So Much For Waiting...

[Emerikol]

I'm travelling for work this week, and to keep myself out of trouble (or so I thought) I was sitting in the hotel looking over Craigslist last night. As luck would have it, I came across what I think is going to turn out to be an amazing deal.
http://www.chinariders.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=14377&stc=1&d=1538957517
http://www.chinariders.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=14378&stc=1&d=1538957517
http://www.chinariders.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=14376&stc=1&d=1538957517
Like the ad says, it's a total basket case. The guy told me that it was given to him about a year ago, and that it sat outside for about 25 years before that. He's asking $100 because he bought a gasket set and a shop manual for it, and just wants to get that money back out of it. The fact that it comes with a whole extra engine and a set of carbs is a huge bonus. Even if I just clean it up, put it back together enough to be a roller, and try to sell it again, I'm sure I can at least double my money. I'm flying back to Phoenix on Wednesday, and I'm taking the rest of the day off to go pick it up and at least start looking at what I've gotten myself into. I'll keep you guys posted.

[cheesy]

Yeah, reading CL on the road can be expensive. Seen the pics of my garage? On the other hand, I'd be all over that twin cam like a cheap suit.

[Essayons]

Great find. Looking forward to your future updates on it.

[Emerikol]

Thanks, Cheesy, Essayons. I thought the same thing, for $100, it'd be really hard to go wrong. Even if things go completely pear shaped for me, I have no doubt I'll be able to get my money back out of it. Hell, that extra engine may even find its way into the Hawk if something goes BANG inside the stock mill. The fact that it's the larger CL450 was what really sewed it up for me. I don't think I would be this excited about a 350. The 450's are just so much more capable. Doing a little bit of research, it seems like the stock units off the showroom floor were going right out and hitting 104-106mph. That's pretty impressive for the time. As for the way things are now, I'm tying myself up in knots trying to zoom in on the pictures and see what I want to try to get done first. Looking at it, I think that getting the front wheel back on and turning it into a roller is going to be step one. From there I'll probably start going through the engine(s) and make sure there aren't any gremlins with tiny metal hammers turned loose inside there. From there, carbs and ignition to check that things go boom when they're supposed to, and don't go boom when they're not supposed to. I seriously can't wait to get back to Phoenix and go pick this thing up.

[wheelbender6]

CL 450s are very hard to find. The smaller displacement CLs are far more plentiful. Well done.

[Emerikol]

Thanks, Bender. I'm thinking more and more that I'm going to come through this deal as good as can be. When the guy said that he had someone coming to look at it, I just knew I had missed out on this deal. Then he called me up and asked if I still wanted it. I don't know if the guy turned it down not knowing what it was, or if he just never showed, but regardless the gentleman is holding it for me, and I'm just as happy as can be. I'll probably spend at least a few hours this weekend going through the parts and trying like hell to get that front wheel put back on. Making it a roller is priority number one. After that, I can tinker with it at my leisure.

[Emerikol]

http://chinariders.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=14409&stc=1&d=1539228056
http://chinariders.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=14410&stc=1&d=1539228056
http://chinariders.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=14411&stc=1&d=1539228056
http://chinariders.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=14412&stc=1&d=1539228081
http://chinariders.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=14413&stc=1&d=1539228081

Well, I went and picked up the bike today. It's so much worse than I thought. So, so, so very much worse... :wtf: The front fork rods are bent over like spaghetti, one of the engines is completely torn apart, the other doesn't even have a head with it. The timing chain on both of the engines has been broken apart and looks like it was left on the bottom of a five gallon bucket full of water... The wiring harness is a complete write off, all the insulation on all the wires is cracked and brittle and it disintegrates as soon as you touch it. The front wheel is seized on the axle. Now for the good news. The engine that looks most complete in the pictures was actually seized up. A couple minutes with a wooden dowel, a hammer, and a can of PB Blaster and a can of AeroKroil and I was able to get it freed up. The ring are still stuck, but I figure if I can get the engine back together, I can run it for a bit and maybe the rings will free up. Time will tell on that. In any event, looks like I've got a project for at least the next winter, maybe the next decade of winters... :ohno:

[cheesy]

Don’t look at it as project. Look at it as a challenge. Or a money pit.:)

[pete]

the 450 motor was the first DOHC production motor
made in japan..

Very rare bike...be a cool bike to own....


..

[Emerikol]

Pete, I didn't know that it was the first DOHC production engine, but I did know that the CL450's are very rare and desirable. The CL350's are much more common and easy to come by. The bonus to working on a 45 year old bike is that there aren't any computers or electronics that are hard to find or have to be programmed. I have four carbs that came with the bike, and they all look like they're in pretty good shape, just dusty and dirty. All the floats are intact and don't show any evidence of corrosion or failure. The first thing I really want to do is get the front tire and lower half of the shocks torn apart. Get everything cleaned up, and see what I need to do to get the rods replaced and get the front tire back on the bike. From there, not sure where I'll go next.

[Bruces]

I do not know what your goal would be with this bike ,but if you are not thinking it’s something you wish to ride and keep ,you would probably be better off financially to sell it or part it out now ,or at least before you spend any money or time on it .

[Emerikol]

Bruces, it’s absolutely something I’ll be holding onto. I genuinely have no idea how long it will take me to get it knocked back together and back on the road, but it’s a long term project that I’ve been after for a while. This fits the bill perfectly. Not so overwhelming that I’m likely to lose interest, and not so large that I can’t continue to work in my garage. Getting the motor freed up yesterday is a shot in the arm in a big way. Definitely something I’m likely to follow through on. Thanks for the advice, though. I certainly understand not wanting to see someone get a bunch of money tied up in a never ending problem.

[Biker_Andy]

Sweet find, I really like the old Honda's. What year is she? Do you plan on restoring her back into a scrambler or going the café racer route?

[Emerikol]

Thanks, Andy. She's a 1973 CL450 K5. I'm going to keep it as close to stock as possible. Most of the upgrades are going to revolve around making the bike more reliable. Digital regulator/rectifier combo, etc. The big thing that's not likely to stay "period correct" is the seat. I have two seat pans, but they're both really trashed. It would be cost prohibitive to try to find someone that could reupholster them with the right design and material.

[Biker_Andy]

Nice, sometimes I wish my CJ was a CL instead. The CJ was only made for two years. Did you get the exhaust with it and is it in a usable/repairable condition? I imagine an original exhaust for her would be hard to find and expensive.

[Emerikol]

I did indeed get the exhaust, and it's not in terrible condition. The front pipes and headers are in great shape, but there's a pretty good bash in on the top muffler and heat shield. The heat shield will be pretty easy to hammer back into shape, but I think the muffler may be a bit too far gone. I know that there are some mufflers out there to be had, and they're not even too expensive. First things first, though, I have to get the front tire and lower fork tubes broken down, cleaned up, and reassembled. I really need to figure out what to do with the fork rods. I think I may need to fab up a new set.

[Emerikol]

I had a little bit of time over the weekend to get the front forks and the wrecked fork rods taken apart. The damper rods will need to be replaced. There's no hope for them. I'm really struggling to find just that part, and I honestly think I'm going to have to get a whole new set of forks from e-bay. >:( The front wheel bearings are also crunchy, but that's more of a maintenance item than anything. I haven't dug into the front brake drum yet, that's probably going to be the next adventure. So far I've been able to get both engines turning over, and they aren't making expensive sounding noises (yet). I'm really not sure if I should go ahead and tear down the more complete engine to the component level and do a complete overhaul, or if I should just stuff it in the bike and see how it runs. I'm trying to get the chassis put back together to at least be a roller. That would make life much easier in the garage. I'll keep you guys in the loop as to how this saga continues.

[BlackBike]

https://opimedia.azureedge.net/-/media/images/mcc/editorial/articles/magazine-articles/2015/09-01/restored-to-ride-1968-honda-cl450/honda-cl450-main-jpg.jpg

Good stuff. Like you say, make it a roller then work out sections from there without spend8ng too much on cosmetics . Then by the time little bud is 15 you should be fully restored :tup:

[Emerikol]

BlackBike, I hope to have this thing on the road and riding in 15 MONTHS, not by the time the Bambino is 15 YEARS! Those fork damper rods are really throwing me for a loop, though. On top of that, the guy who took the bike apart just tossed all the nuts and bolts that were taken off the bike into a box without any markings or organization. It looks like that box was also kicked over a few times over the years, because the more I dig into this thing, the more I fin is missing. The little bracket for the key switch? Gone. Finger release for the seat? MIA. Sprocket retainer and bolts for the front sprocket? You guessed it... I have a hard copy of the factory service manual, and that's been a big help getting organized. I'm just going to have to sit down with a box of ziplock bags and do my best to put things into at least larger subgroups, then go from there.

[Emerikol]

I managed to get the front rim all broken down today. Extra emphasis on the 'broken'. I managed to break off both of the casting lugs where the brake cable locks into place. The wheel bearings are all sorts of crunchy, and the axle doesn't look like it's seen grease since dinosaurs roamed the earth. The steering head bearings are also very bad, but I think they just need to be taken apart and cleaned. Once I got the brake hub out of the rim, it just kept getting worse and worse. The brake shoe friction material was completely separated from the backings and the springs were pretty badly rusted. The hub was full of corrosion and white aluminum rust, and the pivots for the brakes were frozen solid. I hosed everything down with penetrating lube, hopefully I can bring the pivots back. I already have to buy new front forks since the old damper rods are doing their best imitation of day old spaghetti. Not sure what I'm going to do about the brake cable castings. I may try to have them welded back on and machine them out, or if I can't get the brake pivots unstuck and usable, I may need to find a new front brake hub.
http://www.chinariders.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=14465&stc=1&d=1539660777
http://www.chinariders.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=14466&stc=1&d=1539660777

[cheesy]

Wow.

[JerryHawk250]

WOW! Did the guy mention he fished this out of the lake?

[Weldangrind]

Not sure why I'm a sucker for punishment, but I love resurrecting stuff like this.
Emerikol, did you sign the divorce papers over this bike?

[Azhule]

"Glutton for punishment" comes to mind :p

[Darkrider]

Almost wonder if there wouldnt be a set of forks from a newer bike that could be adapted to this. Not only for easier to service parts but to gain a disk brake.

[Emerikol]

Not sure why I'm a sucker for punishment, but I love resurrecting stuff like this.
Emerikol, did you sign the divorce papers over this bike?

Almost wonder if there wouldnt be a set of forks from a newer bike that could be adapted to this. Not only for easier to service parts but to gain a disk brake.

Weld, no divorce papers will be forthcoming. You see, the Missus and I have a really nice setup. We each have high yield savings accounts (Synchrony is the best in the business right now, with 1.85% APY, in case anyone cares), and each week we automatically have money transferred from our bank to the savings accounts. What we do with that money is completely up to us, and the other spouse can't say anything about it. This bike was purchased for a whopping $100 out of my account. Anything I need to purchase for it will also have to come out of my account, but when it finally hits the road, the insurance and registration will just be a household expense because it's a usable vehicle. Let me tell you guys what a brilliant idea having an account like that is. It allows us to do things we want without having to worry about arguments starting. The only thing the Missus has said about this new bike (and in her defense, it's perfectly fair) is that it's taking up space in our already very cramped garage. That's going to be fixed soon too, though. We are working with a builder and we're about to start building our new house out here in Arizona.

DarkRider, I am going to try to keep everything as original as I can. For the type of riding I'll be doing, and with modern drum brake friction material, I'm fully confident that the drums will be just fine. The biggest obstacle is going to be breaking everything down into it's component form, and then cleaning inventorying, and reassembling everything. There's already a whole bunch of things that will need attention, mostly revolving around the engine internals.

[BlackBike]

BlackBike, I hope to have this thing on the road and riding in 15 MONTHS, not by the time the Bambino is 15 YEARS! Those fork damper rods are really throwing me for a loop, though. On top of that, the guy who took the bike apart just tossed all the nuts and bolts that were taken off the bike into a box without any markings or organization. It looks like that box was also kicked over a few times over the years, because the more I dig into this thing, the more I fin is missing. The little bracket for the key switch? Gone. Finger release for the seat? MIA. Sprocket retainer and bolts for the front sprocket? You guessed it... I have a hard copy of the factory service manual, and that's been a big help getting organized. I'm just going to have to sit down with a box of ziplock bags and do my best to put things into at least larger subgroups, then go from there.

One of those famous "it's all there" comments .

Got tetanus booster? You can use that penetrating spray and rust converter spray to tackle that rust. I wonder if this was stored somewhere else beside the desert over the years?

[Emerikol]

Here's the latest -
I managed to get the front brake hub assembly separated out and one of the brake shoes off the rotating assembly. The rotating actuators are still frozen solid, but I think that if I keep heating and beating, I can get them to free up. From there, it's just a little quick work with some steel wool and penetrating spray to clean up the rust and neglect. As I was breaking everything on the front end down, I discovered that BOTH of the upper pinch collars for the triple tree were cracked right the way through. That's coming off next, and I'll carry that down to a local welding shop and get them to buzz it back together. A little time with a file and a dremel tool should see that right. I have a reproduction wiring harness on the way, and hopefully I'll be picking up a new set of front forks, as well. I'm going to fabricate out a new front brake cable boss to repair the broken lugs that were a result of trying to get the front brake hub assembly out of the front wheel. I'll drill and tap some holes into the hub and mill down the remains of the bosses, and that should solve the problem of hooking the new brake cable up. I'm going to get some new taper bearings for the steering head to replace the loose balls running around there now. My plan for the time being (and almost certainly subject to change) is to get the chassis broken down, cleaned, painted as required, and put back together. I think the last thing I'm going to tackle is the engine. I'm really undecided on how to run that part of the build down. On the one hand, one of the engines I have is nearly 100% complete. It just needs to have the cam chain run back through it and the head put back on. The catch is that the rings and pistons were frozen in the bores when I got the engine. I've been able to get the pistons free, but I don't think the rings are un-stuck from the side of the pistons. I hooked up power to the starter and turned the engine over at high speed to help polish the cylinder walls from the rust. It worked out pretty well, but still not as good as it should be. I ran it through the gears while turning it over with the starter and everything seemed to work the way it should. Neutral was a little hard to find, but that's not a big issue as far as I'm concerned right now. Finally, the headlight bucket is going to have to be replaced. In what is undoubtedly a sign of things to come, the whole back of the bucket was cut out with what I'm guessing was a cut-off disc. I'm thinking the last person that was in there doing electrical work decided that there wasn't enough slack in the wiring harness and gave the headlight bucket a full on lobotomy. Given how many wires are cut and jerked loose, I'm really glad I have a good wiring diagram and a new harness coming. That's all for now.

[Weldangrind]

Are new rings for that engine made of unobtanium?

[Emerikol]

Weld, it's not so much that new rings are made of unobtanium, they're actually pretty easy-to-obtainium. :lol: I would rather just get the bike all back together and ride it for a few months, that's all. I'm approaching the Resurrection of this bike with my eyes wide open, that is, knowing I'm going to eventually have to touch every single part of the bike. If I can do some actual riding of the bike, that's the goal. I would like to ride it for a bit, keep dumping oil in it because the engine burns more oil than gas, then know I'm going to spend the winter overhauling the engine. Just what I'm planning for now. Obviously with a project like this, plans are absolutely subject to change.

[humanbeing]

Weld, it's not so much that new rings are made of unobtanium, they're actually pretty easy-to-obtainium. :lol: ...
:hehe: 1.5/1.5/2.5 rings can be found in some 170F (ie. those chinese 7hp...) http://www.anerda.com/3g/ProList.asp?sortid=286&SortPath=0,286,&Page=4
---
After digging deeper in piston maker's page http://www.jhpiston.com/about_can/, found out Yamaha 7D9 (as in MZ200/ PW3028 pressure washer) is also 1.5/1.5/2.5 rings

[Weldangrind]

I get that logic. It was the same with my old TW, which laid on it side. In a field. For 10 years. Ugh.
I actually got it to run and rode it for a season before tearing it all apart.

[Emerikol]

So I had a few hours to do some more tinkering on the Scrambler. The swingarm pivot bolt is the only place I've found grease that was still recognizable so far. That one came out pretty easy. I got the front triple trees off, and like everybody else who does that job I dropped the steering bearings all over my garage floor. :ohno: Found them all (I hope) and got everything bagged and tagged. The races looked really bad at first glance, but it turned out to just be old petrified grease and dirt. I cleaned them up with a brass wheel on my drill and they look great. I had thought about replacing them with a set of taper bearings, but I think I'll just stick with these for the time being. As I mentioned, I remove the swingarm to start breaking down the rest of the frame and getting it ready to spend some time addressing the rust. This is where the bad news keeps on coming.
http://www.chinariders.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=14634&stc=1&d=1540812958
I'm going to need a new rear hoop. :tdown: I realize that of all the things I'm finding (or not finding, as the "it's all there" post was written) needing a new rear rim isn't the end of the world. It's just a little irritating to me personally that I didn't notice it when I went on my mini shopping spree and ordered a boatload of parts. Oh well, It'll all have to get done sooner or later. As for the next steps, I'm going to be tearing into the carburetors (which actually don't look like they were out in a field for 25 years), and finishing up the frame strip down. I'm also going to be calling a local welding and machine shop to see about getting the upper triple clamp welded back together and the brake cable boss on the front brake hub repaired. And so the adventure continues!

[pete]

The worst bike I have rebuilt was in show room condiction
compared to this.. (77 Montesa 348 Cota)
the KL250A1 I'm doing at the moment is bad..but nothing like this..

Just imagine the first ride around the block...
thats when it's all worth it...

..

[Emerikol]

A few more stray hours in the garage today. I managed to get the rear brakes all broken down, with an emphasis on the broken... Same thing on the rears as up front. The friction material was completely separated from the shoes, and the pivots were all seized up. I actually wound up drilling the shoes next to, and parallel the pivot pins, then hammered a flat blade screwdriver in the holes to break the shoes away from the pivots. I managed to do surprisingly little damage to the pivot pins, and I figure that the little bit the drill bit did catch the pins will just hold that much more grease when it all goes back together. The next thing to happen will be to finish stripping the frame down, then I'll start working the rusty bits with a wire wheel and some etching primer. I think I'm going to paint the frame gloss black (yeah, real original and daring, I know), along with the wheel spokes and cylinder section of the engine. I'm going to leave the wheel hubs polished aluminum, and the rims will be polished chrome. I haven't decided what color I want to paint the side covers and tank yet. I'm kind of leaning towards either a sunburst yellow, or British racing green. That's still a long way off yet. The next thing I'm going to get is a sandblasting cabinet from Harbor Freight. That will be a huge help in getting all these parts prepped and back together. But I can't get that until we get into the new house. I have a meeting with the builder on Thursday, and the timeline should lay out for us to move in around the middle of June. Fun times!

[Emerikol]

As usual, any time spent working on a 40 year old bike will have some good news, and some bad news. First, the good news: The frame is now 100% stripped down and cleaned up. The weather out here in Phoenix is getting a bit chilly, but still nice enough for working out in the garage, and more importantly, still nice enough to shoot some paint. I got the rear swingarm cleaned and painted last week, along with a few other odds and ends. The frame will get painted this weekend.
http://www.chinariders.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=15026&stc=1&d=1544098701
Now the bad news: The rear brake pedal has a pivot rod that connects the pedal to the frame, and also serves as the pivot for the centerstand. As you can imagine, the bike being left outside exposed to the elements for 25 years didn't do it any favors. The rod was completely seized to the brake pedal, and I had to use the trusty angle grinder and cutoff wheel to get it out.
http://www.chinariders.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=15027&stc=1&d=1544098882
http://www.chinariders.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=15028&stc=1&d=1544098882
http://www.chinariders.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=15029&stc=1&d=1544098882
This leaves me with two problems now. 1) The rod is still stuck inside the brake pedal, and needs to be removed so I can fit a new rod, and 2) I have to find a new rod that is in usable shape, or have a machine shop whip one up for me. Surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be many machine shops out here in Phoenix. They mostly revolve around heavy industrial or production industries, and as a result a guy walking in the front door with a unique job isn't something they really jump on. Once I get the frame painted up and ready to go, I'll be able to start on the reassembly phase. I'm going to order the wiring harness and a few other odds and sods this weekend. I'm going to have to get some time set aside to dig into the engine, as well. That's going to require a complete teardown and overhaul. I also need to get the massive dent banged out of the exhaust system. It's a process, no doubt about it.

[Weldangrind]

What is unique about the rod? Does it step up or down? Can it just be a piece of DOM tubing? I searched for it on BB, but only found a 350, not a 450. Tell me if the diagram matches what you have.

15030

[Azhule]

It's about 9 degrees F out here today with 20+ mph winds... what is "a bit chilly" in the South? :hehe:

[Emerikol]

Item 13 on the parts breakdown. It steps in two places to capture grease.
http://www.chinariders.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=15036&stc=1&d=1544137563

[Emerikol]

It's about 9 degrees F out here today with 20+ mph winds... what is "a bit chilly" in the South? :hehe:

It only got up to 60 here, can you believe it? They were'mt kidding when they said this would be a cold winter... :lmao:

[cheesy]

It only got up to 60 here, can you believe it? They were'mt kidding when they said this would be a cold winter... :lmao:

T-shirt weather.

[Emerikol]

T-shirt weather.

I was in a t-shirt, shorts and flip-flops yesterday. It's tough, let me tell you, very tough...

[Weldangrind]

Item 13 on the parts breakdown. It steps in two places to capture grease.
http://www.chinariders.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=15036&stc=1&d=1544137563

I would be surprised if I couldn't make something like that. Can you give me dimensions? The relieved areas that capture grease could be ground out in a hillbilly fashion, since it only matters that grease can be applied. It doesn't need to be pretty inside.

[Emerikol]

Weld, I sent you a PM about the parts. Thanks!

[Emerikol]

Just to update everyone that I have nothing to update about, I took this week off because I was going to get some work done on the Scrambler. It didn't work out. The Bambino was sick on Christmas Day, and didn't want to do anything but cuddle on the couch all day. If you put him down for any reason at all, he would just stand there and cry and scream with his arms up. We think it was a combination of something he ate, and his molars coming in. He's got eight teeth in there now, so I can imagine things are getting a bit crowded for him, and causing him a bit of pain. I also went into the field on Thursday to help out one of our cooler account managers. He managed to take a piece of business away from a competitor, and wanted to get me in there pronto to install the equipment. Long story short, there was still a ton of the old chemical left over (because that's the way this particular competitor operates, they undercut the price by a huge margin, but then order a couple thousand dollars worth of chemical to sit on the customer site), and I won't be doing the equipment install until the middle of January at the earliest. Back to the Scrambler, maybe. I was out in the garage a few times, and came to the realization that I don't have the stuff I need to get it back together as a roller, and so all I can really do is finish cleaning and painting the frame. Great! I'll do that!... But wait. If I paint the frame now, it's likely going to get pretty scratched up between now and the move into the new house, and even more likely during the move to the new house... On top of that, I don't have the parts needed to overhaul the new forks I picked up, or get the brake hubs cleaned up enough to go back together. I also don't have brakes for either end, or wheel bearings, or a new rear rim. ::Sigh:: I guess this project is going to go on the back burner until we get into the new house and I get a couple workbenches built so I can lay out some of the parts, and maybe tear into the engine. I also need to pick up a sandblasting cabinet and an air compressor to run it. A parts washer is likely also in my future... So there's my no update update. Thanks for coming along for the ride.