break in

[lineman55]

On the Yamaha forum I go on, the majority says that the "break in" thing is a myth. Best way to break in an engine is thrash it. Has to do with heat, coatings and metallurgy. Many claim it's a way for the manufactures to get you to baby the bike while it's on warrantee. Thoughts?

[RedCrowRides]

Well, unless the Dealership has hired spies to follow Buyers around , I don't see how they would know whether you thrashed it or babied it during break in , i n the event of a warranty claim arising. Surely you wouldn't go in there and say " Oh yeah i was ragging the dog snot out of it when it blew" if you have any working brain cells.


That said , the "break in " argument has been done here as well and as to be expected there are as many different opinions as grains of sand on a beach. Personally i don't see how really thrashing a brand new anything that the rings , valve seats and clutch plates etc have not seated in could be a "good thing"., but then you don't need to baby it , either since that is likely not how you are going to ride it and "some" stress is required to properly wear in parts.,so I'm guessing the best method is somewhere in the middle. I say do what you are comfortable with since it's you who is going to be living with ( and paying for ) the eventual outcome.

[2LZ]

I'm a believer on factory recommended break-in procedures, especially on four strokes. Two strokes, not so much. Far fewer moving parts.

Break-in is like religion and politics. No amount of banter will change someone's mind....so it's a "to each their own" situation.

[sirmaxwell]

On the Yamaha forum I go on, the majority says that the "break in" thing is a myth. Best way to break in an engine is thrash it. Has to do with heat, coatings and metallurgy. Many claim it's a way for the manufactures to get you to baby the bike while it's on warrantee. Thoughts?

I agree with Red Crow and 2LZ with their reasons. All the motorcycle makers say that you should only use about half power, maybe 2/3 power at the most during at least the first couple hundred miles maybe even the first 500 miles or more to be extra safe. I think my Boom Vader says dont exceed 30MPH during break in but it does not say for how many miles the break in is!--Big bike makers usually say break in is 500 to 1500 miles. Alls the only other thing the Vader hanbook says is change the oil before you ever start the bike then change it again at 180 miles during break in, and make sure to use 100% conventional 4 stroke motorcycle oil that is approved for use with wet clutches. It was more important to break the bikes in properly year ago when the metallurgy was worse....but hard break in still can cause issues in some cases and believe me valves that don't seat right or rings that dont properly seat and mate to the cylinder surface can both fail catastrophically and cause severe damage. One reason these parts can still break off even with the best metals they will probably ever use for mass produced bikes is because basically the different components in your engine are made of different metals and they do come into contact with each other and the weaker metal will break. In example if the valves aren't seated properly and some engines are interference meaning that if the valves dont close when the piston hits TDC it will hit the valves and cause pretty bad damage to the point you will need a valve job, maybe a piston and maybe a new cylinder or at least a new hone to it. Or when the engine is brand new many parts are going to be at the tightest clearance or with parts like the rings they will be at their biggest when new, Then as you break the engine in the rings and cylinder rub each other as designed to transfer heat to the cylinder that is shed by the outside cooling fins, AND if those rings are not seated properly and you ring the throttles neck you will cause the rings to expand more with more heat at the higher rpm and possibly cause the rings to fail and maybe break off which could damage your cylinder, piston head and even your bottom end also if the bits get past the piston if the cylinder wall is damaged then Boom you could need a whole new engine. With very good oils and very good engines with tighter clearances, tighter manufacturing tolerances and everything it is less likely that you will break a new engine if you go WOT from mile one...But engines do fail because of this on these clone bikes so ifI were you I would at very least take it at half RPM for a couple miles ride or farther, then turn the engine off and let it cool all the way down. Then repeat that maybe 5 times before thinking of getting up to WOT redline...But I definitley reccomend you go at least 200 miles at 1/2 to 2/3 of the redline RPM, which is also the first manufacturer reccomended oil change (of course thats the first oil change after the initial oil change before you ever start the bike). Also you are supposed to vary RPM during the first 200-500 miles--meaning dont leave the bike idling more than needed for warm up and don't hold the throttle in one position for very long on the open road. Hope that helps explain as to why not to go crazy from mile one. Some people will go WOT to redline and be ok, some will ruin their engines completely or do some minor damage BUT there is zero upside to a "hard" break in.

[dpl096]

I'm a believer on factory recommended break-in procedures, especially on four strokes. Two strokes, not so much. Far fewer moving parts.

Break-in is like religion and politics. No amount of banter will change someone's mind....so it's a "to each their own" situation.

Just like the great oil debate :)

[Its_not_a_honda]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpoglovyy_8


http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

[RedCrowRides]

Thats a great Video, however keep in mind that even the guy hosting it specifically mentioned that the "soft" break in procedure was , in terms of Japanese bikes etc a " hold over" from the days when machining, metallurgy ,etc were not as good as they are today and therefor the break in was more critical .
Combine that with our area of application here, which is Chinese bikes and basically what you have is a "repeat" of the "back in the day " scenario,or reason for "soft" break ins. It isn't much of a secret that materials, metallurgy, and machining etc on these Chinese bikes has more in common with " yesteryear" than cutting edge offerings out of Japan, Germany, and even the USA. Our engine designs are based on 20-30 year old designs and they are built using methods nearly as old.


Which doesn't mean they cant be fun, dependable, durable machines, it just means $1400 motorcycles aren't built with the same materials and processes a $6000 motorcycle is ,and thatis why , just like in " the old days" of US,German, Japanese , etc bikes, the break in was more critical .


And that is why , if we are speaking of Chinese Bikes, I'm still going with " soft break ins" per the Manufacturers guidelines, over the "jump on and ride it like you stole it " method.

[duck9191]

Idle to temp then let it cool.

Idle to temp ride it with varying throttle up to 3/4 to get cylinder pressures up to seat rings, no wide open and no extended sustained speed, let it cool.

Change the oil, these have no real filter. There will be glitter, these engines are good but the machining isn't perfect, plus you will get some clutch material in there while it breaks in.

Idle to temp ride with varying throttle more aggressively, some wide open but not keeping it pinned and no extended sustained speed then let it cool.

idle to temp and ride it, no extended sustained speed or wot for first 5-10 hrs.

I change the oil every hour for the first few or until the glitter drops off. Oils cheap and its and easy way to be safe.

That's what i have always done, gives it some time for the rotating assembly and friction surfaces to wear in a bit, but ride it hard enough to keep cylinder pressure up to keep the rings against the wall so the seat.

[sirmaxwell]

Idle to temp then let it cool.

Idle to temp ride it with varying throttle up to 3/4 to get cylinder pressures up to seat rings, no wide open and no extended sustained speed, let it cool.

Change the oil, these have no real filter. There will be glitter, these engines are good but the machining isn't perfect, plus you will get some clutch material in there while it breaks in.

Idle to temp ride with varying throttle more aggressively, some wide open but not keeping it pinned and no extended sustained speed then let it cool.

idle to temp and ride it, no extended sustained speed or wot for first 5-10 hrs.

I change the oil every hour for the first few or until the glitter drops off. Oils cheap and its and easy way to be safe.

That's what i have always done, gives it some time for the rotating assembly and friction surfaces to wear in a bit, but ride it hard enough to keep cylinder pressure up to keep the rings against the wall so the seat.

I think Cylinder pressure would probably peak at less RPMS than even what the manufacturer reccomends to ride the bike at during break in. (BOOM Vader reccomends don't exceed 30MPH during break in, which translates to I think 5000 RPM or less when in 4th gear..they also say vary rpms --All the Bigger bike makers say break in is about 500 to 1500 miles give or take but I havent seen the Boom Vader manual give a number for how long break in is, maybe the manual says it but honestly I have struggled with reading thru all their broken Chinglish some!) I have read 3 studies recently on cylinder pressure and how the pressure peaks a little after TDC when the piston is being fired down on the power/combustion stroke but that pressure also varies with RPM (meaning at any RPM the highest CYlinder pressure for that RPM is just after TDC towards beginning of power/combustion [down]stroke) Of those 3 I just read a study that used a different 4 stroke gas engine and it's peak cylinder pressure was just after TDC towards the beginning of the combustion/power stroke at 3000 RPM --which blows out of the water everyone's hard break in is good for high cylinder pressure to seat rings and valves argument!!-- STUDY I just mentioned Linked here: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Cylinder-pressure-of-gasoline-versus-engine-speeds_fig2_260810767 Plus I have read other articles that I'm not going to chase down right now that have said peak cylinder pressure Usually comes at peak torque RPM or well under for 4 stroke singles --and the Boom Vader is listed at making peak torque at 5500 RPM--(and even if peak cyl press is at 5500 RPM, 5500rpm might be achieved in the lower gears while still not breaking BOOM's reccomended top speed during break in ..Although I think I Mostly kept mine at 5000 rpm for the first 300km=181miles until the first reccomended oil change--of course I changed oil before starting the bike the first time and I did change oil at least once again between then and the first reccomended change--my bike now has nearly 500 miles on it and I still keep the RPMs a little low usually not exceeding 6000RPM which is easy and gets me to about 50MPH in 4th with my 17t front sprocket but I will feel more comfortable going higher on the RPMs after I break 500 miles and more)...
There are other reasons ALL the motorcycle makers reccomend lower speeds and lower during break in that almost everyone I have seen talk on the break in debate completely overlook. Yes the engine breaking in is a big point, still in 2019 and it is important to break in the engine...But what about "Breakin-In" the rest of the bike and the rider??? I mean breaking in the rest of the bike in the sense that out of thousands or millions of bikes being assembled, especially with many of these cheap ones being partially assembled by the end users who are often quite amateur, SOME of the bikes will inevitably be put together in a defective manner which CAN cause injury and death and property damage!!!! Plus SOME of the parts will be defective and can cause injury, death and property damage!!--in these cases and the next I will mention the thinking is that parts that are defective from the factory, or damaged en route, or poorly assembled then they will likely cause issues in the first few hundred miles during the break in period---so would ya rather be going fast or slower when a problem from the factory/manufacture, delivery or assembly causes a crash or near crash?? Also the last point people overlook that I can think of on no sleep is "Breaking In" the rider! Especially with these small displacement and cheap bikes there are going to be a lot of inexperienced kids buying them who will have a lot of learning to do before they are very proficient riders...plus somone who is experienced maybe hasnt ridden a bike before that is exactly like the brand new one they just bought...so in either case of inexperienced or experienced riders, would you rather have them going fast or at a moderate speed when they are learning how to ride?? Again think death, injury and property damage in that order before you tell someone to break in their bike hard and Im not trying to single anyone out just a general message especially for the younger riders. Sure you can argue that some you know how to ride other bikes or that you inspected every part very well and assembled it perfectly but still accidents happen and are more likely to happen when learning, when the bike is new and defective or badly put together parts may come apart and when speeding, so speeding makes it worse!
Like I said towards the beginning of my rambling there are still perfectly good reasons why to break in the engine at medium rpm and medium speed but there are plenty of good sources that describe why not to immediately drive it like ya stole it including universities that speak about how metals change after going thru some heat cycles like the previous poster was saying something to that effect in their own way I think,. I hope that makes sense, safety first, ride safe, rock on and catch ya s later

[sirmaxwell]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpoglovyy_8


http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

I DO NOT AGREE WITH A LOT OF THE ABOVE VIDEO AND I ESPECIALLY DISAGREE WITH THE ABOVE WEBSITE LINK TO MOTOMAN AT THE BOTTOM OF THE ABOVE VIDEO .THE ABOVE ARE A QUOTE FROM PREVIOUS POSTER. I AGREE WITH FOLLOWING MANUFACTURER RECCOMENDED BREAK IN!
thanks--SIRMAXWELL__

Sorry buddy, I will throw your post a like, I hope there are no hard feelings (no pun intended) But I agree to disagree. I will post a video of someone more knowledgeable than me and also definitley smarter than "Motoman" to argue the Manufacturer Reccomended break in is best , which is medium at medium speeds and medium rpms--I guess I would rather call it medium than soft break in because maybe breaking the bike in extremeley soft is bad too .. Motoman substitutes his opinions and anecdotal undocumented personal experiences for real, solid, repeatable scientific facts. Bike Manufactuerers have spent tens maybe hundreds of millions on various R&D and say do a medium break in--but you want to believe a Muppet like Motoman in the website you linked instead cuz he "claims" to have tried it on 20 or 30 engines or whatever and it works for him? Motoman doesnt show graphs on all them and even 20-30 engines is nothing compared to how many engines bike makers test. I dont believe driving it like ya stole it or a hard break in is good for your engine and my previous post gets into why you shouldn't be promoting a hard break in for yourself and for others to follow because you not only increase your chances of having an accident and dying, or getting injured, and/or doing property damage but by promoting the hard break in to others, especially inexperienced people/kids you are increasing their odds (even if slightly) of dying, being injured or doing property damage worse than if they were going slower while breaking in the bike, while making sure it was assembled right and while learning how to ride it!
Also From what I have gathered there is no real gains from a hard break in-- any potential gains such as increases on a DynoJet I hear people claim versus doing the manufactuerer break in are so insignificant they are within the margins of error for the test!--But Maybe thats just my personal experience/opinion so maybe Im being like Motoman now. Here's the video called Hard Break In BULLSHIT!-Part 1 (By Youtuber The Workshop--he calls many people out on bs and often, but not always scientifically or logically explains why) link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij7-LyOFlUU
https://youtu.be/Ij7-LyOFlUU

Description of video: In this video we look at an article that was sent to me about hard break-ins (link below) and the utter bullshit that it contains.

Hope this all makes sense--ride safe, have fun in life, rock on--sirmaxwell

[wlfpck]

First a Yamaha bike is built with a some pretty good/high quality standards as well as being more advanced.

The grom clones use simple pit bike engines. The technology is SUPER old.

As things progress and manufacturing technology improves and such, the break-in methods have changed. Also keep in mind that with larger manufacturers, there's some "pre-break-in" done at the factories.

Now for the thrashing it. I think this one kind of grew out of hand. Past break-in methods were that you should keep RPMs super low and baby the car. With more recent discovers, some people have found evidence that varying the RPM throughout the rev range is a good thing. Varying things through the rev range by slowly building RPMs is a lot different than thrashing it.

Either way, I would not thrash it. I think giving it some time by running it through the RPM range or babying it for a period of time is probably a good thing.

[bogieboy]

im on the hard breakin side of the fence.....LOL i slapped a new top end on my roketa when i bought it second hand and thrashed it after one heat cycle at idle. cylinder pressure is what seats rings. if you dont build pressure, they will not seal as well... just my opinion. one other bit, never hold the same rpms when doing a "hard" breakin. lots of on throttle and engine braking... thats just my opinion, and i have around 7000 trouble free miles on my bike since that breakin....

[duck9191]

Engine load will induce higher cylinder pressure, varying load and rpm keeps the rings moving and wearing in to the walls. you don't want static load or piston speed. obviously don't beat the hell out of it, but short initial 3/4 throttle rips will load the engine and get temps and pressure up to help the ring push to the wall.

give it enough time to get the rotating assembly flushed, meshed and heat cycled once or twice then work it sensibly or the rings will not seat. low compression and oil consumption are not fun to deal with from a new engine.

[sirmaxwell]

im on the hard breakin side of the fence.....LOL i slapped a new top end on my roketa when i bought it second hand and thrashed it after one heat cycle at idle. cylinder pressure is what seats rings. if you dont build pressure, they will not seal as well... just my opinion. one other bit, never hold the same rpms when doing a "hard" breakin. lots of on throttle and engine braking... thats just my opinion, and i have around 7000 trouble free miles on my bike since that breakin....

EDIT:Sorry if I went off the deep end more than a little bit against hard break in followers. I was once on the fence trying to decide to follow the guidlines or break it in at high rpms. In more recent times I have again read probably more than I should've bothered on the subject to make sure I feel like Im right and to learn. I hope no one takes it personally me going against their ideas because debates like this are good for adults who are responsible and cautious to learn new things thru sharing ideas--if I hear one of you tell me why Im wrong then maybe I will try to verify it, but if Im wrong Im wrong and I dont know about you but i would rather be corrected and learn than be wrong!

That was a good last post duck9191! also good post by Wolfpck

To Bogie---dude I just wrote that you dont get the highest cylinder pressure at highest rpm just fyi Cylinder pressure is usually highest way below refline or slightly above half rpms at most USUALLY--To be honest I HAVE NOT seen a cylinder pressure (BMEP) chart for the specific engine the Vader has but I have seen two similar single cylinder motorcyle engine Brake Mean effective pressure charts that back up what I have said and am saying about highest cylinder pressure happening at lower than high rpms and I read a third article and chart about a car engine that was the same deal--MAYBE on some sports engines geared towards making all its power at high end then the cylinder pressure would be highest nearrer to high rpms and in that case maybe you could start to have a reason to try to argue that as being a point for hard break in MAYBE--but the VADER is a far cry from being geared towards top end power!!!...thats totally incorrect about the rings not "seating" if you dont run it hard- MAYBE if you were to run the bike at 2000 RPMS during break in MAYBE you could have issues with glazing and whatever but no one is reccomending RPMS so low that rings dont seat--it just doesnt happen; rings dont fail to seal doing the reccomended break in on 99.99999% of bikes and that last 0.00001% of bikes that were broken in properly but rings dont seal either got defectively made or improperly gapped rings or similar unusual issues...-just letting you know that is not a valid reason for a high rpm hard break in---Motoman also reccomends warming the bike up first before running hard and beating your bike which is kind of a joke. If you know about manufacturing and have worked in a couple shops filling various orders for aerospace companies building engines that took our parts and assembled them like I briefly did or any other high tech manufacturing then you will know the differences between tolerances and clearances and their importance--many designs have tight clearances and if the tolerances in manufacturing is say a few thousandths of an inch off in assembly or fabrication on you're screwed on maybe a whole run of fighter jet and passenger jet fuel delivery systems and they wont work or even a few thousandths of a mm off and maybe they will work but wont run properly under certain situations....

Like with the motorcycles I guess maybe I shouldnt be arguing the issue so hard but the fact are like I said--you are getting the highest cylinder pressure at the lower RPMS so that part of your arguement is done, was never a real point. Basically y'all are seeing it hasn't caused you any major or noticeable problems, yet, and maybe the hard break in never will if the bike makers always make the parts and designs to withstand the abuse. Its obvious that things are settling during break in thats why you get the metal shavings in the oil and when those parts are brand new AND expanded fully as much as they possibly can when hot--that is the biggest they will ever be since they are interacting with other parts and someparts are purposefully getting shaved down. I also made some really good points about if even one in a million bikes is assembled poorly at the factory or by the dealer or by end user (like we put wheels etc on our Vaders) and the poor assembly is going to cause an accident then it is WAY safer to be going at lower speeds during the first few hundred to 1500 miles than it is to be going higher speeds. For that one reason alone of possibly having a one in a million or one in ten thousand chance of having a part or parts that were from a bad factory run or that it was assembled poorly is in my opinion reason enough by itself to at least not promote hard break ins, especially to a forum such as this where likely there are at least some younger kids who are inexperienced and may have assembled a part wrong that could become a hazard during the break in period---and if nothing breaks or falls off or casuses issues during break in then you know to a better degree of certainty have a bike that doesnt have dangerously defective parts on it or parts assembled improperly....I mean hey I always say do what ya like---There is just zero evidence that a hard break in is better for creating power than a medium mfg reccomended break in other than you save time and skip over the getting used to the bike at safer speeds part.

I will agree that with many maybe most or nearly all first world designed and built modern engines that you can nearly fully seat the piston rings after warming up your bike once or twice and then slowly increase rpm to 25% then 50% then 75% then nearly 100% over 20 mins without issues unless there was a defect in mfg or the tolerances werent as good as they thought they could pull off, and that WILL happen in at least a tiny perent of bikes the tolerances will be off from where the maker thinks every bike made will fall within--and that isnt proof that hard break in is better that it can seat rings almost 100% after just one slowly built up WOT run--because a mfg reccomended break in ALSO seats the rings just fine, just takes a little longer for a medium break in, and is safer for the rider and the engine if the tolerances ( and therefore clearances) are off.

So in conclusion I sort of surrender, not to say hard break in people are right--becasue simply tey arent and almost everyone making that arguement hasnt even made great scientific arguements, more along the lines of the ring seat myth, which is a myth unless you pit hard break in versus breaking in the bike at idle or super super low rpms which no one is advocating for anyways---the only better things about hard break in is saving some time and is slightly more dangerous so I dont mind people doing the hard break in too much as ong as they make sure they are riding within their skill level and taking it easy enough to get used to the new bike AND make sure all the parts are assembled correctly and look to be in good shape--If you do all that you PROBABLY wont have issues doing the hard break in but all you achieve is saving time really if anything. There really are way way more things to consider like the valve springs
quality and breaking in...but like I said im done with it, said my piece, do as you like SAFELY and please dont reccomend a hard break in to an inexperienced rider who is also an inexperienced mechanic because they can really probably use a few miles of taking it a medium speed to learn the bike and to make sure they havent forgotten to tighten the axle nut or make sure they havent forgot to replace the brake cable after modding it with new levers or whatever else a rookie might more easily make a mistake on. Ok rambling sone for now I hope. This probably isnt my best work but I hope people see the danger of inexperienced riders and people not used to a new bike or bad mechanics COULD and SOMETIMES DO FACE when getting, assembling and riding a brand new bike and that danger is undisputedly made worse going at higher speeds during a hard break in!!

In the end if the bikes are made and assembled to near perfection and maintained properly, then I really dont think there is often, maybe usually any noticeable difference in the break in styles outcomes on the engine between following the manual and going hard on the break in. I see more of a danger that the rider doesn't know the new bike and should take at least a couple hundred miles to get comfortable with how to operate the bike and the bike's limits. There is also the danger that out of such a huge number of engines made there eventually will be some engines made outside of the target manufarcturing tolerances and clearances that could contribute to a catastrophic early engine failure. Also a small number of the complete bikes will be assembled at the factory or by the dealership or by the end users improperly and it would be safer for the bike rider to be going at lower speeds when they realize the front wheel doesn't have a nut on the axle or whatever --if they were traveling at hugh speeds as in during a hard break-in then the outcomes of an accident would more often be worse. I just am of the camp that sees the hard break in as extreme, a shortcut and only being worse if anything--that pretty much sums it up

[sirmaxwell]

Another video containg a ride and casual talk on engine break ins and why to follow what the manufacturers say and ride at rpms up to 2/3, varying RPMS while Avoiding keeping the same RPM for long distances and Avoiding ragging the ever loving sh*t out of your brand new bike from mile 1. The video includes a quick clip of a BMW race bikes representative who explains that for their very expensive race bikes BMW pre- breaks in the engine for 500 miles for the customer (and they charge 68,000 Euros for those limited production bikes!)
The creator of this video also explains how big bike makers like Yamaha did briefly test the 5.400,000 engines they sold in 2017, but Yamaha is not spending the money to properly break in most of their "regular" production bikes because that would cost a ridiculous amount of money in fuel alone, not to really mention oil, oil filters, labor costs for employees, and the massive warehouse or outdoor spaces they would need to undertake breaking in 5.5 million engines per year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IRIz5rTgR8