The Purrfect Project (Hellcat) [Archive]

deadwood83

04-23-2020, 11:41 PM

Well, it went together pretty nicely.

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Handlebar mounts are garbage. Brakes need to be bled.
Stock alignment is surprisingly decent.
Rear sprocket was loose.
Clutch and brake levers were in different physical planes.

Unlike what I have seen in videos of the Boom, there were no shavings in the gas tank.

Not sure why they bothered installing pads on the rear brakes. The oil on the rotors means those pads are instantly garbage.

After using the stock controls, I have no idea why people change them out. I actually quite like the factory levers.

Can confirm the shifter is way too long. I wear a size 13 shoe, and I kept checking to see if I had shifted.

Getting to neutral from first gear is hilariously difficult. It's like a minigame you play when riding the bike.

I measured the oil that shipped in the bike. 1/2 teaspoons. Replaced with valvoline conventional for motorcycles. Same oil I run in my XJ.

The mirrors are useless. You can see the sky, your elbow, or the fence to the side of you, but almost nothing behind. They must go.

This thing is FUN. I adore this stupid little bike. WHat's more, I hate how much I like it straight out of the box. Compared with my mid-sized XJ, this made me feel like some sort of parking lot champion. I felt invincible. Tiny turn radius, 2mph balance, etc etc. I rode it for 2 miles just in my little gated community.

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The build, while very fun, was punctuated by rain. I was rather damp by the end of it. After riding, adjusting, riding, it feels pretty good. The jetting actually works quite well at my altitude. It is still a little lean, because it doesn't like 8k much, but a VM22 is arriving Saturday to fix that.

Mods I did not plan on doing:
Replacing the boomerangs for genuine Grom. I was having so much fun that I forgot the tires weren't broken in.... so I was riding the bike, then I was riding the road for about 6 feet after trying to lay into a corner like on the XJ.

Total damage:
- My favorite pair of Dockers :ohno:
- A good 5" scrape on the tank fairing, left side
- Flat spot ground down on the ball end of the clutch lever
- Left side boomerang is shot. The signal now dangles down like a sad balloon from a birthday party one week ago.
- Learning the bike has no safety shut offs.
- The mental trauma of remembering how annoying a scrape that barely breaks the skin can be.

Also, I submitted my information for the MCO to Q9. We shall see how long that takes to get here.

Now, first order of business: Call my local Honda dealers and see who has some white boomerangs in stock. :lmao:

RedCrowRides

04-24-2020, 06:48 AM

Not ragging on you at all, but this is like the 3rd set of HellKat assembly photos that all show no front fender installed , is HellKat just not sending you guys front fenders or what?

Rangerscott

04-24-2020, 09:11 AM

Paint those zinc bolts. Zinc doesnt last long getting dirty or being out in the weather.

deadwood83

04-25-2020, 11:49 PM

Not ragging on you at all, but this is like the 3rd set of HellKat assembly photos that all show no front fender installed , is HellKat just not sending you guys front fenders or what?

I can't speak for others, but the fitment of the front fender was so poor I did not feel comfortable putting it on without the assistance of a heat gun. The fender is on now.

Paint those zinc bolts. Zinc doesnt last long getting dirty or being out in the weather.

Noted. I don't trust most modern stainless fasteners for corrosion resistance either. I went zinc so I could get a higher shear rating.

Some progress towards where I was right after assembly. I could not find white Hellcat boomerangs, so I ordered some Honda boomerangs in white. No, they won't match perfectly. I rationalized it by saying it was step 1 in the eventuality of having actual Grom panels. As a temporary workaround, I applied a liberal coating of gelled cyoanoacrilate and held the boomerang in place for a few minutes.

I tried a clone VM22 on tie bike and it was not great. I didn't like the lack of choke control on the bars. The PZ25 clone on the bike is actually quite good! It is also jetted quite well for the thin air here. Stuck without paperwork (aka plate) I contemplated doing an oil change, but realized I did that 1.8 miles ago.

Instead, I took off the bodywork and started analyzing everything.

The plastic looks like it was made for a child's electric ride-on car, but thicker. If I elect to keep it, I expect I may try and reinforce it with some woven fiber sheet and epoxy on the back. Probably less expensive to just get Honda parts though.

From what I can tell, the axle bolts are made of some sort of super-cheese masquerading as metal. That might be an exaggeration, but they are easily scratched by mild steel. I have added the axles to my "hit list."

I considered removing the evap canister and hosing, but did not have a golf tee handy to block the intake from the old evap. May as well let it catch whatever until the ZS190 goes in.

Unlike most others' reports, my motor mount bolts were tight. And I mean tight. I got each one to move slightly, at which point I heard the 'click' of a very mild friction weld. I went over all the other bolts, and they were all actually tight with the exception of the choke cable. That was loose and floppy from factory. I noticed the RPMs slightly climbing when turning to full right lock so I made some adjustments at the throttle tube; solved.

One issue with my bike, is the idle adjustment screw. Currently the bike idles at about 2k. I started to back the idle off, and quickly found out the idle screw has no tension. I wager it's not very functional. I tightened it down a bit to avoid any potential air leaks.

It will take me some time to get used to a high-revving single cylinder. My past single cylinder experience was with an F650CS, and it tends to live under ~5k. Of course, the 4-cylinder Yam has almost no vibration whatsoever at any RPM. There's a certain buzz/vibration above 5000 I think I just need to get used to. Either that, or it's just the way the noise of the bike changes around that speed. Probably the latter.

While tightening everything, and applying Red-N-Tacky to moving parts, I got some more personal time with the exhaust. It is.... not particularly confidence-inspiring. Searching through oodles of facebook posts in a few different groups indicates that this exhaust might be good to go since the two-piece nature allows rotation of the midpipe section.
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I actually quite like how quiet the bike is. It could be a little louder, but just a little. I'd like to not spend a fortune on the muffler, but cheap, quiet, and flowy tend not to go together. I am wondering if I got two perforated baffles, then bent both of them while sealing off the sides facing each other if that would create a hybrid dual baffle chamber. That sounds like a lot of work though, and I feel like saving my big work motivation for my old Yam. I'll probably just get a perforated through-baffle and then tightly wrap thick-gauge stainless pot scrubbers around it. Unsure what muffler I'll go with, but the fake carbon mufflers seem cheap enough on the 'bay.

Some research on the ZS190 has shown that the stator from the 125 should be a direct swap. I already knew the gear indicator would swap easily as well. This means it is a true plug-and-play engine swap. Stator and gear indicator are the only electronics (apart from the coil) that connect to the engine. I care a little less about the extra power and what really excites me is having a 5th gear. Without a sprocket upgrade, 1st gear on the stock Hellcat is useless. 2nd is short enough to start from a stop with ease.

I verified once more that the headlight bulb socket is electrically an H4/9003 and ordered some fleabay LED headlamps. I ordered a pair for a whopping $11. Worst case scenario, I am out the equivalent of about two dollar menu items these days. I don't think these little pitbike engines were ever meant to drive the electrical load we're pushing on them.

Speaking of electrical load, my research also drew me to the fixed timing curve of the CN CDI units. I read horror stories (and saw pictures) of the ZS190 having a touch of preignition on startup and snapping the starter chain. So there are two paths forward:

hope for the best, and if something breaks replace the starter chain and the left side engine casing.
Get a $50 CDI with decreased advance under 2k rpm.

I have a hunch which one will be less expensive in the long run. I ordered up the T-Bolt EZ Start CDI with 5-wire adapter.

Next up was an examination of the forks. The right fork leg is a solid 3mm proud of the triple tree. That probably explains why I suddenly lose confidence when releasing the handlebars. The hellcat is one squirrely feline out of the box. Well, at least compared to bikes with wheels 50% larger...

I'll need to wait on that particular fix until I can hang it underneath a ladder. I don't trust the anodizing on the forks to withstand my typical wood dowel/rubber mallet adjustment method.

I played with the headlight some more this evening. While it is weaker than my resistance to buying bike parts, the beam pattern is actually pretty decent. The hot spot is not quite on the cutoff, but closer than a lot of other Chinese headlights I have seen. What I really need though, is to fight the urge to retrofit a real projector into the housing. It would be very convenient to swap in say, A morimoto Mini h1.

Am I the only person who finds the stock DRL to be incredibly ugly? Like, seriously. There has to be a way to backlight just the blue plastics. I wonder if I could back the blue glowy bit with some EL wire and run the LE wire off the DRL socket.
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Dunno. Thoughts, anyone?

scoot newb

04-26-2020, 04:35 PM

Sounds nice.

Yes completely remove the canister. Then keep only the vent line that comes from the gas tank and the vent for the crank case.

The stator on the 125 IIRC is not a direct swap. There isn't anything wrong with the stator in the 190. It is plug in play for the hellcat. The wires are the same color and works fine.

You want to make sure you get stronger engine bolts. Also pick up a Grom rear axle and swing arm bolt (they are the same part number), Grom cush drive and hub. The originals on the hellcat will break/bend with the 190.

Replace all fuel lines with silicon fuel lines, I went with 1/4 inch from tank to fuel filter into carb. Get a nicer fuel filter and don't forget to change the oil filter (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FZG4T48) once in a while.

When you install the 190 you want the manifold facing the rear of the bike not the front. You'll notice the top of the carb comes in close contact with the mount for the petcock. You will no longer be able to mount the petcock there. I chose not to use a petcock and plan on grinding off the mount.

I have the zinc coated engine bolts. Metric ratings are different than imperial so the strength should be 10.9.

Don't worry about the choke cable that will be gone as soon as the 190 goes in with the PE carb.
Depending on where you ordered your ZS from most come with a kit. Pitsterpro for example includes clutch and throttle cable as well as everything else you need. Also use the coil wire that comes with the kit.

Recently ZS started shipping motors with a "keeper" for the shift star to prevent the detent arm from popping out and going in front of the shift star. Even if you just ordered the motor most likely it is not going to be from the latest China batch and will not have the keeper. Without the keeper... - false neutrals, popping in and out of gear which can lead to a disaster. You need to do this fix for sure if yours does not have it.

If your carb is jetted and somewhat tuned starting the ZS isn't a problem. Use the choke if you have to, don't touch the throttle, then let it warm up. Set idle to 2k. One thing I've never broken was the starter chain.

If you can cancel the ZS 190 order and get a real Daytona 190 do it. Even with the shift star fix the tranny is garbage.

T-Bolt EZ Start CDI with 5-wire adapter.
I have this but haven't put it on yet.
https://imgur.com/od6LQcg.jpg

I don't think you need the 5-wire adapter. IIRC the CDI on the hellcat is the same one used on the Quantum 150 and has a connector like...
https://partskit.com/product/103271

I would not get that exhaust. I would get something from Kepspeed (https://www.motorkit.com/en/5193-down-exhaust#/page-2) or here (https://www.motorkit.com/en/5677-exhaust-onder). That thing is loud and has a smaller diameter header. Grom exhausts are not a direct fit. The 125 and the 190 connect to the motor at an angle.

I hate the stock headlight assembly. Mad Eye or Harley bucket light for the win.
If you're going to replace the bulb, not all will fit in the odd headlight housing even though the connection (H4) is correct. If you have taken it off you will see how the main bulb goes in. These fit.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FGDT6Q4

Don't forget LED running light bulb

These control levers will mount on the stock perch and are decent.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08318KDF2

AllsBalls wheel bearings for sure. Don't skimp on a cheap universal fender delete. https://www.motodynamic.com/ Ones for a 2014 grom work and if you decide to forego the rear turn signal for an integrated turnsignal/brake light combo do not skimp on that either. Those inexpensive ones are not bright enough to be seen in the day.

The clone PE carbs that come with the ZS are hit or miss. Look into a genuine Keihin PE 28 or Nibbi. Don't forget a jet kit 38/120 is a good place to start.

You'll also want an oil catch can if you plan on running the motor hard at top speed. These motors are notorious for blow back and you don't want oil all over the rear tire at 75/80.

Also on the 2018/2019s the voltage regulator bracket... the welds that hold it onto the frame are garbage. The bracket will break off. But once you do the canister delete you can bolt the voltage regulator directly to the frame. Yes it will reach.

https://imgur.com/ZNSYfjr.jpg

The suspension is awful. I haven't started on that yet.

Last but not least, a universal alarm remote start will plug right into the aux port up front by the headlight. I love it.

https://youtu.be/SyQKVsGujNs

Not that I know everything just going over everything I learned the hard way.

https://imgur.com/1n5Gzd1.jpg

deadwood83

04-27-2020, 10:33 AM

THanks for sharing your experience Scoot! Sounds like our paths are not too dissimilar.

I plan to keep the stock choke lever, and I would like to keep it functional. It looks like polini makes some parts that night be right up my alley.

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Would just need to measure the choke parts and order the proper size. Not this exactly, but something similar could work. Making the bracketry isn't too hard. I made some custom bracketry for the old XJ that I think came out really well.

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It is indeed too late to cancel the 190 order, and I was already planning on the shift star mod. The cost difference between the two motors is not insignificant, and I can rebuild the transmission (with Daytona parts) about two times over for the price differential. If I wanted top speed from the bike, then I would def go Daytona. I just want something for city streets that has enough power to get out of a sticky situation, and maybe do a canyon climb.

Plus, coming from the Yamaha XJ world, I am no stranger to transmission work (https://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/xj750-engine-removal-and-split-pictures.38545/).

The cush drive rubbers, swingarm bolt, rear axle, and front axle are cheap enough I will be ordering them soon. May I ask what made you swap the rear hellcat sprocket carrier? It is not exactly an anemic part, and the genuine Honda hub is showing as ~$150 which is a tough pill to swallow once you consider that also requires a different mounting scheme.
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If I had to guess, failures would probably be due to loose bolts gradually egging the holes in the Hellcat hub. 20hp (more like 16-17 at my altitude) is not a lot to put through such a beefy piece; especially when it is rubber-damped.

I did see the kepspeed exhaust over and over. I even priced one out. Came to ~$280 delivered. It is difficult to rationalize that on a bike that will not be my primary ride by any means. I do really like their swingarm as well; for no other reason than it uses actual bearings and isn't just direct tube to tube contact. I think if I ever do that, I will need to upgrade the rear shock at the same time. I suspect the friction of the stock swingarm is part of what keeps the rear shock from bottoming out lol.

I wholly agree on the suspension though. Rather garbaggio. Going over speed bumps makes the front forks wheeze and gurgle like a terminally ill pneumonia patient. I will be dumping the current fluid (once I have plates) and replacing it with some Redline D4 ATF as a temporary cleaning fill. It also visco's out to be between a 15W and 20W fork oil at almost all temperatures.... and I have like 12 quarts of it but no cars with an automatic transmission.

You are correct on that part where I did not need to order the 5-pin adapter. Oh well, it is what it do.

RE: Carbs. I looked at the Nibbi, and looked at what little video content there was available. I'll be honest, it just looks like a coated clone carb with a couple aluminum pieces and a dremel polish. Certainly convenient and less than a genuine Keihin, but I was born in the hellfire of 4x CV carbs with passive air balancing on a 40 year old abused motor, so how bad can one slide carb be? (insert lightning and sudden downpour sound effects)

I just want my paperwork to get here so I can actually do a real riding eval.

scoot newb

04-27-2020, 02:02 PM

I suspect some of the clone carbs are defective. Just I mean, these China parts are night and day if you're used to Japanese products.

The hub carrier for the Grom should only be around $60 for an OEM one. I've seen photos in Clone groups where the 190 damaged the stock hub or so the posters said. So rather than risk it I spent the $60. I also had the bug at the time. You know? Where you keep dumping money and fixing something for no good reason. :lol:

Yeah the stock swinger is awful and those chain tensioners.

If you know how to fab and all that this will be great. I don't know how to do any of that nor do I have the tools. This bike, mine came damaged out of the box and I had to learn to wrench and gather tools if I wanted to get around at the time. I had messed with 2t dirt bikes back in the day but the ones from Japan never needed work. They just kept pouring it on. But an 80cc was 5k.

If I could do it again, I would get the Daytona. I don't like the idea of transmission failure at less the 5k miles and I doubt I could do it on my own. I've seen them for $1100 shipped with a coupon code, plus that comes with a 4v head.

I want to go for a ride but it is raining.

deadwood83

04-27-2020, 10:35 PM

The hub carrier for the Grom should only be around $60 for an OEM one. I've seen photos in Clone groups where the 190 damaged the stock hub or so the posters said. So rather than risk it I spent the $60. I also had the bug at the time. You know? Where you keep dumping money and fixing something for no good reason. :lol:

This hits close to home.

I suspect some of the clone carbs are defective. Just I mean, these China parts are night and day if you're used to Japanese products.

Trufax. Though I have faith in my ability to adjust. For 4-wheeled vehicles, I bought my first non-BMW last March (2019). It's a Hyundai Veloster Turbo, R-Spec trim. Pretty happy with that little car. I like it even more when I pay insurance / fuel on the M3.

I actually have complete faith that you would be able to work on a bike transmission. You basically have two sticks with some finger-destroyers on them, then a third stick lives below. The third stick has some two-pronged beefed-up pickle forks (like the food) which push the finger destroyers back and forth. That's about it.

The finger destroyers have these cheeky little grooves so they can combine like Megazord. This allows a free-wheeling finger destroyer to couple with a driven finger destroyer, giving you power output. Megazord combine link highlighted with blue.

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In other news, my front door got blocked today. See, I have a glass door in front of my... door. The UPS driver must have figured I was not on the interior of the residence because he put the freaking thing right up against the glass. Either that or he/she is a funny guy/gal. It did give me a bit of a laugh.

Also, a shout-out to literally the darkest corner of my home.
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It came with a special Carburetor. I have dubbed it, "Y'All."
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It's great because wherever I go, I have Y'All with me!

So far, stator is looking like a direct swap. Hellcat stator Ohms-out higher, so it either has thinner gauge wire or more windings. Since people say the ZS190 doesn't charge the battery below 2k rpm, my bet is on the latter. The Hellcat appears to have a DC rectifrier which means.....
8-pole-capable stator rectifiers are cheap and plentiful! 8 pole stator: ~30 bucks. Rectifrier, ~20-30 bucks.

I looked at the VIN inspection form for the state. It has a field for displacement. Looks like the big swap has to happen after I get the VIN inspection done.

deadwood83

04-29-2020, 11:52 PM

Took a wee trip on the angry kitten to the my local emissions place where they performed a VIN inspection.
They marked the year as 2019 which concerns me a little, since I think the title is going to say 2020 (build date 9/2019). They also marked it as a scooter, which I find hilarious.

Maybe is is a scooter, who knows? That just means I will have a really fast scooter. :lmao:

Also, got the shift star fix done while the motor was on my living room floor. 10.9 bolts are next to the motor, new clutch cable is next to the motor, fender eliminator is on, stereotypical grom mirrors are on.

Now with the VIN inspection over..... IT IS TIME. Stator swap, gear indicator swap, and motor.

I have Kitaco brackets for the oil cooler, but the mount points on the included oil cooler do not line up. Am I about to drop $200 on a Kitaco? Oh heck no!. I'm going to fab up a way to use the oil cooler as it sits. Hoping that I get a letter from Q9 with my MCO, etc in the next 24hrs so I can get plates and be on the road!

After that,
Bearings (where I have garage space), axles and swingarm bolt (where I have space), cush drive (again, space), front fork oil. I will have to evaluate how everything sits at that point before going further.

deadwood83

05-03-2020, 10:49 AM

The motor is mostly in. The oil cooler I got with my kit is vastly different in mounting style. I keep going back and forth between using it and getting a different one. Photo shamelessly clipped from the swap shop facebook page to show style.
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The tabs are too close for the Kitaco mount to slide between them, and too far to actually use the mount. They are also on the wrong plane of existence to bolt to the mounting tabs for the Kitaco oil cooler spot.

I have an old Yamaha FZ600 oil cooler that has almost perfect spacing, but it requires Yamaha's old style fittings (which I think are DIN2343 18mm, clamped taper collar with backing nut hydraulic fittings) and those are crazy hard to find with a banjo at the other end of the hose other than old Yam hoses, which are all 12mm banjos. Finding an oil cooler in the US which isn't just a Chinese unit sold for 2-3x the price is.... difficult. If the Zhonger case used M12 banjos it would be a lot easier. There are some coolers that should fit, but they just use slip-over barbs on the cooler side, and I do not trust those to hold any sort of pressure whatsoever.

The carb fit was.... tight. and I mean tight. I had to unmount the petcock. My Hellcat has some additional bracketry that is different than what I have seen in others' photos. Oh, and that throttle slide cap is NOT coming off without dismounting the whole carb. The throttle cable was also almost too short. I had to pursue alternate routing, but verified there is still a wee bit of slack from lock to lock.

My belmetric bolts , lock washers, and nylocs worked perfectly. I definitely overtightened them a touch which is OK, they are really one-time-use items at the cost. I went until I felt the tiny mechanical squeak of a friction weld. They will not be coming loose. Red loctite really wouldn't do much due to the heat cycling, and I didn't have any green loctite.

The clutch cable recommended by folks on the swap page is too long by about .5-1.25CM. It is workable, but the handlebar adjustment is at the point where, on my Yamaha, I would say "whoa, this cable is overdue for replacement." It also has a super short throw. Dry runs (just going through the gears while rocking back and forth) indicate the shifting works, but I also have some doubts about real world longevity. While typing this, I just had a thought. There's a very real possibility the arm was installed off-index from factory. I'll have to check that. The shift star fix went in without a fuss. I was even able to perform the mod without removing the clutch basket. That's a win in my books, especially since all my impact tools are away from home.

Stator dropped right in without a fuss. This engine is a Gen3, which means the flywheel can take, at max, an 84 or 85mm diameter stator. Luckily the Hellcat stator is 83mm, but it means that an 8-pole upgrade in future might be a touch tricky. I did find a unit on AliExpress that is 8 pole-5wire, and lists the diameter as 85mm. That might work.

While things were apart, I took the opportunity to replace all the fuel lines with steel and fiber-reinforced 3/16" ethanol-rated Prestone lines; part number #FU0316.

I looked at the possibility of moving the regulator. I did not want to relocate my ignition coil because any spot I looked at had really mediocre grounding. This has proven rather difficult so far. I will need to stare it down some more. As a plus, the reg bracket looks like it is welded all the way across, so it should last ~30-60 days.

I don't like the way the filter kicks out to the side. I would prefer if it has a slight angle and taper to better tuck under the fairing. I'm trying to keep this a little bit low-key and that red filter mushed slightly out of the fairing isn't helping lol. (I ordered a 15* angled dual stage filter while typing this).

The exhaust.... is hopeless. The weld booger was so intense that it has less than 1cm opening at the head. I guess I'm waiting for the exhaust to come in. The cheapo muffler I ordered is just a tightly packed glasspack. I was hoping it was an open can design so I could make/use my own packing. No such luck. I have plans to modify the "DB killer" tip insert so that it will have better flow but still block most direct engine pulses. Basically I'm going to skeletonize the sides but still keep the tube 'cap' in place. This should act sort of like the "lollipop mod" on other four strokes which is meant to reduce exhaust pulse reversion. It won't have adjustability, but it also won't leave a screw and nut sticking out the side of my pipe.

Things left to do:

Exhaust. Going to try and get a genuine Grom gasket for more forgiveness. Also replacing the crappy nuts with actual exhaust flange nuts.
Modify brake lever for ZS190 fit
Tune carb. I am at 4400' elevation, so I have preliminary jetting at 122/40. Reports show success with ~125/38 at sea level, so 122/40 in theory should be really close.
Swingarm bolt / axles
Fork oil
Front end alignment
Wheel bearings
Lube all cables
Put in Cush drive rubbers
Wheel bearings. I might put these off. Prelim inspection of the front wheel during assembly showed a sealed bearing. I don't hear or feel any noise or looseness either. They might last a season. If they start to fail, it's a fast process.

Q9 sent the title on May 1st. 8 days after submitting "product registration" on their site.

scoot newb

05-03-2020, 03:49 PM

Take some pictures.

Also 125/38 at sea level is with the Genuine PE. The clone carbs I have seen that come with pitsters kits are setup 40/115 needle clip 2nd from top. They actually run okay during the summer for people in NY albeit the idle the pilot is too rich. I did 120/38 needle in center.

I could not get my carb tuned at all when it was in the 30's and 40.

Chrisguga

05-03-2020, 06:18 PM

deadwood83

05-03-2020, 09:30 PM

This is quite a build. I definitely get the idea of treating like a kit bike and the fun and challenge of the build, but I can’t help but think you’d just be better off buying a a Grom when you’re changing so much on the bike.

I guesstimate I enjoy projects about equally with riding, and I already have a bike that is pretty sweet for riding. I really wanted a project and as much as I hate admitting it, I never ever intended to not engine swap. You can see from my brief overview of last year's big project push (http://www.chinariders.net/showpost.php?p=333877&postcount=4) that I tend to go a little overboard. I would say that as far as things go for me, I am leaving this one pretty well alone and just doing the bare necessities.

Plus, the market here is absolutely insane. People are just out of their minds with asking prices.
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4k out the door + ZS190 + brackets and everything else I have already had to buy + gas tank (or 2300+ used)

Hellcat puts me 1300 ahead of a used 2014 Grom minus the PO's neglect/stunting/etc.

The XJ has been sitting the past week because the exhaust needs adjustment. Aftermarket means it needs a repack. Getting a touch lean in the high revs where the 4-2 scavenges a bit too well unless it has good packing. UPS elected to mark my packing as undeliverable due to 'unmet security requirement.' I live behind a gate so it's not unusual for delivery drivers to just mark as undeliverable if they are running behind on a route.

Customs paperwork on the exhaust was completed yesterday so... I guess that means I might see it in the future. Maybe even this week. Jets-r-us got me my package rather quickly. I love those guys. I now have pilots 38-42 and mains 115-125. I'd totally colortune the 190 but Gunson wants $25 for the 12mm adapter :lmao:

I also found one of these little guys:
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Hello again my friend, working clutch controls. I haven't had the chance to miss you yet, but I know I would! Might have to cast a diff size lead slug on the end of the cable, but that should be no biggie.

I also figured out what I want to do about an oil cooler! This lil guy is about 10" wide at the core, which happens to be about the same size as the massive gap between the plastics left by removing the airbox. Would a curved KLX cooler look better? Yes. Was this less expensive? By about 3-4x. This whole DIY oil cooler setup was about $81. All parts are pressure rated to at least 300PSI. 1500PSI for the lines.
Red = cut off
Blue = Bend 90* to attach to bracket shaped like |________| so the long face can mount to the kitaco bracket and the bent cooler 'wings' will mount to the end parts.
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Add a splash of AN-6 Braided stainless tubing:
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Finish off the engine side with some M10x1.25 to AN-6 fittings:
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In my headspace and memory of fluid dynamics from college it should be straight-up Bernoulli in the oil cooler. The cooler has oversized passages compared to the engine, so fluid speed should be slower within the rad compared to the engine. This will allow more time for the temperature to fall. That said, heat transfer is proportional to delta T so who knows. Plus once the engine reaches steady-state equilibrium it's all moot anyway.

I am jealous of scoot_newb's tail light. That thing is bright as frig. I am a little too cheap to buy it.

Rangerscott

05-03-2020, 10:24 PM

Yea. People want just about what they paid for new when they bought their groms.

scoot newb

05-03-2020, 11:52 PM

A grom is 4k out the door new. a 190-ed clone is 1/2 that

deadwood83

05-07-2020, 11:43 PM

I suck at taking photos. Once I start working I just get in the zone. Bike is plated, insured, etc.

THe Taotao swingarm SUCKS. THe adjusters are awful, and the whole thing springs outwards if the axle bolt isn't pinching it tight. Oh, and MotorKit appears to have discontinued shipping to the USA.

However, some creative searching on Ebay revealed a true gem.
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I have never seen a swinger from a Grom so cheap! Says it includes the guts too. This will let me play with bushings and chain adjusters. Maybe even get around to a used Z125 shock. The rear damper is effective in absorbing bumps, but it is woefully under-damped.

New exhaust is in shipping from China. In the interim, I made the stock exhaust bolt up (though it has... two mount points). The 190 is a whooooole lot louder than the 125. Same exhaust system, and this thing's a bit of a racket. Holy smokes is it ever fun though. It just feels like it wants to wheelie when you take off in first. Not sure how to describe the feel of this bike with the 190. I would perhaps liken it to a squirrel on ritalin.

OK so everyone's fave question. With my fat butt on the bike, sitting fully upright, it tops out at ~67. Full tuck gets me about 71, I have no cell mount, so GPS measuring was done with a pace car, my buddy with his phone in a BMW 335. Right now it;s running the 122 main and I think it wants a 125. It's really really close though. 125 might be a bit too much. Throttle right now is pretty crisp and has no bog. The thing just wants to go. Thinking fatter main because if you roll off throttle really fast, there is the tiiiiiniest bit of rpm surge. I'll pop the 125 in tomorrow and test.

As far as startup, I think I have the sucker dialed pretty well in. It fires up like an EFI bike. Half a chug and it springs to life. Could lean it out just a hair, but only a blonde one. VIbration is different than the 125. The 190 has more of a buzz, the 125 was more of an intense feeling vibration than the 190 for sure. I like it a lot.

RedCrowRides

05-08-2020, 01:08 PM

I'm slowly working towards the 190 swap , I've got everything pretty much how i want it but my new swingarm is still in transit from Thailand ,i am holding off on installing my new rear shock til swingarm gets here .
I have some other odds and ends i need to install ( front end preload adjusters and some Core braided steel brake lines front and rear ) and then I guess i am going to once again try to find a stunt hand brake kit ,it pains me they run around $400 - 450, I might wait on that and get the 190 first , i've come this far using just the rear brake foot control stunting and havent crashed " too much " lol.

I really, really want the 5 peed tranny in the 190 ,and of course the extra HP / Torque.

deadwood83

05-11-2020, 09:34 AM

Scoot_newb! I found you in the fb page! Hahahaha it all makes sense now.

Anyway, I have been fighting with the stupid tachometer, and getting the choke lever feel where I want. The tach is one infuriating piece of factory equipment. I have tried different ground points, different coils, different CDIs, different stators. When the RPM goes over 4.5K, the tach goes backwards, and then fluctuates. This means that it is all but invisible while riding. I have ordered a new generic dash from Amazon and have set aside riding the bike (to not rack up miles). I plan to set up the new tach with the proper mileage by setting the wheel size in the tach to as large as it will go, then mounting it on my drill press to make odometers match.
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I really hope the new one solves the issue. I have tried grounds at the following points to see if that's the issue:

Ignition coil body/ground
Ignition coil frame mount
Engine case
Engine sidecover
Rear brake reservoir mount
Separating harness ground from body ground
Stacking harness ground and body ground

I have tried the following part swaps to see if that's the issue:

Blue "racing" CDI with Hellcat stator and ZS190 coil
Blue "racing" CDI with ZS190 stator and ZS190 coil
Blue "racing CDI with Hellcat Stator and Hellcat Coil
Blue "racing" CDI with ZS190 stator and Hellcat coil
Hellcat CDI with Hellcat stator and ZS190 coil
Hellcat CDI with ZS190 stator and ZS190 coil
Hellcat CDI with Hellcat Stator and Hellcat Coil
Hellcat CDI with ZS190 stator and Hellcat coil
Tried swapping the yellow wires for the hell of it. Nope. It's just two AC waveforms, as expected.

It all behaves the same! Gah! >:( Hopefully the new speedo has a proper tach reading. I have pored over the Icebear and SSR Razkull wiring diagrams. The hellcat appears to be a closer to the Fuerza. It uses the 5-pin CDI like the Fuerza, but has a diode off the ignition coil like the SSR. The diode is crimped into a two prong connector under the tank and wrapped in electrical tape. The tach signal is then measured off what looks like the difference in ground potential between battery ground and coil ground? That's what it looks like here:
http://www.ssrmotorsports.com/store/wirediagram/Razkull%20125%20Wire%20Diagram.pdf
Though the icebear makes it look like the tach is measured off the high pulse ignition signal http://www.icebearatv.com/media/file/news3886Scan.pdf (page 31).

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I am no elecchicken, but the tach seems to work at lower RPM and when the bike is not under load, making me believe the wiring is OK, and it's just a different configuration parameter in the dash? I wish they hadn't locked down the Hellcat dash firmware so much so I could play with the settings. It's going to be a pain to match the odometer. Any insight would be appreciated here.

My poor All Y'all carb is junk, but not for the reasons that others have found it to be junk. Most others in the swap page have found the lack of needle adjustment frustrating (and it is slightly, but I have M2.5 shims). The part that threw me was the choke bore! The choke is bored oversize so the plunger vibrates around inside and fuel creeps up the walls and finds its way into the head! But it's not a consistent stream of fuel which could be jetted for. SO I could roll the dice on another clone, and maybe another, or just bite the bullet and get the Nibbi. I got the Nibbi.

In other news, after riding my ZS-swapped Hellcat my younger brother suddenly needed a bike to play with. I reached out to Pete at Kronik but he said that per American Lifan, all KPM200s were sold out unless a dealer had one in their own warehouse. I have asked Don @ ShopAPMC for a refund on the KPM200 I ordered on April 10 and paid for on Apr 15.

We actually found a "used" KP Mini locally. It had a whole 88 miles on it. Red/black 2019 model (I do not like the 2020 color scheme). My bro does not have any riding gear nor a moto endorsement, so I rode it back to his place. Big mistake. The Lifan is nice. The seat is significantly more comfy, the rear suspension is in an entirely different league, the throttle tube is way less janky, and that counterbalance... Hoooo boy. At least I now have a seat to study for potential foam shaping on my DOOM kitten.

I do have two major issues with the Lifan though:

It has no shifter feel. I wear a size 13 shoe and the shifter is so light that if you bump it while moving your foot beneath, it will downshift. No tactility.
The clutch is so light that it is completely devoid of all feedback. I am shocked that it doesn't slip more.

scoot newb

05-11-2020, 05:56 PM

The cluster can behave weird if there is a bad connection.

Even if the connection is good many in the groups have a problem with clusters going blank after a certain RPM stock. The first thing everyone usually does is replace it. I figured Tao would have corrected the problem by now. This has been going on since the 2017 models.

Hellcat CDI with ZS190 stator and ZS190 coil is the combo I use and the cluster even the stock one didn't have a problem. But I had one of the ones that was km/h only. :lol:

The clone PE's usually have 5 needle clip positions but I've never seen one like yours before.

scoot newb

05-11-2020, 09:09 PM

Scoot_newb! I found you in the fb page! Hahahaha it all makes sense now.

I am banned from all of the public ones except for The Clone Society.

Clone Army and ZS190 Swap Shop were okay.

Both of those groups were in denial about the shift star problem. The mods would tell others it was extremely rare. Other things too. As I went along doing my build I would find wow, well that information is wrong. The mods are also extremely biased.

I hate to say it but I've spent a lot of time looking around other groups... pitbike related. They do ZS 190 swaps too. These motors are prone to failure. The transmission is a mess and it is starting to come to light the real Daytona 190 5 speeds are too.

I have a 2nd new 190 that has never been run. In a new pit bike I got registered. Yes it has plates!

I'm hoping it is one of the better 190's or at least won't have transmission problems since the shift star keeper was applied as soon as I took it out of the box. I should have it done shortly

https://imgur.com/HAOkXpP.jpg

deadwood83

05-11-2020, 11:34 PM

Nibbi is on. Bike idles A LOT smoother, Idle drop test shows it is at a happy AFR on the pilot. Amazing how much better the engine runs when you don;t have random amounts of fuel entering at random times through the enrichment port....

Also took delivery of my pressure rated hose so I can start to fab my custom oil cooling solution. I am a little tired of the gaping hole between the fairings.

Grom swingarm also arrived. Came with bushings and axle bolt. It is actually the proper size and not flared out at the back like the stock hellcat swinger. Ordered the YSS monoshock after riding the KP mini. The stability difference between the two bikes is absolutely mind-boggling. Some of that may have something to do with going 70 vs 40 though....

scoot newb

05-11-2020, 11:47 PM

scoot newb

05-14-2020, 06:06 PM

Progress update?

deadwood83

05-14-2020, 11:29 PM

New speedo came in. It is the style without CEL/Water temp gauge. Currently whirring away on the drill press to get the mileage proper.Only had 55.1 miles on the original odometer so that won't take long.

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First impressions: VASTLY superior reaction speed to gear changes. No more waiting 1-2 seconds before the proper gear indicator / neutral light pops. YOu can see it briefly light N when going from 1 to 2.
I did have to swap 3rd and 4th wires. Fuel gauge took a while first start, but I think it was measuring the sender because the gauge slowly climbed to the proper level. Second turn of the key and it was instant.

I do need to rewire the speedo connection. Gauge has a female lead, bike has a female lead.

Steering on this thing feels a bit janky. Not sure if it's the soft front forks, the under-damped rear shock, a cheap, out-of shape swingarm, or a combination of all three. I am conquering them is order of ease. First will be completing the grom swingarm swap. I'll put in the Honda rubbers at the same time. Currently pending arrival of factory parts and the YSS preload adjustable rear shock. I believe I still have a bunch of bushings from my Progressive Suspension rears on the XJ, so those will be put to good use.

The steering stem was slightly over hand tight. Gave that a few love taps with a screwdriver and hammer with a touch of red loctite on the top set of threads.

I am going to at least re-oil the forks. I have 12 quarts of redline D4 ATF back when I owned a car with an auto trans. Works like a dream in my 84 XJ; can;t see a reason why it wouldn't be better than whatever swill is in these. You can hear it gushing about when the front is loaded.

I still need to lube the cables. I got it all set up with a slit in a finger of a rubber glove zip-tied around the entry, then found my can of cable lube was empty.

After work I hit up the local Autozone after placing an online order at 7AM. (12 hours later). Waited in line for 20 minutes, realized I was at the wrong location. Went to the proper location watched a friendly gentleman without a mask help several customers, accept payment, etc, all with the same, stained gloves. Had me sign the pad using their pen too. Everything from Autozone plopped down on the front seat, and I proceeded to wipe myself down with lysol wipes (and all the products, bag, and seat.)

By the time I got home, it was too dark to do anything. And hey! My drill press finished while I was in the process of typing this.

I need to wire that speedo properly now. My XJ aslso needs the mufflers re-packed. They are causing it to lean on midrange.

Why are the miles so low despite having an over-enthusiastic speedometer? Because the factory exhaust/muffler can melt a piston if left too long. My replacement is stuck in god-knows-where but supposedly in the US for 10 days now. No movement. Super frustrating.

Carb is a Nibbi PE28. My atmospheric density isn't high enough to take advantage of anything bigger on this engine, esp without a 4v head. The Nibbi has a 4.0 slide, and I can tell. The bike is weak and lumpy just off idle. Finding a 3.0 slide outside of paying $75 for it seems almost impossible. I might just move the clip down one notch, sigh, and live with it.

I've actually been doing a good chunk of sighing after riding my brother's KP Mini.That thing is so nice.we're putting a BBK 223cc kit in it soon. I have upgraded clutch plates and springs at the ready, as well as a gallon on GN4 10w-40.

I can't do too much riding without the freaking exhaust. Oh well. It feels slightly disappointing right now, but I am sure I'll fall in love with it again once it actually runs.

scoot newb

05-15-2020, 07:00 PM

The KP Mini is cool. Not as cool looking but better quality and there is that BBK you mention.

I finally got around to adjusting that nut on the goose-neck too. I always hated it was a tad loose but didn't have a wrench that fit.

Please let me know how the suspension works out. I want to get a shock too and some forks. I have been packing it on since quarantine. I am surprised the bike even moves anymore.

scoot newb

05-18-2020, 09:51 AM

What is this about the 4.0 slide on the nibbi? What does that mean?

deadwood83

05-18-2020, 07:59 PM

Slide number affects fuel delivery in the range of ~1/16 throttle to ~3/16 throttle.
Keihin's jetting guide (https://www.keihin-na.com/assets/1/7/slide_valve.pdf) lists it as "Throttle Valve Cut away"
Higher numbers mean a leaner mix at that same throttle opening range while lower numbers indicate a richer mixture.

I thinkt he suggestion on the FB pages to use a 1/4 turn throttle may be influenced by this. The range where cutaway if effective is incredibly difficult to stay within on a throttle which has a smaller effective range.

I don't race or stunt, so I am more partial to winder range throttle tubes. I fond the stock hellcat tube to be a little touchy with the ZS190, especially when going over speed bumps. It also seems rather... light. I wonder of the PWK28 springs would fit. WHen you are used to pulling a throttle actuating four butterflies with two springs each...

Also, new tach works a treat. Still waiting on the exhaust. Old tach has a silk screened board revision of 2013. Primary IC on it looks to be a Holtek HT46R65 8-bit ADC. There is zero hope of updating the firmware because it's an OTP (One Time Programmable) device.

deadwood83

05-18-2020, 09:59 PM

Yss shock is here! Looks like a quality unit. I have run my fingers over every edge, not a sharp part to be found. The machining is very nice.

Users on the grom forums were complaining about split center bushings. I think either YSS listened, or they bought fake reproductions. Note the solid bushings and part markings. This was not made on old tooling.
21479

Another tell of a not-clone is printed spring rate and part number on the spring. The spring has one drip mark (you can tell it was dip-painted) then the lettering added later. Gas port is also clocked with a definite paint line marking position. No oil wiping on the piston rod. This is made to tighter tolerances than some Koni, Bosch, and Sachs suspension I have put on BMWs.
21480

See those two reflections where the tool changed direction? This part was not polished/burnished in a separate process. That's straight from the machine. Body threads are not at all sharp. They are buttery smooth.
21481
I am impressed. Locking screw for the preload adjustment also came with a fiber pad between it and the threads. No thread galling from the lock. So what's the first thing I did? Dropped that set screw straight into a trash bag filled with kitchen waste.

I'm just going to buy a $0.30 nylon-tipped set screw.

scoot newb

05-19-2020, 07:11 AM

That shock looks nice!

deadwood83

05-20-2020, 11:47 PM

Exhaust, YSS rear, and TBolt EZ-Start CDI went in today. EZ is an understatement. THis thing fires up like it's fuel injected.

Brother helped me with the shock by holding up the rear of the bike while I quickly swapped with the stocker. The difference is MASSIVE. A lot of the badness I was complaining about with the handling is gone with the rear shock. Suspension still needs work, and I need to put that Grom swinger on, but waiting for my NDC chain adjusters to arrive before doing that.

With the exhaust, the bike is an entirely different beast. ALmost all the vibration is gone. I really struggled to believe it when people said the stock muffler is half the reason these bikes shake, but it is 100% true.

Gratiuitous shot of post-install ride. Had to feed the inner (and outer) fat guy with a quesarito and crunchwrap supreme. First meal of the day, and the last.
21508

Bike is still louder than I like. KP mini sounds amazing with the kepspeed can, but I don't want to be behind it at all. Sadly that might be the norm after this weekend when the KP gets a 223cc Big bore kit.
21509

Really quite happy the KPM200 deal fell through. The KP Mini is absolutely amazing. If I knew what I do now, I would be rocking the KP Mini.

scoot newb

05-23-2020, 11:56 AM

I am going to get a KPM for sure. I am done with the clone and the janky ZS / Daytona horizontal style china motors. I've lost 5th gear.

You can get the 223 kit here

https://www.facebook.com/Plug-and-Play-Performance-1438915149661246/?hc_location=ufi

If your in the group, check out the post about the KP in ZS190 Swap Shop. I thought the dude may have been you. He said he had a hellcat and his bother had a KP mini.

scoot newb

05-23-2020, 12:52 PM

What happened with the MZS levers locking? Which ones did you have the problem with?

deadwood83

05-24-2020, 09:56 AM

Alllllright. I've gotta document this here for posterity.

2020 Hellcat forks. They are not the same construction as the Vader forks at all. On Friday, I got an a-frame ladder and a 4" wide ratchet strap expecting to change my fork oil. Oh boy was I ever mistaken.

For reference, you can see the general construction of a boom vader fork (at least the endcap and damping rod) here.
(https://chinariders.net/showpost.php?p=288686&postcount=33)
I went into the project expecting the same. Nope. I... did my usual and sis not take any pictures, so I will assemble what I found from stock images of chinese forks.
21581
The top cap comes off, and nothing to to it. Nothing attached either.

Inside, I found the heart of the operation. A single 6mm allen head bolt.
21582
With forks mounted in triple, axle through bottoms, I started to loosen the allen head bolt. It just spun.

Okay, maybe it's like the XJ where the internal plug is seated with o-rings in grooves, and it just requires some force to push the plug out. SO I dropped one fork, put it on the ground, loosely threaded the top cap to prevent parts flying out with the force of 1000 angry squirrels, and bottomed out the fork. Nope. Nothing. Not one iota of movement.

Hmmmmm. Maybe spring tension is holding an internal fastener? Removed fork cap, bottomed out the fork, spun the bolt to the left..... nothing. Just spun. Could hear a spring spinning too. Hmmmmm. Okay, what's on the bottom? Maybe it's like an 80s conventional fork where the damper rod valving is secured through the bottom.
21583
Okay, interesting, there is a deep-set 8mm bolt perpendicular to the axle running up into the body. I found an 8mm allen that fit, put that on my pneumatic impact and.... chug-chug-chug-chug... nothing.

Okay, maybe there's loctite? Heated the bottom tube to 150F, just to soften it a little. chug-chug-chug-chug... nothing. This will clearly take a breaker bar and a bench vise. I have one, but not the other (sturdy mounted bench vise with a fork tube holder jaw set). No spare forks in case I bend the tube, so I gave up and put them back together. I have been defeated. That said, I have not bottomed out these forks like many others have reported.I'm at a loss as to how to get these apart.

Okay, onto the other issue I have been fighting. Breakup at 7k rpm. When it hits the trouble spot, it feels like the engine dies, then the momentum from being in gear and moving bump starts it, then it dies, cycle repeats perpetually. I never had this issue with the stock exhaust, only after I added the free flowing aftermarket exhaust. At first, I thought it was just a lean issue. SO I started on a quest for main jetting. I went:

118 needle clip positions 2, 3 ,4
115 needle 2, 3, 4
120, needle clip 3
122 needle clip 3, 4
125 needle clip 3, 4

None of these helped. I am at 4400 ft elevation and other ZS190 owners report using 118-120 at about 1000ft above sea level, so the 125 is definitely rich. Even then, it should be shooting backfires, spitting, etc even though its rich as a pig. Nope, same cutting behavior.

Well, maybe a vacuum leak. SO I set it to idle and did quick spurts of brake cleaner at:

the carb manifold connection.... no extra revs.
The carb boot to manifold.... no extra revs.

Nope, not a leak on the intake. Maybe an exhaust leak? SO I checked the header. Tight. No carbon deposits, no evidence of leak. I used a genuine Grom gasket.

If it were compression, the bike would not start easily nor idle. That's ruled out. So I have ruled out the suck, the squeeze, and the juice. ALl that's left is the spark.

Re-gapped the plug, no dice.
New plug? No dice.

I suspect the ignition coil is the culprit. It's the stock hellcat coil with loose-fitting rubber insulator and stamped steel outer boot. It honestly looks like what you would find on a cheap lawn mower or roto-tiller, or an American yardwork engine from the 60's.

A word on CDI ignition:

When the gate opens and dumps all the current into the primary side, it saturates the low-voltage side of the transformer and sets up a short but immensely magnetic field. As the field reduces gradually, a large current in the primary windings forces the secondary windings to produce extremely high voltage.
However, the voltage is now so high that it can arc through the air, so rather than being absorbed or retained by the transformer, the charge travels up the plug wire and jumps the plug gap.
A word on ignition demand:

The ignition system is considered to be passive. The spark plug only takes from the ignition coil what it needs to create an arc across the plug’s electrodes. It must be recognized that ignition demand is determined by the following:

Cylinder pressure
Engine speed
Air-fuel ratio
Ignition timing
Spark plug gap

Cylinder pressure is not meant to be confused with compression ratio. Cylinder pressure is the cumulative result of the load on the engine in relation to the volumetric efficiency and mixture strength. Compression ratio is a design function of the difference in the volume of the bore with the piston at bottom dead center, compared to when it is at top dead center. Cylinder pressure and ignition demand are constantly changing with engine load.
At idle, the required energy to arc the spark plug is very low since the cylinder pressure is minimal. This is due to the throttle being almost closed, the engine rpm being low, and the fact that there is no load on the engine.

Here is what I am feeling, courtesy of some guy on youtube. This I think confirms the spark issue. It starts around the 1:46 mark.
https://youtu.be/9Bx6oKszFCI?t=100 (https://www.youtube.com/embed/9Bx6oKszFCI?start=100)

So the plan of action:

Re-jet back to 120m clip 4. Likely still a touch rich, but a leaner mixture is easier to ignite (hence why you get pings/knocks when lean)

Swap in the ZS190 coil, which has a normal plastic and rubber insulated boot. I have already gone through and done the "righty tighty" on the wire at both ends for this coil and plug boot. Typically these just have a pointed screw at each end of the wire to tighten. The screw tends to "fray" the inner conductor of the plug wire, wrapping itself in the copper and making contact.21584

If that does not work, I will try an NGK iridium plug CR9EIX. It has a much smaller electrode tip (.6mm vs 3mm on the CR9E) which requires less voltage to jump the gap due to a more concentrated ionization force about the smaller tip. Either the stator is not charging the CDI capacitor fast enough at high RPM to generate sufficient voltage (seems unlikely since RPM and voltage output should be proportional) or there is still a weak link that takes less voltage to jump compared to the cylinder under compression.

Oh and about the plug cap shown above... our plug caps should be non-resistor type, since the plugs used have internal resistors. That plug cap is more applicable to my XJ internally since it uses non-resistor plugs.

The coil that came with my ZS190 ohms-out at .5-Ohm primary and 9K secondary. Haven't take the one off the hellcat to measure since it's been cold and rainy.

scoot newb

05-26-2020, 04:58 AM

Were you changing the plugs between jet tests?

I found my plugs were 'fouled' out from running rich and it still ran weird after leaning it out until I put in a fresh plug.

I re-jet, let it warm up, put in new plug then test

deadwood83

05-28-2020, 09:42 AM

OK, it was not the ignition coil and plug. Replaced both. The Hellcat coil plug wire pretty much fell out when I removed it, so I was confident it was the culprit.

The issue started when I put on the rear shock, exhaust, and TBolt USA CDI. I would prefer not to trace out all the CDI contacts from sources with a multimeter, so I have swapped the Hellcat CDI back in. IIRC the older ones used to have 8500rpm limiter, but if I find myself hitting 8500rpm then that would tell me all I need to know.

Been working on the KP Mini quite a bit. It ran briefly with the 70mm BBK, and it felt like it pulled hard. Then the exhaust valve seized open, and bonked the piston.
2161521616

I wanted to brace the engine more. Using MotoCheez' video on bracing his Hellcat I thought I had the perfect answer...
21619
21618
The brackets don't line up perfectly, but the top hole seems to align with the rear motor mount. Sadly, the bottom relief cut for the rearset mounts is too high to make solid contact. This leaves me with two options:

Mount the brackets using the rear hole and the bottom 4 bolts to the engine, then weld to the frame. (I have no welder, nor friends who can do this)
Mount the brackets to the engine and rear mount, then drill the second hole location and use the cross-bolt with sleeve.

Option two seems like a good one, since it would relieve some stress from the rear mount and supposedly reduce vibration per the Cheez himself after he welded in his mount.

NDCustomz finally delivered the chain adjusters. I would be ready to swap swingarms except.... BikeBandit has not shipped my order of Honda Parts from 20 days ago. I might mount it up anyway since the new chain tensioners would allow more rapid replacement of the hub/cushions/bearings/axle. Removing the swinger would also be a good time to drill/mount the cradle.

The more I fuss with the carb, the more I feel the desire for EFI. I felt the same way with the XJ as I was dialing it in.. but putting EFI on a single cylinder 1-1 exhaust bike is way more doable than a 4-cylinder 4-2 exhaust bike which would require 4 separate throttle bodies, 4 injectors, etc.

I checked for fuel delivery issues with the Hellcat, and I don't think there are any in the tank -> filter -> petcock -> carb chain. If we assume 80mph & 40mpg then as long as I can drain 1 gallon in under 30 minutes it should be fine. I was able to drain 1 gallon in about 5-10 mins.

I tightened the bar holders to the point the rubber cushions are doing almost nothing. This was a massive improvement. While forks were out I did a 'po-boy/lazy-boy front end alignment. Secured the tubes in the top triple with caps off against a small marble tile, left axles and lower pinch bolts loose, bounced the front end, tightened it all up. Slight improvement. The bike doesn't immediately try to lean/dive to the left if I release the bard while riding. Now it just leans lazily to the left if I release the bars. I can now wave at people without the bike changing course.

Lubing the clutch cable made it ten thousand times better. The clutch actually has feel and springback now! It's fairly light.

Still to do:

Cry about forks. Stare at ebay listings until my eyes bleed looking for grom forks that aren't priced like the tubes are actually made of gold.
Ponder if my fat butt really needs bronze swingarm bushings, or if it will just lead me high preload and a sore tailbone.
Maybe ohm out the whole ignition circuit and re-crimp terminations / solder.
Actually make a muffler bracket and get rid of my 14-zip-tie braid holding it from the rearset. The zip ties have been incredibly sturdy. They are all at equal tension and woven together.
Actually finish the oil cooler install. Just need to cut/shape the mounts and finish assembling my lines. Dunno why I am being so lazy about this one.

scoot newb

05-28-2020, 10:42 AM

I had the same problem with the TBOLT CDI. I tried it the other day. Within 100 feet I knew something was wrong. It would sputter above 1/2 throttle at 7k. I put back in the stock CDI and even though I am slightly rich, I was banging 9k all day.

deadwood83

05-29-2020, 11:26 AM

Yep. I finally got to ride last night (work has been insane) and with the stock CDI it seemed to have no rev limits. Saw 10k on the tach, and eased off because I don't want to frag the crank.

Now I can jet down, because this sucker is running rich with the 125 main. I'll drop to a 118 today and see what's what. I expect to get some power back.

I reached out to Bike Bandit, and was reminded why I never order from them. Even though all parts in my order showed in stock, the gentleman on the phone revealed that for the past 21 days, they have been waiting for parts to arrive at their warehouse. That seems dishonest. I was never notified the parts were not in stock. I canceled the order. If my local Honda dealer doesn't have parts on hand, they let me know up front.

I don't like the fuel tank exit. For now, I have the fuel line/filter looped forward so the low voltage wiring looms keep the right hand side tubing at the same level as the outlet, preserving a downward slope all the way to the carb. I am contemplating doing swingarm and/or oil cooler today

scoot newb

05-29-2020, 12:47 PM

That sucks about the delay of your order. I'm not crazy about the gas tank outlet either. I routed mine so it gets slightly lower as it crosses from right side to left then once on the left hand side, straight down.

https://imgur.com/KUDmyH3.jpg

https://imgur.com/KFm1FZd.jpg

I ordered another 190 from motorkit yesterday. It was under $700 shipped.:lol:

I'll never be able to fix the transmission properly in time to ride this season and nobody else will work on it. I almost got the KP then decided this was a better less expensive option and I could practice wrenching on the inside of the old engine or just sell it for $400 or something.

RedCrowRides

05-29-2020, 06:18 PM

I'm bout ready to go set fire to BikeBandits HQ., i ordered 2 Grom rear axle bolts, nuts, washers six weeks ago and still havent gotten them ,and every time i ask where they are all i get is a generic " we are experiencing delays in shipping due to high volumes of orders" reply., with NO indication of when , or if, they will ever get here.

I know now, that was my first and last order with those guys hell i could have ordered them from WeBike thats actually in Japan and gotten them by now.

scoot newb

05-29-2020, 06:21 PM

motorkit is crazy fast. Like Amazon Prime fast.

I'm in the US

https://imgur.com/vxtbgEt.jpg

RedCrowRides

05-29-2020, 08:45 PM

Motorkit it is then from now on , I sure won't miss BikeBandit and their shenanigans., thanks for the tip !

Whisky

05-30-2020, 05:28 PM

I've always had good luck with Bikebandit, although my last order did take awhile, figured it was a covid 19 issue?

deadwood83

06-02-2020, 05:43 PM

I took my first multi-day vacation in half a decade. It's just the next 4 days, but still a big thing. I'd like to take the time to work on my bikes and ride.

Today was oil cooler day. I used a 6-row transmission cooler and made my own AN-4 lines. Had to cut the mounts on both top and bottom, but the fit is really nice. I also had to cut my own mount holes, and mark/drill/tap the HardRacing Grom oil cooler mount.

The bolts go through the cooler flanges, and thread into the oil cooler mount. THen I put some M8 locknuts on top to lock the bolt in the threads in the mount. THe size is absolutely perfect. It fills the void right where the airbox was.
21706
21707

21708
On the engine side, I found some M10 to AN-4 adapters in blue. This should all flow much better than the banjo-based bypass or a banjo based cooler because there will be less pressure loss.

21709
I've always been rather proud of my oil cooler installs. I never seem to go the conventional route on them.

deadwood83

06-03-2020, 11:21 PM

Day2 of my time off. I had a swinger party, all by my lonesome. Was a decently good time. The Hellcat swingarm is just... ehhhhh. With better tensioners, it might actually be okayish, but the bushings were already super soft and mushy with a total of 155 miles. The darn thing also doesn't hold shape worth anything. I only took one photo, but it shows half the gap that opens up once you remove the nut.
21722

The Honda bushings, despite having more miles on them, were noticeably stiffer. WHile I was in there, I took the opportunity to apply excessive amounts of moly grease. Wow! What a difference! When I get on the bike I can actually feel the progression of the rear shock, bouncing static I can discern the valving of the monoshock. One positive side effect is that the rear wheel is not as easy to lock up. I believe that is because the suspension can actually travel, and it's not just skidding across the ground.

Bike still leans left when I release the handlebars though. I need to find a piece of plate glass to put across the forks and see if they're actually running true.

After the swinger party was over, I went for a nice ride. Thew thing really does egg you on. They've been putting more of those automated speed reading signs with flashy lights around here. I don't think there was a single one I did not upset. I have the NDC chain adjusters in the grom swingarm and they're pretty nice. Manual measurement between swingarm bolt and rear axle shows the marks on both sides are dead on.

Shifting has improved substantially. It's so much better that I need to focus back on being firm going into second gear. All other gears would probably be comfortable with sandals if you were stupid enough to ride in those. Neutral is also pretty easy to find now, even when the engine is running but the bike is stopped.

On the fuel side of things, I finally got to apply my 10mm colortune adapter. My ears work pretty well, and I always tune idle with earplugs so I can better discern combustion events. Slow circuit was within 1/2 turn of what I consider optimal (blue, with the faintest hint of orange creeping in).

During my ride I did a little seat of the pants shifting. I felt the bike starting to break up at WOT, glanced down, and saw it go past 11k. I could probably go down one size on the main, but I like having my crank in one piece, so a fuel-induced rev limit of 11.5k is fine with me. It's something I struggle with on my XJ. That thing revs so easily you will go from 6.5k to 12k in a fraction of a second. At 12.2 the valves start to float, but the engine will still rev.

I really really really wish I could open these forks more easily. With the rear suspension actually working, if I could get some 15wt oil (read: Redline D4 ATF) in them and get the stupid bike to track straight I would have almost no incentive to change anything.

I think I have thoroughly defeated the purpose of this bike. A cheap, quiet, slow commuter that won't get you in trouble around the city. I guess it's still cheap, and it's slow compared to anything with a 100cc advantage in displacement, but it's pretty neat for what it is. I'm quite chuffed with this little china bike.

scoot newb

06-06-2020, 07:37 AM

I really like that oil cooler.

scoot newb

06-09-2020, 12:46 PM

You may have seen this in the groups already but... going back to your question about the rear hub.

https://imgur.com/efa4BrB.jpg

deadwood83

06-10-2020, 08:40 AM

Maybe! But I've stared at that and I think I can see what went on.

First of all:
Two of the bolt securing locations look chowdered at the edge of the threads.
One of the four bolt hole locations looks chowdered inside the threads, then broke away in the same direction the chain is trying to rotate the wheel.
Looking at the one hole where we can see inside, it looks to be straight metal, nothing more.

So my conclusion is this:

Bolts hollding sprocket were never chemically bonded (loctite)
Bolts holding sprocket were allowed to come loose with time.
Once bolts were loose, they allowed some radial movement and a small amount of axial play, which began to destroy the threads inside the holes.
At some point later, the bolt holes had almost no threads, and only 1-2 bolts were partially secured. The user hit the bike with some power, and due to the imbalance of fastening faces, the chain torqued the sprocket which tore the remaining bolts out.

Proposed solution: loctite your bolts. I believe people blame whatever seems obvious or convenient at the time. Not because they have an agenda or anything, but bcause most people on the groups are quite new to failure analysis and other mechanical studies. In all likelihood, a grom hub treated the same way (loose bolts and unattended) would suffer the same fate.

What you CAN say is that tapping tolerances on a grom would be better leading to fewer loose bolt issues.

Oh, and you can see evidence of the sprocket wobble on the uneven tooth wear pattern. The outer edge of each groove is hammered really hard.