Why shouldn't you buy a clone?

[Greggl4321]

So, someone very well respected said buying a clone would be a mistake as opposed to a Honda Grom.


This breaks my ❤️


How can it not be true? He didn't explain why, and it probably doesn't matter, but I won't be driving to the level that he drives or demand the performance that he does, I'm not sure if he had this in mind. I just want a little inexpensive commuter



Thoughts? Why exactly shouldnt one buy a Chinese bike? Isn't half of it the Honda name and the fuel injection?

[PhildoScaggins]

The real answer is maintenance. It takes wrenching usually weekly to keep these bikes up to snuff. When you get it you need to loctite every bolt on the bike pretty much. After that its frequent oil changes and inspecting bolts, chain slack, etc. I've read quite a few of your posts asking these kind of questions. My advice to you would be to either hunt for a used grom, but given your concerns about speed because you're a big dude I would recommend a csc sg250 or tt250. the csc bikes require less maintenance and setup. Just my 2 cents.

[Greggl4321]

I don't really have a speed concern, just want to do about 55mph



You said ect... What other weekly maintenance needs to be performed?

[PhildoScaggins]

I would say its more about doing pre-ride inspections. Checking for loose bolts, making sure everything is well lubricated, checking wheel and swing arm bearings stuff like that. That being said, I don't know how comfortable you would be on a mini. I also dont think a mini is going to get you up to 55mph as an average speed. 45 is a much better crusing speed on these bikes. I just personally think that given your height and weight you will want something a bit bigger that is also more responsive. If youre worried about the wrenching I'm sure you could find a used grom for sub 2k prices.

[Greggl4321]

I suppose I could, I'm in San Diego and I see a used Grom going for $1800 USD -- I get $600 USD a month. I've got 1 more month to get a China bike or 2 more months to get a used Honda Grom if I'm lucky. I cannot wait to get a bike!

The fact that the Honda Grom engine is the price of the China bike is a bit disturbing -


How are motorcycle built? I'm really unsure as to what needs to be done for the maintenance or how to do it other than what you listed. Is there a manual of some sort (iirc Haynes?)

[PhildoScaggins]

The honda motors are much much stronger. They are more well built overall. Things like axles and swing arm bolt, brakes, etc. The only frequent maintenance that will really be required for a grom would be oil changes and chain and valve adjustments. A few youtube videos will show you how to do them. You could also stiffen your front forks and maybe buy a stiffer rear shock to accommodate your size.

[Greggl4321]

How many miles can you expect to get out of a clone before it starts to break?

[wheelbender6]

The Honda Grom is so reliable that your great grandson or great grandaughter will be riding it to high school. Most of us do not need a monkey bike to last that long.

[culcune]

You could look at it in a few ways. The Grom will be the most dependable, assuming the seller wasn't some young kid stunting it and not caring for it. There is a chance of buying someone's mess. However, my guess is you are more likely to find sellers who are, or think they are, ready to move up to a bigger bike. That would be a seller you want to find.

It has been said that to own a Chinese bike, one has to have a sense of humor. And possibly backup transportation. I have not heard or recall anyone here having a catosrophic failure with their bike, although some have insinuated it. When breaking it down, it is often found later on the member had done something wrong. Once fixed, what sounded like a bike ready to go to the dump or pushed off a bridge, has now become that member's prized possession. The Vader has been well sorted out, but you will need to keep on top of it. There are probably some 'must-do' mods, such as sprockets. Vader owners will chime in with their suggestions based on your commuting needs. There are sources for parts specifically for Vaders out there, and some or at least one, version uses actual Grom parts such as motor mounts and body plastics.

I have little doubt with this site's members advice a Vader can be a good deal for you, but check out some Groms now (Vaders, too if they are around) for sale to get a feel for what they are like.

[PhildoScaggins]

How many miles can you expect to get out of a clone before it starts to break?

I got about 200 miles before I had to replace the engine mount bolts. after about 700 the top exhaust bolt snapped and I bought a low mount exhaust. At about 1200 miles the exhaust studs snapped and I attempted getting a new head but was unable to figure out the timing chain. I just bought a zs190 for it and called it good. As wheelbender said, the honda is that much more reliable, if I hadn't been so cheap and waited a bit I would've opted for a real honda. I would've spent less time wrenching, more time riding.

[Greggl4321]

Phildo, is that something that could have been fixed?


I mean to say isn't that something the community here could have helped you with?

[PhildoScaggins]

Phildo, is that something that could have been fixed?


I mean to say isn't that something the community here could have helped you with?

Probably. I bought one head that didn't fit, the second one I couldn't get the timing right. It wasn't until after I bought the zs190 that I found out I could buy a new 125cc motor for $200. I spent $80 on those two heads. Another thing to consider when buying a China bike is resell value. You could drive a used grom for 4 years and probably still get $1000 bucks for it. A grom clone would not get anywhere near that. I'm just telling you the moves I wish I made. After all the mods I did to mine (not including the new engine) I could've bought a used grom that would've preformed better and I wouldn't have had to do much work on it at all. That being said people out there have put quite a bit of miles on the grom clones. I still think being able to resell the bike is a huge deal. If you like it and want to go bigger, you could still sell it for a decent chunk and have a sweet down payment on a $250.

[Greggl4321]

What were the issues with the timing chain? Is there a video or tutorial of how to fix the timing?

[PhildoScaggins]

What were the issues with the timing chain? Is there a video or tutorial of how to fix the timing?

I'm not really sure why I couldnt get the timing right. I got fed up and just decided to buy a zs190 since thats what I wanted to do anyways. I'm sure someone could have helped me, but I have limited patience when I've been trying to fix something for a while and keep failing.

[franque]

Before you remove the timing gear/tension on the chain, after the motor is at TDC, you mark the sprocket/chain with either a paint marker or nail polish at asymmetric places so it's easier to line back up.

[Whisky]

I get on my clone and go, I don't check anything anymore. I would never fork out $$ for a Grom.

[wlfpck]

If you are mechanically inclined... a Grom/Razkull clone is not terrible.

Here's why...

From the factory, these bikes are very cheap. You can get them delivered to your door for under $1500. Sometimes you can get one delivered to your door for under $1000.

The reason these are cheap is that they use old technology. The clones use a carburetor instead of fuel injection. This means that you have to have the patience to do plug chops to get the jetting right for your bike.

The engine is held in with 2 bolts. These bolts should be replaced with class 10.9 or 12.9. There are people who have sheared the bolts. There are people who have not. It's better just to replace them.

There's no owner's manual/instruction manual. Therefore, you're kind of at the mercy of forums or taking a voltmeter and tracing things out yourself. For instance the "owner's manual" for my Icebear Fuerza was in broken English and the black and white photo of the motorcycle didn't even match. If you get the Boom or the Taotao, I'm not even sure you get an "owner's manual". To figure out wiring and such, it takes patience to sit there with a multimeter and figure out which wire is the ground and so forth.

Dealership locations... if you live by one of the dealerships that sell the clones... you're in luck if anything ever happens and you can't fix something. If you don't... you're pretty much going to have to fix things yourself.

Quality of material... Honda is a big brand. They have very high tolerance standards that factories have to meet. They also have very good QA/QC on incoming raw material. The clones... this is up in the air. While weld quality and such looks good on the surface... I don't know if anyone has had one for 5+ years. Who know what will happen. When I got mine, I took all the plastics off and visually inspected the frame to see/check for any cracked welds that were painted over, any rust spots on the frame from paint being scratched off during transport, etc. This again is a patience thing.

On the good side... if you plan on swapping to the ZS190cc, it is a plug and play for the Grom clones. There's no adapter plates for engine mounting. The clones all use a carburetor already so there's no EFI to carburetor conversion. No speedometer/gauge wiring issues. Etc.

I never had any problems with my Icebear Fuerza. I did end up selling it because the father-in-law was in an accident and the wife was not happy about me having a motorcycle. I have since then picked up a Honda Grom. Reason being... I got a great deal on my Grom new. I never had a chance to build a Grom so I want to do that. The wife wouldn't let me get a 300cc or more to make sure I never ride on the highway. :|

The levers on the Grom definitely feel more solid from the factory than the clone. But... if you plan on going all out and modifying the clone... this point kind of goes away.

So... to make it simple...

If you are mechanically inclined and have the patience and you plan on swapping the engine... get the Grom Clone.

If you're looking to change EVERYTHING out on the bike... consider the clone.

If you just want to putt around town on a small motorcycle... get a Honda Grom.