC when it was under discussion a while back.

[AdventureDad]

I agree with the closed system, but it's not a euro bike, its a chinese bike. I was wondering if it was an add on to achieve emission compliance. If it was not designed with and for the engine, it could have a negative outcome...i.e., sludge, carbon etc.

[jbfla]

I agree with the closed system, but it's not a euro bike, its a chinese bike. I was wondering if it was an add on to achieve emission compliance. If it was not designed with and for the engine, it could have a negative outcome...i.e., sludge, carbon etc.

AD,

The biggest negative outcome (and the worst for the engine) is to directly vent the crankcase gases back into the engine.

I have been spending a considerable amount of time reading about oil catch cans and air/fuel separators.

They are beneficial for the performance and longevity of an engines.

Many race cars are adding them.

The OCS on the RX 3 is an attempt to keep the most harmful byproducts of combustion and oil mist out of the engine.

If the fluids that collect in the OCS collection tube were fed back into the airbox, the airbox and the rest of the engine internals would experience a build up that would eventually effect the engine's performance.

The fluids would also affect the fuel/air mixture.

The problem, IMO, is as 2LZ mentioned, what do you do with the fluid in the collection tube?

Dumping it on the ground, or letting it drip, is nearly as environmentally unfriendly as venting the crankcase directly to the atmosphere.

As for the RX3 not being a Euro bike, it will have to be, if it is to be sold in the EU.

The RX 3 is already a "world" bike. If it wants to continue to be, it will need to meet the world standards.

jb

[jbfla]

Here's the latest oil analysis:

This is with the 90C (194F) thermostat and the OSC canister in the stock configuration.


http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS/8434%20miles_zpsr9cgmjay.jpg

The fuel in the oil is less than 0.5%

That is practically none.

If you look across that line on the chart, you can see the percentages from the previous 5 oil analyses.

jb

[pyoungbl]

Great! I also see that the viscosity has improved as well as the flash point. As far as I am concerned, the 90C thermostat is a major improvement and well worth both the time and money. I'll be sending off a sample soon, just need decent weather to actually put miles on the bike.

Peter Y.

[Jay In Milpitas]

Looking good.
I notice the flash point and viscosity have also increased.

Supplement: notes that Peter is of like mind. Must be something in military mind set

[rtking]

Solid results, JBFL! Looks like the 90 degree thermostat might be the ticket!

[jbfla]

Solid results, JBFL! Looks like the 90 degree thermostat might be the ticket!

Yes, I hope so.

But this is far from conclusive; too many variables, not enough samples, no "control" vehicles.....

I'll have one or two more oil analyses to see if the results hold up.

jb

[jbfla]

I have hesitated posting about this air/oil separator catch can for several reasons:

There are less expensive ways to accomplish the same thing. You can purchase 3 or 4 stock OCS' for the price of the the replacement one.

The stock OCS functions exactly the same.

Where I have it mounted is subject to damage. It was the easiest place to mount it and I am still exploring alternate mounting positions.

I haven't finished exploring other catch can options.

However, I am convinced that some type of catch can, the stock RX3 OCS or a replacement, is beneficial for the health of your engine.

This is the Rutland Motors Oil Catch Tank from the UK

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS/DSCN2096_zps5dzmgab4.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS/DSCN2098_zpsjczsnlob.jpg



It is ~25 UK pounds. With shipping, and depending on the exchange rate at the time, is about $55 US.

The stock OCS from CSC is $13 US:

http://www.cscmotorcycles.com/Oil-air-cleaner-p/z25-107.htm

You can read about the catch can Here:

http://oilcatchtank.com/

And order one here:

http://oilcatchtank.bigcartel.com/

Before you rush to buy one, continue reading, then make your own decision.

The catch can is mounted in the same location as the stock OCS:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS/OCS%20mount_zpsvxhnuleo.jpg


Since it protrudes in front of the frame, it is subject to damage from road debris, especially in off road riding.


Here is another installed photo:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS/oilfuelair20separator_zpspra8p04g.jpg


The other necessary task is to close the hole in the air box. I used a 1/2" rubber cap, purchased at a local auto parts store, fastened with a hose clamp.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS/rubber%20caps_zps1qekba6j.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS/plugged%20air%20box_zpslwrmfslb.jpg


The first photo of the mounted catch can shows the amount of fluid collected after about 150 miles.

IMO, sending that amount of oil (60% +) and combustion by products back into the engine is not beneficial for the engine.

In previous posts I have mentioned the consequences of doing so.

Here is the stock OCS in a configuration that accomplishes exactly the same thing.....and it is nearly free. The only cost would be for the 1/2" rubber cap and hose clamp for closing up the air box.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/mascioj/CSC%20Motorcycles/OCS/modified%20OCS_zpsrev0vgmh.jpg


You have to decide how you feel about releasing the filtered gases into the atmosphere, and what to do with the liquid collected in the catch can.

And as mentioned in earlier posts, altering the stock emissions configuration is illegal.

I make no recommendations.

There may be less expensive options to the Rutland Catch Tank, besides the stock OCS, that I have not finished experimenting with.

jb

[BlackBike]

Smart ...like the way you say for experimentation only...;)

[2LZ]

Great write-up jb. Thanks a ton!

Back to a much more simple and dated issue in this whole OCS thing....in the "official" position, the bent hose off the motor dang near kinks and I'm afraid that it will really stifle the vapor flow...which I would think may ADD to the fuel in the oil problem by creating a resistance in the escaping gases.

I've left Mrs. 2LZ in the "unofficial" position (factory set) and the bent hose is much more natural in it's shape. I think may leave it like that, plug the air box and then run the "filtered gases" out the backside.

[Inroads]

Revisiting this whole thing.....I have 12k miles on my bike and have no more issues as I flipped it as shown in JB's pic(nice write-up)
And installed a fuel shut off valve barely cracked open to not allow buildup in
Tube.

My only issue as stated by previous poster is the "S" shaped crankcase tube kink
Which has a pin hole in it from crankcase pressure making a hard turn at that junction.

So I have ordered a new "S" crankcase tube but when I install it I am going to mount somehow to eliminate the kink.

I no longer have mystery oil level rising going on with suspected fuel as I had earlier experienced when my engine was young.

[Inroads]

Original and version 2.0

[dpl096]

This thread never gets old! I'm currently venting back n2 the airbox with no noticeable issues....but this sure makes you think.... Bouncing these ideas around makes us all better owners, makes for enjoyable reading and banter and is why this site is the best forum for us.....well done to all:tup: