2018 Hawk vs. 2018 Brozz

[Meloman]

I see that Peace Sports will be marketing the new Brozz this month. I’ve been very enthusiastic about the Hawk and if able to register it here in Oregon (still undetermined), was ready to pull the trigger. Until, I saw the Brozz.
It looks like, for about $100 more, you trade a 21” wheel and rear disc brake for a counterbalanced motor, USD forks, digital instruments and a luggage rack. Also, it’s legal to register in all 49 states. Sorry California.
What am I missing here ? Is this a no brainer ?

[Its_not_a_honda]

How did you find this out? I see nothing on their site. I see a 2014 brozz that says discontinued. I am interested in the 2018Brozz and I keep checking peacesports daily. Please let us know how you find this info.

[Meloman]

See their post on March 9th titled 2018 Brozz 250cc.

[Its_not_a_honda]

Oh I see how it works now. They respond on this site but not their official site. I will have to try this. Thanks

[culcune]

I think the Hawk is a great bike. I don't think you would really be 'settling' per se with one; it is just a slightly different perspective. The Brozz would be my choice, personally, but that is because I prefer the different carb, the less aggressive tires, the counter-balanced engine, and the street gearing, as well as the peace of mind of a DOT/EPA certificate. The Hawk has the more aggressive character of having a dirt-bike converted to a dirt bike, and the thrill/raw feel, of registering a dirt bike for the street. I would definitely consider one if I still lived in Arizona. Then again, if I had my current income and lived in Arizona, I would buy both a Brozz and a Hawk.

[Megadan]

^^^ I agree. The Hawk and Brozz are different animals. Want the Bashan version of the Hawk, get an Enforcer. Without stickers on them you couldn't tell them apart. The brozz, storm, and shark are intended to be more road friendly with milder off road capabilities. The Hawk and Enforcer are squarely aimed at the trails, but capable of road duty.

Some of those "perks" of the Brozz can also be pitfalls as well. The counterbalanced engines use chain drive for the oil pump because of the counter balancers gear drive. Chains stretch and fail, and it has happened to people before. The non balanced engines use a gear drive on said pump. Giving them a more durable nature by default. Those USD forks are definitely stiffer, but also have less suspension travel than the traditional forks on the Hawk/Enforcer. Not a huge thing, but something to consider if you want to hit the rougher stuff. Even the TT250, the high end Hawk with USD forks actually has less travel than a Hawk by 1.5 inches.The fork flex of the Hawk toothpicks can be remedied some with a $20 fork brace and a drill, and it makes a world of difference in the rigidity of the front end.

Honestly, just consider what you want the bike for and buy accordingly. You wont really go wrong in the end.

[Meloman]

Megadan, do you know the actual specs for the amount of fork travel on the various models you mentioned ? What about rear wheel travel ?

[Megadan]

Rough numbers, the fronts with USD forks have around 6.3 to 6.5 inches of travel. The Hawk and Enforcer are at, or just under 8". Rear is the same across the board at around 6.5, give or take a little.

[Meloman]

Megadan, thanks for those numbers. I won’t be doing any hardcore rock bashing, just fire roads and some single track through the woods, so the extra travel on the Hawk, though nice, is not really necessary.

The big draw for me is the counterbalanced motor. I agree that a chain is less reliable than a gear but have you heard of a lot of failures or, like sheared swingarm nuts, only an isolated occurrence ?

Also, have you ridden both and if so, can you notice the difference in smoothness ?

[letsride]

I see that Peace Sports will be marketing the new Brozz this month.

:zzz::zzz::zzz: Yeah this is what I hear. And I have some money slap BURNING A HOLE IN MY POCKET!! I wish they would ROW THAT BOAT FASTER!! I've been waiting a while. I had the now discontinued 2014 Peace Sports Brozz. It had the same forks as the Hawk. It was / IS a fantastic bike. I gave it to my Son as a graduation gift and it is still burning up the Highway. They do indeed come with all the goodies most people put on their Hawk. But there are a few things it doesn't have going for it that the Hawk Does. Six in one hand, Half dozen in the other! As soon as Peace says they have them I will have one in my barn that very same week!

[letsride]

Here is my Son's Brozz.
https://youtu.be/-vb_ly5fp9c

[Meloman]

I just heard from Jeffrey at Peace Sports and he quoted me $1995 delivered for a 2018 Brozz. He will contact me when the container arrives. I’ll be talking with him further this week since I have some questions.

[letsride]

That 2 grand price tag may just drive me right toward a Hawk. Back when the Brozz was available they were only like 100 bucks or so more than a Hawk. IF I'm gonna go 2 grand plus I'm gonna march right on over and get an SSR XF250. I will wait till they get here and see what the price is definitely gonna be.

[culcune]

The $2k price is a little steep, but that is what kept the 2014 models in their warehouse long after Kandi USA became their distributor for the later Brozz model years. I guess if they keep that price, that is a very distinct difference when comparing the Hawk to the Brozz. I do think the Brozz is worth that price, meaning the Hawk would be a good alternative if several hundred dollars means something to you, which for most of us it would. For a better comparison, the Bashan 41B (Enforcer) is much more close in price to the Hawk.

[Megadan]

Megadan, thanks for those numbers. I won’t be doing any hardcore rock bashing, just fire roads and some single track through the woods, so the extra travel on the Hawk, though nice, is not really necessary.

The big draw for me is the counterbalanced motor. I agree that a chain is less reliable than a gear but have you heard of a lot of failures or, like sheared swingarm nuts, only an isolated occurrence ?

Also, have you ridden both and if so, can you notice the difference in smoothness ?

I jave ridden both. The counterbalanced motors are smoother, but honestly the non balanced engines arent all that bad either.

The pump chains arent entirely isolated. Not like the one and only swing arm bolt I have heard of. I have read of and heard of a few motors throwing that chain, but there are many more still running strong. Just something to be aware of.

[Megadan]

The $2k price is a little steep, but that is what kept the 2014 models in their warehouse long after Kandi USA became their distributor for the later Brozz model years. I guess if they keep that price, that is a very distinct difference when comparing the Hawk to the Brozz. I do think the Brozz is worth that price, meaning the Hawk would be a good alternative if several hundred dollars means something to you, which for most of us it would. For a better comparison, the Bashan 41B (Enforcer) is much more close in price to the Hawk.

2 grand makes a huge difference. You can fully mod a Hawk and have money left over with 600 bucks. For 2k, I would look at a TT250 and have the dealer support of CSC,, or go with an SSR or Pitster like you mentioned. That bump in price puts it in a much stronger playing field.

[2LZ]

I'm a big fan of the USD forks and the counterbalance motor. The USD's are much stiffer and more modern.
I haven't been here on the site as often lately but I can only recall one oil pump chain wearing out on a Lifan at an extremely high mileage and it didn't break, just wore out and got noisy. If there were more, I'm unaware.
I've had a number of non-balanced and then the balanced motor in the TT250. Definite difference. Both my Rhino and X-Moto GY were like riding blenders compared to the TT250. The little non-balanced 150's we had were surprisingly smoother than the larger 200/229 non-balanced motors.
Really like the Brozz and Storm, especially that cool orange.
How anything is coming with a rear drum brake these days is beyond me, especially some of the far more expensive Japanese models.

[Meloman]

2LZ and Megadan, you both seem to think that $1999 for a Brozz “puts me into a much stronger playing field” and you both pointed me towards the TT250. That bike is a Hawk with USD forks and $2350 delivered. So what’s the logic there ? OK, you mention dealer support but really how critical is that. Is it worth an additional $350 over the Brozz or about $650 or more over a Hawk ? Repeatedly I have read posts of bad dealer support and the feedback is always just fix it yourself, parts are cheap and easily accessible.
As I entered this Chinese bike world all I knew about was the Hawk and that got me excited. But as I mentioned previously, it is still questionable whether it can be registered in Oregon. The Hawk here is $1699 OTD but I’ve seen them for even less on line.
So I expanded my search parameters and came across the Brozz. Given that all my previous enduro bikes had 19” x 17” wheels (Triumph 900 Scrambler, Triumph Tiger 800, BMW R1200GS) giving up the 21” / 18” wasn’t an issue. The C/B motor was a draw as was the electronic dash, popular gearing, nicer swingarm with better chain adjusters, remote starter and EPA/DOT approval.
Now, with more research I find a list of 250 enduros, each adding or deleting certain features. It seems that some are stated to have better build quality than others but it’s hard to tell without a side by side comparison.
So at this time I’m in limbo and continue to welcome all input and opinions to help with my final decision.

[china007]

I think the Storm or the Enforcer would be a great fit also. The Storm I really enjoy and the Enforcer is great also. I bought both and ended up keeping the Storm. If you want smoother riding then go with the Storm. But when you get up there to TT250 price you can pretty much get anything or just do like I did and buy 2 for a bit more. I really enjoy taking the Enforcer around the field ripping it. The KX450 is intense but the 250 makes it fun without the white knuckle riding. I'm going to upgrade the exhaust here soon. I just bought the SAMDO speedo for the Storm. I like tinkering makes me appreciate the bikes more and is still way cheaper then any other big names. So far I've ridden my pretty good and makes me smile each time.

[Megadan]

2LZ and Megadan, you both seem to think that $1999 for a Brozz “puts me into a much stronger playing field” and you both pointed me towards the TT250. That bike is a Hawk with USD forks and $2350 delivered. So what’s the logic there ? OK, you mention dealer support but really how critical is that. Is it worth an additional $350 over the Brozz or about $650 or more over a Hawk ? Repeatedly I have read posts of bad dealer support and the feedback is always just fix it yourself, parts are cheap and easily accessible.
As I entered this Chinese bike world all I knew about was the Hawk and that got me excited. But as I mentioned previously, it is still questionable whether it can be registered in Oregon. The Hawk here is $1699 OTD but I’ve seen them for even less on line.
So I expanded my search parameters and came across the Brozz. Given that all my previous enduro bikes had 19” x 17” wheels (Triumph 900 Scrambler, Triumph Tiger 800, BMW R1200GS) giving up the 21” / 18” wasn’t an issue. The C/B motor was a draw as was the electronic dash, popular gearing, nicer swingarm with better chain adjusters, remote starter and EPA/DOT approval.
Now, with more research I find a list of 250 enduros, each adding or deleting certain features. It seems that some are stated to have better build quality than others but it’s hard to tell without a side by side comparison.
So at this time I’m in limbo and continue to welcome all input and opinions to help with my final decision.

The TT250 has adjustable preload and rebound dampening on it's suspension - front and rear, something none of the other bikes offer. The parts are of a slightly better quality overall, and they have the counterbalanced CG250 engine like your beloved Brozz. They also have some design changes to help with reliability - such as the rear wheel hub utilizing a bolt-through sprocket. Let's not forget the 300W charging system either. CSC is also the only company that sells bikes with their own name on it that actually has a reputation for helping its customers. The "fix it yourself" aspect is always true, but when you are under warranty - they actually help you. That is something many other sellers don't do.

My Hawk was $1300 delivered to my door last year. They are a little more expensive now, but I can still get one for a hair over $1400 to my door. Obviously shipping prices can change a bit depending on where you live, the seller, and the shipper. Then Enforcer, Storm, and Shark, are all close to that same price range, give or take a bit.

$2000 is a big jump for, as far as I can tell, the same bike they couldn't sell fast enough a few years ago and stopped bringing them in. Trust me, we aren't the only ones that think that price is a bit steep. Now, if it starts offering upgraded features and better quality parts, then the price is justified. There isn't enough info to know for sure, so as it stands right now, yes that price is on the high side.

[Meloman]

Just got off the phone with Texas Powersport. They are selling 2017 Hawks now but will get 2018’s in a few months. When I asked about any changes in the new model they said it will have EFI and a digital dash but will be priced higher.
So just as I’m trying to get a handle on all this they throw a wrench in the works by enticing me with fuel injection.
If that’s true, it will really impact the Hawk world and I wonder how many people would consider this an improvement or a step backwards in tinkerabilty. Are any other 250’s out there fuel injected ?

[2LZ]

Are any other 250’s out there fuel injected ?

The RX3 is injected. It has its good and bad points. Personally, I don't think that a 250 warrants EFI unless its a serious race bike and can be completely tuned. As far as a 1400 Hawk being injected, I'll believe it when I see it.

I know this doesn't matter to most, but the TT250 in the dual sport/enduro class is the only choice for us CA folks.

[2LZ]

Just got off the phone with Texas Powersport.

I wouldn't believe a thing a Manny-related company would tell me. Ask Azhule.

[letsride]

I paid 1,500 bucks for that Brozz you saw in the video. I went and picked it up in the crate from my dealer. There are still things on the Brozz that will need to be upgraded right away. The chain is JUNK, it stretches like a rubber band. The inner tubes are VERY thin, the rub strips are crap, Fork oil is crap, engine oil, etc. And I don't expect the new Brozz's to be any different. At 2 thousand bucks I better be getting a decent chain, and some good tubes at least. I think Peace Sports is having illusions of Grandeur. They saw the older Brozz get bought up and now they think there is a demand. Which like Culcune said that is why I bought a Brand new 2014 Bike in 2017. They had them priced too high all along. We shall see what happens when they get here. I just don't think they will sell at that price point, there are other BETTER bikes for around that price.

[Megadan]

Just got off the phone with Texas Powersport. They are selling 2017 Hawks now but will get 2018’s in a few months. When I asked about any changes in the new model they said it will have EFI and a digital dash but will be priced higher.
So just as I’m trying to get a handle on all this they throw a wrench in the works by enticing me with fuel injection.
If that’s true, it will really impact the Hawk world and I wonder how many people would consider this an improvement or a step backwards in tinkerabilty. Are any other 250’s out there fuel injected ?

Texas Powersports will blow smoke up your rear and shake your hand when you are looking to buy something. Have a problem or a parts order inquiry and they treat you like garbage. Personal experience with their "customer service" has taught me to avoid them.

As far asthe Hawk getting EFI... It would be a neat feature, but having experienced the quality of the connectors and wiring on my own Hawk, which is getting a full weatherpack treatment), I would rather stick to a good ol carb. At least until issues are known and sorted.

[culcune]

Just got off the phone with Texas Powersport. They are selling 2017 Hawks now but will get 2018’s in a few months. When I asked about any changes in the new model they said it will have EFI and a digital dash but will be priced higher.
So just as I’m trying to get a handle on all this they throw a wrench in the works by enticing me with fuel injection.
If that’s true, it will really impact the Hawk world and I wonder how many people would consider this an improvement or a step backwards in tinkerabilty. Are any other 250’s out there fuel injected ?

I mentioned this on your other post; I called RPS and they confirmed they will be putting FI on the Hawk, but it is up in the air when exactly it seems. The guy on the phone only said they won't know anything until August or September--I didn't push him to clarify, but it could mean the bikes will come in around that time, or they will know something, anything around that time for a few months down the road (2019?).

[Megadan]

Imho, the carbs used on these bikes are super simple, and once dialed in will work reliably for a long time. I get 65 to 70mpg on my Hawk with its current gearing hauling my huge butt around when doing street duty.

[Meloman]

You’re right, the carb is part of the overall simplicity that is the benefit of these bikes.

[2LZ]

I fear the day of the pre-$1500.00 250 China dual sport may be coming to a close.

Not just the cost of EFI and other EPA mandates driving the cost up but Suzuki can't keep DR200's on the floor at $5000.00 after "destination charge" and they still have a drum rear brake and regular forks!

Makes a $2500.00 China dual sport (with rear disk, balance shaft and USD forks) look like a bargain, especially if you buy one with true dealer support, parts and service.

[culcune]

Makes a $2500.00 China dual sport (with rear disk, balance shaft and USD forks) look like a bargain, especially if you buy one with true dealer support, parts and service.

It's a shame that Bashan cannot create a dealer network, or have a system like CSC for their bikes. They have 4, maybe now 3, good enduros: Storm, Brozz, and 41H aka Enforcer. The Shark seemed to be their redundant bike, although when people showed theirs off here, I thought they had a niche afterall. The Bashans, if supported, would bring competition to the China-bike class of bikes, probably lowering the prices, kind of like how the prices are competitive when they all come in a box.

[Meloman]

Well as the likelihood of being able to register the Hawk in Oregon is slowly fading into the sunset, the “cheap” Chinese bike seems no longer to be a reality. The Hawk sitting at the dealer was $1700 assembled otd. Searching further brought me to the Brozz at $2000 delivered in a crate and I assemble it. But as I get more feedback I cooled a little on the Brozz for various reasons. Moving on up, I spoke to Steve today at CSC about the new TT250. Now we’re up to $2575 assembled and delivered. Then the SSR and the XTR surfaced. Now we’re approaching $3000+.
However, both the SSR and XTR may have registration issues like the Hawk and also, they look like they have more of a motocross style seat rather than the big cushy seats like on the other three I mentioned.
So with the Hawk out of the running and the Brozz not totally lighting my fire anymore, though still a remote possibility, and the SSR & XTR not contenders, that leaves only the TT250 in the running with its dealer support and great features.
So is there anything else out there to compete with the TT and is it worth paying $2575 for one ?

[Megadan]

So is there anything else out there to compete with the TT and is it worth paying $2575 for one ?

The previously mentioned Bashan Enforcer. The literal brother of the Hawk and TT250. AFAIK, the Enforcer has less issues with registration, but it would still be worth looking into. Usually runs around 100 bucks more than a Hawk.

The real issue you will have is that this time of the year all of the shops will be waiting for new models to come in. I had to pre-order my Hawk in April of last year and it didn't arrive until June 3rd. From what I can tell, the Enforcers are pretty much sold out, so there might be a wait for one.

Is the TT250 worth it? Considering you get what is essentially a Hawk with - A much better charging system with accessory wiring, a better battery, better quality plastics, a bolted on rear sprocket, and even a slightly better quality seat (in terms of foam according to a Hawk owner who swapped to a TT250 seat). You also get, USD forks and preload adjustment in the front and rear suspension as well as rebound adjustment. Let's not forget the counter balanced engine or better carb and carb tuning from the factory. 50 state legality as well.

In short, the TT250 is a Hawk with all of the things most people want on a Hawk, for about $1000 more. I think it's worth it. If I had to do it all over again, I likely would have gotten the TT250 over the Hawk.

That said, since I live in a state where I can register almost anything for road use, for around that same money I would probably get the XTR 250 T4 LC. It's definitely more off-road oriented, but has a much better suspension with 4" more travel, more adjustment, and aluminum rims and better spokes. That's just me though, and since you are wanting something more road friendly, I say get the TT250.

Toss on some dual sport tires, put on a rear sprocket with a few less teeth, and you will have a great road friendly bike that can still hit some light trails. That is essentially my Hawk in a nutshell, and it makes a great bike for zipping around town. You can even do all of the same mods that us Hawk folks do if you feel like it.

[2LZ]

I haven't been disappointed in our TT250, but how can you go wrong with a CG motor?

Likes:
As Dan stated earlier, all the upgrades.
The real Zongshen motor
300w stator
A/B switch to control the accessory wiring under the side cover
Adjustable suspension front/rear
USD forks
Counterbalanced motor
The tires were FAR better than I expected. Good on pavement, acceptable on gravel roads and moderate trails. I'll probably replace them with stockers when I do.
50 state approval (a BIG deal here).
Good torque for a little motor.
Really like the fat handgrips. Way better than what I replaced them with.
I also like the stainless fasteners on the plastics and recessed gas cap. All nice "cherry on the cake" touches.
The new ones come with the electronic dash. Nice upgrade.

The dislikes:
More expensive than most CG motored bikes though I didn't feel it was out of whack for the upgrades, dealer support and CARB approval.
The battery was still garbage. Lasted about a year.
Speedo was off by about 5 mph. No shocker there.
It's no rocket ship.

I completely disassembled and reassembled the entire bike after break-in. It was far better built than my CB's of the past. Surprised me really.

Again, compared to the Hawk? It's more expensive. Compared to the DR200 Suzuki, it's a steel at half the price.