Shipping Updates??

[dgl57]

Well it is the middle of July. Anyone have any updates on out of stock bikes like the Hellcat and etc? I heard bikes coming are going to be rationed out to the dealers. Might not be good news if they have a lot of pre-orders on their books.

[crabjoe]

I don't trust anything any of these dealers say, when it comes to inventory becoming available. I really feel like they're just making stuff up to appease us. For example, the last couple times I called my dealer, I was told there were containers waiting for customs inspection and it was taking longer than usual because of Covid.. Didn't want to get in any kind of argument, so I let it go.. I wonder what they'll tell me if I ask them what the hold up is now?

BTW, in the auto world, dealers are always given an allotment of cars based on model, so with autos, they're already being rationed. In these Chinese powersports world, it seems the old way was for the dealers to just place an ordered to have stuff drop shipped... If that's the case, I wonder how rationing would work? Is it a case of 1st in, 1st out, or will each dealer, irregardless of how many pre-orders they may have be given an allotment? If it's an allotment, there are going to be some really PO'd people.. I can see it now, Company ! took 30 pre-orders but their allotment is 15.. Now those 15 that didn't make it are going to have to go hunting for another dealer, or wait even longer..

Makes me think an allotment type of deal won't work and the distributors are going to have to just do a 1st in 1st out as they've always done.. assuming that's what was happening in the past.

Oh.. as for inventory.. Tao Canada has a bunch of eletric motor vehicles headed to them.. Outside of that, all I've been seeing coming in are helmets..

Date
2020-07-13
Shipper Name
Zhejiang Taotao Vehicles Co. Ltd
Shipper Address
NO 6 XINMIN RD XINBI ST JINYUN COUNTY LISHUI CHINA
Consignee Name
Tao Motor Canada Inc.
Consignee Address
170 BARTOR RD NORTH YORK ON M9M 2W6 CANADA TEFAX1
Notify Party Name
Tao Motor Canada Inc.
Notify Party Address
170 BARTOR ROAD NORTH YORK ON, M9M2W6 CANADA, TEL 1-416-748-6686 FAX, TE1-416-749-6686
Weight
13586
Weight Unit
KG
Weight in KG
13586.0
Quantity
917
Quantity Unit
CTN
Measure Unit
CM
Shipment Origin
China
Details
13,586.0 kg
From port: Ningbo, China
To port: Port of Tacoma, Tacoma, Washington
Place of Receipt
Ningbo
Foreign Port of Lading
Ningbo, China
U.S. Port of Unlading
Port of Tacoma, Tacoma, Washington
U.S. Destination Port
Port of Tacoma, Tacoma, Washington
Commodity
WITH ELECTRIC MOTOR FOR PROPULSION (MOTORCYCL POWER ASSISTED SCOOTER
Container
TCNU3052169
Marks Description
/ /
Carrier Name
YANG MING MARINE TRANSPORT CORP
Vessel Name
NYK THEMIS
Voyage Number
067E
Bill of Lading Number
YMLUW232388745
Lloyd's Code
9356696
HTS Codes
HTS 8711.90

[dgl57]

The allotment thing is what I am worried about. You're right. If they ended up over selling pre-order units this forum will be on fire. >:(

[dgl57]

I see one dealer's website states that Tao is not releasing any info to dealers. They now have a click to cancel your pre-order button on their website. These dealers have already been paid for bikes and have a lot of peoples money.

[KHnTX]

The lack of information is what caused me to go ahead and cancel my or order with Q9 after they confirmed that they wouldn't have my order by July 10th. They refunded my money within a few days so I'll just wait till things become available or I find something else to put the money towards.

[Deckard_Cain]

Q9 told me containers are arriving every week, they're fufilling pre-orders first, and if those wipe out the incoming inventory, then the website will remain out of stock and they won't be alotting to any other smaller dealers that they say they distribute to.

They say pre-orders from May, June and July should be fulfilled (they hope) by end of August.

We'll see.

I'm not cancelling my order unless another dealer absolutely for sure has one in stock, ready to ship to me.. in which case, I'm going to be on the phone with them placing the order and getting some sort of verbal guarantee they are shipping a bike immediately.

If I cancel now, it just puts me to the back of a very very VERY long line.

[JakeD]

Kinda in the same spot... I wish they had some sort of number in the queue they could update online... Tao is crazy not to flood the market, especially if they release another Covid check...

[dgl57]

I am going to need everyone who has pre-ordered a Hellcat to go ahead and cancel their order at this time...except me. "That would be great". :tup: :)

[crabjoe]

Q9 told me containers are arriving every week, they're fufilling pre-orders first, and if those wipe out the incoming inventory, then the website will remain out of stock and they won't be alotting to any other smaller dealers that they say they distribute to.

They say pre-orders from May, June and July should be fulfilled (they hope) by end of August.

We'll see.

I'm not cancelling my order unless another dealer absolutely for sure has one in stock, ready to ship to me.. in which case, I'm going to be on the phone with them placing the order and getting some sort of verbal guarantee they are shipping a bike immediately.

If I cancel now, it just puts me to the back of a very very VERY long line.

They told me almost the same thing, and I don't feel they're being truthful.

If they were getting containers weekly, I highly doubt not a single person here with a pre-order still wouldn't have gotten fufillment.

Let's see.. you can get about 20 motorcycles into one container.. If you stack, you get get another 20 in. That's around 40 bikes per shipment they could get. If they're getting weekly inventory, based on shipping containers, there's no way they've pre-sold that many, where we're still waiting. I'm waiting on an ATV order from May 6th.

As for the wait.. They told me again, it should happen by the end of July, but could take till the end of Aug..... Bottom line, IMHO, they have no idea and just spitting out time frames. Only difference now is that they're not saying 2 week..

[Deckard_Cain]

They told me almost the same thing, and I don't feel they're being truthful.

If they were getting containers weekly, I highly doubt not a single person here with a pre-order still wouldn't have gotten fufillment.

Let's see.. you can get about 20 motorcycles into one container.. If you stack, you get get another 20 in. That's around 40 bikes per shipment they could get. If they're getting weekly inventory, based on shipping containers, there's no way they've pre-sold that many, where we're still waiting. I'm waiting on an ATV order from May 6th.

As for the wait.. They told me again, it should happen by the end of July, but could take till the end of Aug..... Bottom line, IMHO, they have no idea and just spitting out time frames. Only difference now is that they're not saying 2 week..

Yep.. I agree, it doesn't add up.

Sadly, no one else has anything in stock either and it's really out of our hands except to cancel and get refunds... which doesn't really accomplish putting bikes and atv's in our garages.

[Big Bird]

For people on the hellcat wait list Kronikracing has boom lil dukes and gen 2 vaders inbound within a couple weeks. His 3rd recent shipment.

I think tao got converted to making mask by the ccp or something. Apollo and boom have been getting stock into the country this whole time.

[dgl57]

The whole thing just seems strange. I agree, nobody anywhere has received their bike?? Or they have and just not posted about it here or anywhere else online??

Maybe they did get converted to virus stuff production but you would think that would have been communicated to dealers to pass on to customers who have paid. We hear nothing. Instead, dealers continue to take folks money for pre-orders. Orders they seem to have no idea when or even if they can fulfill. I do not think it is legal to continue takings orders if this is the case.

I think many folks may end up getting an email saying "We're sorry but do to current events we are not going to be able to fulfill your order. Please contact us for a refund and thank you for the temporary loan."

We shall see. I do know the day after I cancel they will start shipping. :doh:

[crabjoe]

For people on the hellcat wait list Kronikracing has boom lil dukes and gen 2 vaders inbound within a couple weeks. His 3rd recent shipment.

I think tao got converted to making mask by the ccp or something. Apollo and boom have been getting stock into the country this whole time.


I feel like Tao got converted to helmets. Most everything they've been shipping out has been helmets. A few days ago, I saw a shipment going to Dallas Powersports... Before that I saw electric vehicles going to Tao Canada, and helmets.

It's like 90% of Tao shipments are helmets. Some parts, some vehicles, but for the US, its helmets.

[dgl57]

I read that helmets have proven to be 100% effective when worn in a crash involving imaginary motorcycle and/or ATV vehicles. :)

[Big Bird]

I read that helmets have proven to be 100% effective when worn in a crash involving imaginary motorcycle and/or ATV vehicles. :)

That's the only way you would catch me relying on a china dot helmet.:hehe:

[RedCrowRides]

I know Orion PowerSports entire website is almost nothing aside from a sea of "Not in Stock" under near every Model. I was lucky enough to get one of the last RXB 250L Models they had on hand when i ordered ,which have since been marked "Out of Stock " as well . I was already on a "Waiting List" til August for a Brozz when i decided to go for the RXB instead ., while looking around it became clear that everything from Tao TBR7's to Brozz 250's to Apollo DB36's to Hawk 250's were basically non available from anywhere right now., everyone out of stock .


Between COVID, the Trade /Tariff spat between US / China and now Chinas record flooding , i think we may be in for a long wait indeed before things get back to "normal"., which really wasn't all that great to begin with , lol .

[Deckard_Cain]

The whole thing just seems strange. I agree, nobody anywhere has received their bike?? Or they have and just not posted about it here or anywhere else online??

Maybe they did get converted to virus stuff production but you would think that would have been communicated to dealers to pass on to customers who have paid. We hear nothing. Instead, dealers continue to take folks money for pre-orders. Orders they seem to have no idea when or even if they can fulfill. I do not think it is legal to continue takings orders if this is the case.

I think many folks may end up getting an email saying "We're sorry but do to current events we are not going to be able to fulfill your order. Please contact us for a refund and thank you for the temporary loan."

We shall see. I do know the day after I cancel they will start shipping. :doh:

I'm going to need you to go ahead and cancel your order then please.... right away if you could.


-I'd also like to remind the group that this situation of pre-orders being taken, no communication or vague ideas of delivery, and all that... is not isolated to just one or two dealers. It's pretty much all of them. I contacted 4 other dealers around the country, in addition to the one I ordered (pre-ordered) from, and all are giving the same information, for the most part.

It really does seem like Tao motors is making other parts and items instead of pumping out bikes, but just hasn't notified the US importers and dealers/distributors. Which seems like a pretty standard shite-Chinese business practice.

Quite often in my dealings with Chinese retailers/sellers and importers... it's nothing nothing nothing, finally a vague email.. nothing nothing -tried to deliver but there was a problem and then BOOM, it shows up.

In fact, I had levers show up yesterday from China that UPS and Amazon said delivery was attempted but could not be completed... Um.. they're sitting right here.

[RedCrowRides]

"In fact, I had levers show up yesterday from China that UPS and Amazon said delivery was attempted but could not be completed... Um.. they're sitting right here.'


Yep, COVID has everything messed up, not just China .I ordered parts from China the sane day i ordered some aluminum fat bars from here in the USA , I have since recieved the parts from China but the bars from here in the USA have still not appeared, despite contacting the Seller twice and then involving Ebay for help. The "transit" status has not been updated by the USPS for 3 weeks ,and that status was only put in after my initial contact of the Seller asking him for a package tracer .
So, apparently it can now take 6 weeks to mail some handlebars from the Chicago area to Florida ,and the USPS can effectively " lose" them twice in the process.

[dgl57]

I received a carb intake part yesterday. Ebay China order here in 10 days and by regular mail yet. I think all the dealers know something and if not they need to unite together and get answers for their growing number of angry customers whos money they have had for months. The integrity of their businesses is on the line here...now and for the future. If containers were actually arriving weekly someone would have reported getting their order by now. I think people have been very patient and cut them slack but general fluffy answers are getting old. If we are told what is actually going on speculation disappears and we can deal with things from there.

[Big Bird]

I ordered a exhaust for my vader from china and it quickly got to the usa but then took a two week time out at some distribution center. Makes me wonder if usps quarantined it.

Also I mentioned this before but one of the smaller dealers I originally placed a order(that got canceled for no stock) with said he made a call to the tao warehouse and they told him nothing was coming until August. This was back in early may. Starting to look like he has a good source at tao for inside info.

[ZiptieJonez]

Being employed by a dealer, we're being rationed. For starters, there was a back up because of the first shut down. They opened the ports but closed them back again(to my understanding). In between, the warehouses had to be stocked, so not only were we waiting for the ports to open and everything checked in and out, we were waiting on shipping to the warehouse. After that, inventory must be taken and systems updated, and that can take time as well. Then you have to hope you get in early enough to even get a unit(s). Then you have to wait for shipping again.

We *wish* we had inventory right now. It can't be looking good for some dealers. We've even considered other brands we don't usually roll with because it's gotten so hard to get anything.

There is not a conspiracy by the dealers here, and that line of thinking does absolutely no one any good.

[Deckard_Cain]

Being employed by a dealer, we're being rationed. For starters, there was a back up because of the first shut down. They opened the ports but closed them back again(to my understanding). In between, the warehouses had to be stocked, so not only were we waiting for the ports to open and everything checked in and out, we were waiting on shipping to the warehouse. After that, inventory must be taken and systems updated, and that can take time as well. Then you have to hope you get in early enough to even get a unit(s). Then you have to wait for shipping again.

We *wish* we had inventory right now. It can't be looking good for some dealers. We've even considered other brands we don't usually roll with because it's gotten so hard to get anything.

There is not a conspiracy by the dealers here, and that line of thinking does absolutely no one any good.

That's what I thought. COVID-19 has messed everything up.

I'm in a unique and privilaged position, as I had ordered a Hawk and the Hellcat within a week apart (granted I saved and allocated my disposable funds for almost a year to do so), so I have my Hawk to keep me busy, plus all the fiddling my Ninja 250 needs (which is status quo with those models).

So I just sit and wait for my mini hooligan bike. The Hellcat will get here when it gets here. I understand for others that is simply not acceptable.

But times are not normal. We can either "loan" our money and wait, or we can cancel our orders and maybe sometime in 2021 or 2022 supply and inventory will be available and you can get your bike delivered within a week.

I probably could have ordered from X-Pro or some Amazon seller, but I weighed my options and chose not to pay 20% more to get it sooner. I wanted to save that $200+ and use it towards upgrades or accessories.

But to each their own.

[ZiptieJonez]

100% with you, to each their own. I just wanted to set the record straight. Not really trying to call anyone out or anything. It's just a frustrating time for everyone involved.

[Magician16]

I see Hawks are available in Texas, along with some others.

[dgl57]

All the many customers have been requesting from the beginning is some straight answers on what is actually going on not just 2 weeks, 2 weeks, etc. since May. As I said info helps to tamp down the speculation and will add to folks patience level. And it seems my post got a response so it did actually do some good. Thanks for the info.

On the negative side it appears I may be correct that some customers and dealers might not get their order due to the rationing situation. Let's hope that does not happen.

[crabjoe]

Being employed by a dealer, we're being rationed. For starters, there was a back up because of the first shut down. They opened the ports but closed them back again(to my understanding). In between, the warehouses had to be stocked, so not only were we waiting for the ports to open and everything checked in and out, we were waiting on shipping to the warehouse. After that, inventory must be taken and systems updated, and that can take time as well. Then you have to hope you get in early enough to even get a unit(s). Then you have to wait for shipping again.

We *wish* we had inventory right now. It can't be looking good for some dealers. We've even considered other brands we don't usually roll with because it's gotten so hard to get anything.

There is not a conspiracy by the dealers here, and that line of thinking does absolutely no one any good.

I say you're speculating based on what I've been seeing.

If the problem was a Port issue, Tao wouldn't be shipping anything. I've been seeing mostly helmets coming in weekly to different customers in the US and Canada.

https://i.postimg.cc/h4XLBZkB/tao-helmets.jpg

Here's the master BoL for the top one listed. ONEYNB0BF8901600 If you want to track it, you can.. using the below link, but drop the 1st 4 characters... so use: NB0BF8901600

http://ecomm.one-line.com/ecom/CUP_HOM_3301.do?redir=Y

Tao vehicles have been going to Canada... Sorry but I can't give you any of the BoLs because I didn't save them, when I saw them. And because I'm using a free service, I can only see the latest BoL as they get posted. The post them in groups of 3.

I don't know what Tao USA is telling their dealers here, but someone not communicating.... either it's Tao USA to the dealers or the dealers aren't telling their customer.. I say this based on my what I've learned from watching these shipments. Also because back in mid May, I ordered a scooter. But before I ordered, I was able to speak with a guy at BV Powersports, who is the US distributor for Trailmaster.

Remember this was back in mid May. The guy from BV powersports told me they already had a schedule on when the next shipment for the specific scooter model I was looking for. Told me it the 2020 model was scheduled to be shipped in mid June. He was 100% right. I think it was the 3rd week of June, he got his shipment in.

If someone tells you products are being quarantined for Covid, that's total BS! Don't believe anything else that comes out of their mouth. Products that are shipped in don't get quarantined because of Covid. Even if they left port with covered in the Coronavirus, by the time (Average time from China to the west coast of US is 2 weeks) it got to port here, it would be dead.

I don't thing most freight containers are even opened for inspection. Based on tracking information, I'm seeing containers offloaded and going straight to rail for delivery to the end customer.

As for why Tao China isn't sending any vehicles to the USA, I have no idea. All I know is that I've seen BoLs for vehicles they've shipped.. again, they've been going to Canada. It's not many, but they are sending them. Last week I saw, I think, 2 containers marked as electric rec vehicles and 1 container marked as off road vehicles marked for Tao Canada. They also got a container of helmets too.

BTW, here's the summary on that BoL I listed above

Date
2020-07-23
Shipper Name
Zhejiang Taotao Vehicles Co., Ltd.
Shipper Address
NO 6 XINMIN RD XINBI ST JINYUN COUNTY LISHUI CHINA
Consignee Name
Teng Chang Inc.
Consignee Address
1326 W 9TH ST UPLAND CA 91786
Notify Party Name
Teng Chang Inc.
Notify Party Address
9520 7TH ST.UNIT E,RANCHO, CUCAMONGA,CA 91730
Weight
4827
Weight Unit
KG
Weight in KG
4827.0
Quantity
490
Quantity Unit
CTN
Measure
68
Measure Unit
CM
Shipment Origin
China
Details
4,827.0 kg
From port: Tokyo, Japan
To port: The Port of Los Angeles, Los Angeles, California
Place of Receipt
Ningbo
Foreign Port of Lading
Tokyo, Japan
U.S. Port of Unlading
The Port of Los Angeles, Los Angeles, California
U.S. Destination Port
The Port of Los Angeles, Los Angeles, California
Commodity
HELMETS SHIPPER'S LOAD COUNT & SEALED "THIS SHIPMENT DOES NOT CONTAIN ANY SOLID WOOD PACK ING MATERIAL"
Container
CAIU9038797
Marks Description
MADE IN CHINA
Carrier Name
ORIENT EXPRESS CONTAINER CO LTD
Vessel Name
NYK OCEANUS
Voyage Number
063E
Bill of Lading Number
OERT215701J05619
Master Bill of Lading Number
ONEYNB0BF8901600
Lloyd's Code
9312975
HTS Codes
HTS 6506.10

Oh.. if you want to see where the ship that's carrying this container is currently located..
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:407268/mmsi:351249000/imo:9312975/vessel:NYK_OCEANUS

I can't remember if marinetraffic shows travel history of the ships for their free service, but there are some sites online that do show history.. That's the reason I know these shipments take about 2 weeks from China to the US.

[crabjoe]

"In fact, I had levers show up yesterday from China that UPS and Amazon said delivery was attempted but could not be completed... Um.. they're sitting right here.'


Yep, COVID has everything messed up, not just China .I ordered parts from China the sane day i ordered some aluminum fat bars from here in the USA , I have since recieved the parts from China but the bars from here in the USA have still not appeared, despite contacting the Seller twice and then involving Ebay for help. The "transit" status has not been updated by the USPS for 3 weeks ,and that status was only put in after my initial contact of the Seller asking him for a package tracer .
So, apparently it can now take 6 weeks to mail some handlebars from the Chicago area to Florida ,and the USPS can effectively " lose" them twice in the process.

I think you're being tricked.

I've been ordering a bunch of stuff from Aliexpress and Ebay from Chinese sellers that say they have inventory in the US. They would charge a bit more for it, since the supposed inventory was here.

Here's what I found out. Most of these sellers don't actually have US inventory. They're still shipping from China.

Someone over there has come up with shipping service that uses USPS as the final carrier. This is how I've seen it work.

Whoever the carrier over there in China is, generates a USPS tracking number. They ship from there, then when it gets here and passes customs, they slap that USPS tracking number on it to get it to you. It's like they're remailing.. Like they ship to someone here and that person drops it off at the PO to send it to you. That's why it's taking over a month.

I've had packages appear with a Chinese logistics company label under the USPS label.

[dgl57]

It will be interesting to see what happens in August now that it's just a week away. That seems to be where the focus is at this moment. Thinking products would have to be sea bound over the next couple weeks to make that happen though. Also think August is when patience will run out for many people as it is the end of summer plus the virus uncertainty continues.

I noticed that partskit.com is showing some parts becoming available Sept. 2nd so maybe that is a good sign. They would know more about Tao than most. At least it shows Tao is making bike stuff.

[RedCrowRides]

@crabjoe
"I think you're being tricked.

I've been ordering a bunch of stuff from Aliexpress and Ebay from Chinese sellers that say they have inventory in the US. They would charge a bit more for it, since the supposed inventory was here. "


I believe this is exactly correct, based on the reply i recieved from EBay, along with a Refund .What Ebay wrote to me as reason for the refund was that Ebay was "Unable to recieve a working /valid USPS tracking number from the Seller ", despite there being one provided by the Seller with some very old and few updates. Apparently "some" Chinese based Sellers are presenting Inventory as if it is in the US , generating USPS Shipping labels for product they dont yet have , and order it from China , when recieved they add on their pre made label and reship to Customers.



They dont have US stock and it IS still coming from China and the pregenerated label assigned to it CAN be used to falsely give the impression "Item has been Shipped" which Ebay requires but in fact it hasnt been shipped , or at least not from within the US by the USPS because the item is still physically in China when that "been shipped" status is entered by the Seller ,along with the pregenerated USPS shipping label number.


So basically it's a Ebay Chinese Seller scam ,and that is how and why it took 6 weeks to get handlebars from Chicago- because the truth was, there was never any bars in Chicago, and they never got there yet from China for whoever the Seller in Chicago is, to affix the premade USPS label on and reship.

[ZiptieJonez]

I'm not speculating anything. That was the initial issue. However there has been an update. From what I was told, there was such a rush to get everything rolling again, there were quite a few mix ups and no one knows where anything is. Don't ask me how or why but that's what we we're being told. Shipments have left out but never reached their destination, and some ended up in the wrong destination. You can turn this into some sort of conspiracy where we loose business if that makes you feel better about the subject but truth is it's a cluster(you know what) right now.

[dgl57]

What?!! So now my Hellcat might be sputtering around Iraq somewhere? :ohno:

Just to be clear bud, I think 99.9% of US customers are backing our dealers. We know this is hurting your business and not your fault. The frustration is with China...but that is nothing new. I just think August might be a tipping point and many folks may call it a year. Maybe try again in the spring. Hope not for you guys sake.

[dgl57]

Thought I would pass along message sent to me this morning from Tao Motor Co...

"Unfortunately sir we do not have a solid ETA as to when the Hellcats will be available again. Due to changes made because of Covid 19 and the unexpected soar in sales our inventory state side has been hit hard and our factory is working as fast as they can to get every unit possible back here to the states as fast as possible."

I would say August deliveries are not looking good and maybe much further. :shrug:

[f15sim]

August is probably correct, it's the "2020" part that's suspect. ;)


g.

[dgl57]

If I was a dealer I would be thinking about continuing to offer pre-orders. Really kind of putting themselves out on a limb. Especially small dealers with shops. Maybe cancels vs pre-orders equals things out a bit.

[Arkbill]

I emailed Q9 today about delivery on a TBR7 and they answered that preorders would not deliver until late fall on that model.

[dgl57]

My next question to Tao was do you think it will at least be in 2020? I just received this message in return...

"To be honest sir I am not sure. I definitely think it is possible, but the factory is trying to make as many units as possible to restock all the branches over here in the states. First they have to make the product they know will sell for the upcoming season then they make everything else."

Hmm. :hmm:

[crabjoe]

My next question to Tao was do you think it will at least be in 2020? I just received this message in return...

"To be honest sir I am not sure. I definitely think it is possible, but the factory is trying to make as many units as possible to restock all the branches over here in the states. First they have to make the product they know will sell for the upcoming season then they make everything else."

Hmm. :hmm:

I swear, why don't these people just tell the truth instead of feeding us BS.

If they're building them, they know exactly how many are coming off the line. With that, they know when they will have enough for a freight container and when they might be able to ship. I'm talking reasonable estimates.

As for sales volumes because of pre-orders. That they might not know since the dealers are hold them. Still, they should be able to say we're making 30 of this model a day, so every four days, we ship 3 containers of them.

BTW, how can any manufacture not know how many they are making to figure out when they expect to ship?

Oh.. A few weeks ago, I emailed Tao USA. The person that responded to me said they had no idea when they would receive inventory because they were not in the dept that handles it. They said to contact the dealer so they can find out using their contact.

[dgl57]

I don't know either. The last part of the reply confuses me a little. Upcoming season? So are all of our pre-orders now considered "everything else"? Maybe I am misreading that part.

[Big Bird]

Thank God I canceled my order with Veloz. I would be well past my bank protection at this point. Coolster 150cc atvs aren't ca legal so I guess no atv for me this year. *runs off crying*

[crabjoe]

Here's an update on Frieght coming in.. And again, it's for Tao Canada and they're getting 2 shipments.

https://i.postimg.cc/15d9psYt/tao-canada.jpg


Date
2020-07-27
Shipper Name
Zhejiang Taotao Vehicles Co. Ltd
Shipper Address
NO 6 XINMIN RD XINBI ST JINYUN COUNTY LISHUI CHINA
Consignee Name
Tao Motor Canada Inc.
Consignee Address
170 BARTOR RD NORTH YORK ON M9M 2W6 CANADA TEFAX1
Notify Party Name
Tao Motor Canada Inc.
Notify Party Address
170 BARTOR ROAD NORTH YORK ON, M9M2W6 CANADA, TEL 1-416-748-6686 FAX, TE1-416-749-6686
Weight
9114
Weight Unit
KG
Weight in KG
9114.0
Quantity
42
Quantity Unit
CTN
Measure Unit
CM
Shipment Origin
China
Details
9,114.0 kg
From port: Ningbo, China
To port: Port of Tacoma, Tacoma, Washington
Place of Receipt
Ningbo
Foreign Port of Lading
Ningbo, China
U.S. Port of Unlading
Port of Tacoma, Tacoma, Washington
U.S. Destination Port
Port of Tacoma, Tacoma, Washington
Commodity
PASS VEH FOR SNOW GOLF CARTS SIMILAR VEHIC ALL TERRAIN VEHICLE
Container
TEMU8495576
Marks Description
ATV OFF ROAD USE ONLY / /
Carrier Name
YANG MING MARINE TRANSPORT CORP
Vessel Name
MOL PROSPERITY
Voyage Number
203E
Bill of Lading Number
YMLUW232390589
Lloyd's Code
9321031

You can track Yang Ming freight here: https://www.yangming.com/e-service/Track_Trace/track_trace_cargo_tracking.aspx

Remember I can only see the latest of the 3 listed above.. and that specific shipment, which is that detailed info above is showing 42 packages in this specific container.. and being it's vehicles, I have a feeling it's motorcycles.

[crabjoe]

I don't know either. The last part of the reply confuses me a little. Upcoming season? So are all of our pre-orders now considered "everything else"? Maybe I am misreading that part.

From a manufactures point of view, I don't think they consider anything "Pre-Orders". For them it's going to be this years model or next years model based on the VIN they assign. This "Pre-Order" non-sense is dealers just selling inventory they don't have, with expectations they will shortly get the inventory.

What would have made better sense for dealers taking pre-orders would have been to take a small $100 deposit. But I they they can since most probably aren't large enough to stay operational without selling product, even product they won't have yet, and these pre-orders are probably keeping them afloat.

BTW, I noticed on Q9's site that a bunch of stuff can't even be pre-ordered now. I wonder what that means?

[dgl57]

Think you are right and the shipping logs seem to show that they are indeed making things for upcoming seasonal sales only. Looks more and more like the Hellcats at least will not be coming anytime soon and are part of the "everything else." :shrug:

Maybe the dealers are backing off pre-orders because they have a feeling things are not going to arrive in a reasonable timeframe anymore. Why anger more and more people and spend everyday processing cancellations. Not fun and certainly not good for future business relations.

[tortoise]

Don't be surprised if replenishment inventory has a non-adjustable cap (https://www.reddit.com/r/scooters/comments/hyt1zf/idle_screw_cylinder_top/) over the carb idle-speed screw.

https://i.imgur.com/zWtHhSd.jpg

[crabjoe]

Don't be surprised if replenishment inventory has a non-adjustable cap (https://www.reddit.com/r/scooters/comments/hyt1zf/idle_screw_cylinder_top/) over the carb idle-speed screw.

https://i.imgur.com/zWtHhSd.jpg


Thanks for the heads up.. And based on that date stamp, I'm guessing everything being built now will have it.

I wonder how hard it will be to remove the dang thing?

BTW, I'm now thinking that part of this delay is emissions related... And that's why we're seeing vehicles going to Canada, but not to the US..

[dgl57]

Certainly hope it's not emissions related. My Poodle farting outside is more pollution than the choked down little 125cc Hellcat engine that even has the canister crap on it. I mean seriously, it's less HP than some push mowers. :crazy:

The Dremel fix...slot for a screwdriver. It's like it is made for that. Lol.

[f15sim]

Looks like a "challenge accepted" cap to me... :D


g.

[crabjoe]

Tao Canada is getting another container....

https://i.postimg.cc/rpNKd0kB/tao-canada.jpg

Tracking info:
https://www.yangming.com/e-service/Track_Trace/track_trace_cargo_tracking.aspx

Use BoL: W232389637

=======================

Date
2020-07-29
Shipper Name
Zhejiang Taotao Vehicles Co. Ltd
Shipper Address
NO 6 XINMIN RD XINBI ST JINYUN COUNTY LISHUI CHINA
Consignee Name
Tao Motor Canada Inc.
Consignee Address
170 BARTOR RD NORTH YORK ON M9M 2W6 CANADA TEFAX1
Notify Party Name
Tao Motor Canada Inc.
Notify Party Address
170 BARTOR ROAD NORTH YORK ON M9M, 2W6 CANADA, TEL 1-416-748-6686, TEFAX 1-416-749-6686
Weight
12240
Weight Unit
KG
Weight in KG
12240.0
Quantity
136
Quantity Unit
CTN
Measure Unit
CM
Shipment Origin
China
Details
12,240.0 kg
From port: Ningbo, China
To port: Port of Tacoma, Tacoma, Washington
Place of Receipt
Ningbo
Foreign Port of Lading
Ningbo, China
U.S. Port of Unlading
Port of Tacoma, Tacoma, Washington
U.S. Destination Port
Port of Tacoma, Tacoma, Washington
Commodity
PASS VEH FOR SNOW GOLF CARTS SIMILAR VEHIC ALL TERRAIN VEHICLE
Container
SEGU4365515
Marks Description
ATV OFF ROAD USE ONLY / /
Carrier Name
YANG MING MARINE TRANSPORT CORP
Vessel Name
ONE HOUSTON
Voyage Number
041E
Bill of Lading Number
YMLUW232389637
Lloyd's Code
9566382
HTS Codes
HTS 8703.10

[dgl57]

More passenger snow vehicles. Definitely making and shipping upcoming seasonal vehicles as per the message I received. Guess the hope is that there are also assembly lines building the machines we are all waiting for such as Hellcats, Hawks and etc.

Seems more and more like if you missed out on the production run that was here in stock that your pre-order is really just for the next normally scheduled run. For example, their "seasonal" production time for Hellcats is probably winter to ship out for spring sales. When they arrive the pre-orders get filled first and the rest sell from remaining stock with some getting pushed out to brick and mortar shops. If so, wonder how many people will let their pre-order/money slide until spring trusting they will get order then. :hmm:

[crabjoe]

More passenger snow vehicles. Definitely making and shipping upcoming seasonal vehicles as per the message I received. Guess the hope is that there are also assembly lines building the machines we are all waiting for such as Hellcats, Hawks and etc.

Seems more and more like if you missed out on the production run that was here in stock that your pre-order is really just for the next normally scheduled run. For example, their "seasonal" production time for Hellcats is probably winter to ship out for spring sales. When they arrive the pre-orders get filled first and the rest sell from remaining stock with some getting pushed out to brick and mortar shops. If so, wonder how many people will let their pre-order/money slide until spring trusting they will get order then. :hmm:

The description is a generic for almost anything motorized (non-electric since vehicles with electric motors actually state in in the description). And I don't feel it's related to snow. I say this because it's a 40' container with 136 items packed in.

I've been told a shipping container can carry around 40 full sized crated motorcycles. With it carrying 136 items, it's something small.

I have no idea how small a snowmobile can be, but the ones I've seen in person, were really large.

I'm probably wrong, but if I feel it's either small ATVs or some kind of mini bike.... An empty 40ft container comes in around 4 tons. This thing loaded is like 13 tons, so there's around 9 tons of stuff in there. 18000lbs/136 is about 132 lbs per item.

[dgl57]

Yeah my thinking was ATVs for Canada winter. Sure they are big sellers up there and China knows their markets.

Makes sense on the bikes. I was told a container holds like 60 of the smaller size Hellcats. If a 60 number shows up on a log sheet that could start to be good news...at least for baby bike folks.

[Deckard_Cain]

If so, wonder how many people will let their pre-order/money slide until spring trusting they will get order then. :hmm:

That's what I plan to do. To do otherwise is to either put myself at the back of the line, or just give up. Anyplace that gets inventory is going to have all those units slated to fulfill a preorder.

Jason

[RedCrowRides]

On top of the COVID and strained US/CHINA trade relations, we also now have record breaking flooding over a great deal of China ,so i am sure that is having an even further negative impact on Manufacturers getting parts in from Suppliers to build motorcycles with and then getting said motorcycles shipped to a port etc.



It's like a perfect storm of mishaps if you are trying to get a ChinaBike right now

but then again i guess that describes 2020 in general as far as i can tell.

[dgl57]

Several good points. I will probably just ride it out...pun intended. It's on a credit card so not out any cash per say. Plus, the more I watch MotoCheez videos the more I want the damn thing. We is big kids. :lol:

Another point is pricing. As of the price today I have saved $130 on Hellcat. That's new knobby tires and a carb.

[crabjoe]

Another point is pricing. As of the price today I have saved $130 on Hellcat. That's new knobby tires and a carb.

This is something that has me wondering what's going on...

I've been watching the pricing go up without much inventory out there and I'm wondering why..

Are dealers getting word from the distributors that wholesale pricing has gone up? If they're getting this kind of info, does it mean they also know about when inventory will arrive? Might dealers just doing it based on what they're seeing other dealers do? Maybe dealers are raising pre-order pricing to cover expenses they have? Since it's only pre-orders, they're probably selling much less, reducing their cash flow. Maybe something to prevent pre-order cancellations? Maybe a combination of a bunch of stuff? I have no idea, but I wish I knew what the pricing increase cause might be or more importantly, if the increase means vehicles are now scheduled to be shipped in?

[dgl57]

I was told prices were going up on them anyway...at least the Hellcats. And told that by pre-ordering you just locked in a lower price. Of course it also allowed them to continue selling stock they do not have in a hot market.

Hopefully it means they are getting close but I kind of doubt it. May be just taking advantage of the current supply and demand market. That naturally drives the price of things up. Remember the Cabbage Patch dolls.

Higher pricing could possibly slow the pre-ordering down a little though I doubt that is the goal. Rake in the cash while you can sounds more like the plan. :)

I just saw this morning that lumber prices have pretty much doubled as demand has shot up and saw mills can't keep up. People at home now being DIYers. Ridin and Buildin I guess.

[Deckard_Cain]

I was told prices were going up on them anyway...at least the Hellcats. And told that by pre-ordering you just locked in a lower price. Of course it also allowed them to continue selling stock they do not have in a hot market.

Hopefully it means they are getting close but I kind of doubt it. May be just taking advantage of the current supply and demand market. That naturally drives the price of things up. Remember the Cabbage Patch dolls.

Higher pricing could possibly slow the pre-ordering down a little though I doubt that is the goal. Rake in the cash while you can sounds more like the plan. :)

I just saw this morning that lumber prices have pretty much doubled as demand has shot up and saw mills can't keep up. People at home now being DIYers. Ridin and Buildin I guess.

I doubt the higher price will stop anyone from ordering who really wants one. Look at the Hawk/Tbr7's... when supply on those was dried up a couple months ago, X-Pro and a couple others on Amazon still had some inventory, but it was $200-$250 more in cost. Many people ordered from there anyways just to get one.

Personally, I waited it out and used that cost difference on all of the upgrades and mods to my Hawk.

Consider the Hellcats specifically, even at $1300, that's still 1/2 to almost a 1/3 the price of a gently used Honda Grom. New Groms are $4300 OTD from my local dealer. Hell, even at $1500 the Hellcat is a good deal. Vaders and others just as much so.

I don't think a little price increase will slow it down.

[dgl57]

I agree. A second stimulus check has been agreed to so cheap bikes may have just gotten another boost. Although the good riding season is closing for many folks soon. Plus, Christmas ads will probably start next month. :ohno:

If the Hellcat were to show up on Amazon right now I would probably grab one for a couple hundred more. :)

[crabjoe]

My issue with this is that it's an artificial shortage, as in they're just not shipping bikes to the US market. And the dealers are selling something that doesn't exist or know when it's might exist. Maybe they know and just not telling us?

I don't know how many pre-orders they might have, compared to how many they sold on average for this time of the year in the past, but if they don't materialize, what are they going to do? What's going to happen with us? That's got me worried.

Are they putting the $$ into some kind of escrow account to cover their costs when/if these bikes start appearing or have they been spending it to keep themselves afloat? I sure hope these dealers are banking it to cover costs for when they do appear.

BTW, Apollo has shipped 3 containers of dirt bikes to the US in July, that I'm aware of. And TaoTao has shipped motorcycle parts to BV Powersports. So stuff is coming in..

[dgl57]

Got me worried too. I hope they are banking it or at least have a big reserve nut to cover many refunds if bikes do not arrive fairly soon. If a dealer goes belly up so goes your pre-order money.

The more pre-orders they keep taking the farther out on a limb they go (unless they know something). That is another reason I think no movement or nothing positive happening this month will be a tipping point for many folks...maybe even me. I have been sticking up for dealers all along but we have not gotten ANY positive news or seen anything to give us some confidence. Despite the answers of "two weeks, two weeks and containers of bikes arriving daily" for months nobody has received a bike in their driveway.

I think Tao Motor Co. USA and others need to give honest answers to their customers. After months they are still "acting" like they don't know anything. Seriously?? They schedule, produce and ship these products!

Are there laws regarding the maximum amount of time allowed to pass before you deliver a pre-ordered product you took FULL payment for? I mean can a company just keep taking money and deliver the products whenever...3 months, 6 months, 12 months.......?

[dgl57]

Question to TX Powersports: "Any good news at all on a date the Hellcats will arrive to ship out to customers? Tao must know something by now. They manufacture them."

Answer: "HI these are on pre order only we are out of stock and more will be in stock in about 2 to 4 weeks time thank you."

Received this exact same email response in early June, early July and now this morning. Would think they would be one of the first to know something.

And they keep on taking pre-orders. :hmm: :shrug:

[Deckard_Cain]

Question to TX Powersports: "Any good news at all on a date the Hellcats will arrive to ship out to customers? Tao must know something by now. They manufacture them."

Answer: "HI these are on pre order only we are out of stock and more will be in stock in about 2 to 4 weeks time thank you."

Received this exact same email response in early June, early July and now this morning. Would think they would be one of the first to know something.

And they keep on taking pre-orders. :hmm: :shrug:

To be fair though, the people who answer these questions at txpowersports are always annoyed when you contact them, probably frustrated, seem apathetic and are otherwise the least helpful humans on Earth. I don't believe what they say; I think that's a canned reply.

TXpowersports still owes me "free gifts" with purchase, which were out of stock at the time of ordering, so they promised by phone to send me out at least the spark plug. That was a month ago.

At this point, I'm expecting a Fall 2020 delivery. Looking now for snow tires in a 12" tire size... lol.

[Murdabenne]

67 foot standard container with seal CCLU7464659 containing 96 count "Off Highway Motorcycle" loaded in Shanghai on July 19 onto the merchant vessel COSCO OCEANA (Hong Kong flagged vessel). It docked in the port of Long Beach CA 2020-08-03

The cargo was exported by
Quote:
CHONGQING HAOSEN MOTORCYCLE CO.,LTD
NO.7, XISHAN ROAD,
BISHAN DISTRICT,
CHONGQING CITY,CHINA
TEL:+86-238(I deleted the rest so as to not doxx the company)

and imported by
Quote:
RICKY POWER SPORTS, INC. (also known as RPS)
2425 CAMP AVE.#100,
CARROLLTON, TX75006
Tel: 972-(I deleted the rest so as to not doxx the company)
ATTN: MARCO (I deleted the rest for privacy).

There are a bunch of other containers as well. RPS is the supplier for TXMotorsports and a lot of those dallas area drop shippers.

[dgl57]

Probably be a run on knobby tires next. :lol:

I'm not confident of a 2020 delivery at this point. Think I will go ahead and send back the VM22 carb kit while I still can.

[dgl57]

[QUOTE=Murdabenne;344066][FONT=Times New Roman]67 foot standard container with seal CCLU7464659 containing 96 count "Off Highway Motorcycle" loaded in Shanghai on July 19 onto the merchant vessel COSCO OCEANA (Hong Kong flagged vessel). It docked in the port of Long Beach CA 2020-08-03.

Sounds like maybe small dirt bikes. Not sure what that company makes or if they are connected to Tao Motor Co. At least it is some movement I guess.

[Murdabenne]

[QUOTE=Murdabenne;344066][FONT=Times New Roman]67 foot standard container with seal CCLU7464659 containing 96 count "Off Highway Motorcycle" loaded in Shanghai on July 19 onto the merchant vessel COSCO OCEANA (Hong Kong flagged vessel). It docked in the port of Long Beach CA 2020-08-03.

Sounds like maybe small dirt bikes. Not sure what that company makes or if they are connected to Tao Motor Co. At least it is some movement I guess.


The 250s fit that import category (actually 239cc), and dual sport are often imported under the "Off Road" label.

FYI: That is the company that makes all the Hawk 250s for RPS and others, as well as the Bashan bikes for Peace Motors (BISHAN is an alternate spelling for the province). RPS is the one of the biggest Chinabike importers in the US, and they sell them to drop shippers like TxMorotsports and a pile of other places. So not a small company. And a lot of Hawk DLX 240 EFI are due in mid-late August, so this is probably them, given it takes a while to clear customs.

And I checked, it looks like several of these containers are there, meaning hundreds of "off road motorcycles" arrived the other day for RPS and other distributors.:tup:

[dgl57]

That would be good news for Hawk and Bashan customers. Probably all sold via pre-orders but at least some are possibly showing up.

Now head back out to sea and find some ships loaded with Tao Hellcats. I'm guessing boat loads of those have been sold. :lol:

[crabjoe]

Question to TX Powersports: "Any good news at all on a date the Hellcats will arrive to ship out to customers? Tao must know something by now. They manufacture them."

Answer: "HI these are on pre order only we are out of stock and more will be in stock in about 2 to 4 weeks time thank you."

Received this exact same email response in early June, early July and now this morning. Would think they would be one of the first to know something.

And they keep on taking pre-orders. :hmm: :shrug:

IMHO, they're not going to say anything that might have people cancelling pre-orders or stopping pre-orders. Right now, pre-orders are their bread and butter. Without them, there's no cash flow.

I just hope they're banking the cash so they can cover their inventory costs once Tao starts shipping. If not, we'll all be screwed..

[crabjoe]

Another shipment going to Tao Canada. No description as to content and and HS code to get an idea of what's in there.. but based on weight, it's motorized.

https://i.postimg.cc/fy2V97yR/tao-canada.jpg



Date
2020-08-05
Shipper Name
Zhejiang Taotao Vehicles Co. Ltd
Shipper Address
NO 6 XINMIN RD XINBI ST JINYUN COUNTY LISHUI CHINA
Consignee Name
Tao Motor Canada Inc.
Consignee Address
170 BARTOR RD NORTH YORK ON M9M 2W6 CANADA TEFAX1
Notify Party Name
Tao Motor Canada Inc.
Notify Party Address
170 BARTOR ROAD NORTH YORK ON, M9M2W6 CANADA, TEL 1-416-748-6686 FAX, TE1-416-749-6686
Weight
12528
Weight Unit
KG
Weight in KG
12528.0
Quantity
108
Quantity Unit
CTN
Measure Unit
CM
Shipment Origin
China
Details
12,528.0 kg
From port: Ningbo, China
To port: Port of Tacoma, Tacoma, Washington
Place of Receipt
Ningbo
Foreign Port of Lading
Ningbo, China
U.S. Port of Unlading
Port of Tacoma, Tacoma, Washington
U.S. Destination Port
Port of Tacoma, Tacoma, Washington
Container
YMLU8869587
Carrier Name
YANG MING MARINE TRANSPORT CORP
Vessel Name
MOL PREMIUM
Voyage Number
053E
Bill of Lading Number
YMLUW232391889
Lloyd's Code
9444261

[crabjoe]

67 foot standard container with seal CCLU7464659 containing 96 count "Off Highway Motorcycle" loaded in Shanghai on July 19 onto the merchant vessel COSCO OCEANA (Hong Kong flagged vessel). It docked in the port of Long Beach CA 2020-08-03

The cargo was exported by
Quote:
CHONGQING HAOSEN MOTORCYCLE CO.,LTD
NO.7, XISHAN ROAD,
BISHAN DISTRICT,
CHONGQING CITY,CHINA
TEL:+86-238(I deleted the rest so as to not doxx the company)

and imported by
Quote:
RICKY POWER SPORTS, INC. (also known as RPS)
2425 CAMP AVE.#100,
CARROLLTON, TX75006
Tel: 972-(I deleted the rest so as to not doxx the company)
ATTN: MARCO (I deleted the rest for privacy).

There are a bunch of other containers as well. RPS is the supplier for TXMotorsports and a lot of those dallas area drop shippers.

Good Find!

I don't know what brand this company sells under but in the last couple weeks, they've shipped 3 containers to RPS.


Date Supplier Customer Details 42 more fields
2020-08-03 CHONGQING HAOSEN MOTORCYCLE CO., LTD.
RICKY POWER SPORTS,LLC
OFF-HIGHWAY MOTORCYCLE AND PARTS
BILL OF LADING
2020-08-03 CHONGQING HAOSEN MOTORCYCLE CO., LTD.
RICKY POWER SPORTS,LLC
OFF-HIGHWAY MOTORCYCLE
BILL OF LADING
2020-07-29 CHONGQING HAOSEN MOTORCYCLE CO., LTD.
RICKY POWER SPORTS,LLC
OFF-HIGHWAY MOTORCYCLE
BILL OF LADING

Based on the info you posted, I found a 2nd container under the same BoL.

https://i.postimg.cc/Z5FLMRfF/1-Chongqing.jpg

[dgl57]

Interesting...as of this morning Q9 Powersports and TX Powersports have stopped taking pre-orders for the Hellcat. Now they are just noted as being Sold Out.

Could mean they have been told how many they are getting and suddenly all the bikes are now sold.

Or they have now been told there will not be any until next year sometime so better to stop selling them and offer immediate refunds based on this information.

Or they now know how many they are getting versus the pre-orders already on the books. And they have over sold them and will begin rolling out refunds ASAP starting with the earliest pre-orders. You cannot just keep taking and holding full payments for a product indefinitely. I believe there are legal issues involved.

Hmm. Remember earlier I wrote about dealers being out on a limb and also that many customers may end up getting an email saying sorry but we will not be able to fill your order. I sure hope that is not what is coming. We shall see. Dealers will get hammered for taking people's money while continually giving hope filled answers to customers for months. Again not their fault with little info coming from China.

I will hope for a good news email but will not be holding my breath. :/

[culcune]

Taotao is an independent company and seemingly is not able to make product at this point as evident in their not having most of their products here, or on the way. They are headquartered in the Dallas area. RPS is a subsidiary of Haosen aka Hensim, most known for the Hawk 250. They, too, are headquartered in the Dallas area. They are both unrelated. Also, Haosen or Hensim are not related to Bashan.

TXPwersports, one of the 'Manny' companies that is both hit or miss with members here, is and has been only a retailer as far as I can tell. Being in the Dallas area, they are able to sell a large quantity of RPS products and Taotao products.

Part of the possible reasons the shipment is listed as 'Off-road motorcycles' in the case of RPS is 1)Chinese seem to classify any dirtbike, enduro, or dual-sport as 'off-road' 2)The original Hawk 250 (the carb one) and Magician are classified according to the EPA as 'Offroad dirtbikes' 3)Some of the bikes are Viper 150's.

The Hawk DLX is 49-state certified as on 'On-highway motorcycle' according to the EPA/DOT. While many states will plate the carbed Hawk 250 and Magician (some that used to plate them no longer allow that loophole), they are technically offroad-only bikes.

[Ina Ditch]

power sports max is showing quite a bit of inventory according to their website, I find it hard to believe and have emailed them inquiring of it. they also are still showing an independence day sale so obviously they don't update their site as they should either if the sale has in fact ended.
anyone know anything of it?

[culcune]

I have heard that PSM is pretty much owned by Chinese. Chinese-Americans or Chinese from China, I am not sure, but on the West Coast, especially in the L.A. area, part of the reason the prices are so propped up in real estate no matter the economic conditions is that Chinese nationals own numerous homes there and use them for vacations, anchor babies, etc. We have sent much money overseas, and made millionaires left and right, they have lots of disposable income. Before I sound too political, that is why PSM is somewhat of a mystery.

What I understand is they get bonus checks written directly by manufacturers in China to move product. In other words, they can literally sell bikes for actually wholesale cost, and STILL make money. They also have cash on hand to purchase large remaining lots of bikes. For instance, right when COVID started rearing its ugly face in the spring, they bought the last of around 20 Lifan KP Mini 150's from American Lifan.

In other words, they apparently get preferential treatment of sorts directly from the manufacturers. If what I heard is fact (I heard it from a small L.A. area dealer who also ships nationwide and specializes in the Vader ;) ), it would make sense that they would have plenty of bikes but taking these times times into consideration (probably no Taotao bikes to speak of since they physically do not exist--but they might get first dibs when Tao does start sending containers this way).

[dgl57]

I also stated earlier somewhere that you may start seeing at least Tao bikes for sale on Amazon and other places first with that good old statement saying "Ships From US Warehouse." Meaning Chinese folks and/or Chinese owned dealers will sell many of the first containers for higher costs and maximum profits before sending any to US dealers. I hope that is not the plan.

I think things are going to hit the fan soon one way or the other. Lets hope bikes just start shipping and all the speculation can then go away. At least for now it's a way to vent...since we can't ride. :doh:

[crabjoe]

I also stated earlier somewhere that you may start seeing at least Tao bikes for sale on Amazon and other places with that statement saying "Ships From US Warehouse." Meaning Chinese folks and/or Chinese owned dealers will sell many of the first containers for higher costs and maximum profits before sending any to US dealers. I hope that is not the plan.

I think things are going to hit the fan soon one way or the other. Lets hope bikes just start shipping and all the speculation can then go away. At least for now it's a way to vent...since we can't ride. :doh:

I just checked the Q9 site to check on the Tao Bull 200, which is what I have on pre-order since May... It's now showing sold out too. No longer taking pre-orders. They actually had 2 Tao ATVs showing "Add to Cart". A 110 and a 150. Everything else was sold out except the Tao Rhino 250, which they're still taking pre-orders for...

I'm hoping they know what their allotment is and they've hit it is the reason that they stopped taking pre-orders. If not and they just forgot to set the Rhino 250 to sold out... then we might all be screwed.

What I don't understand is how or why is Tao Canada getting periodic shipments of vehicles and the US getting nothing?

As for how many vehicles they're building... I don't know but on Alibaba, Tao is still selling everything and their estimated delivery date hasn't changed... This makes me think that there might be some fighting between Tao USA and TaoTao China.. Especially since Tao USA (Based on what I've read in the past) isn't a subsidiary of Tao Tao China.

[dgl57]

Alibaba is one of those "other places" I was thinking about.

I don't know who is in charge of what but the man at the top of the Tao name needs to get with it. The name brand is taking a big hit just when they seem to be making some better products that customers want. :hmm:

[crabjoe]

Just saw this over at WholesaleATV..

==

****UPDATE****
Here is a list of what we know right now for products coming in and shipping out. We are and have been shipping out several hundred orders a week. Please be patient as we can only fill them as the containers arrive and are allocated, then they are allocated to orders in line and there are several thousand orders dating all the way back to April depending on the model.
*KYMCO Units - sold out until 2021s come in except for a few UTVs we have on the showroom floor.
**CFMOTO Units - sold out until 2021s come in sometime in late September or October except for a few UTVs we have on the showroom floor.
*Tao Tao kids units and dirtbikes have started coming in and we are only allocated a few at a time but we are constantly working through the lists on those and we are getting through the line fairly quickly on those. Tao go karts and 150 and 200s we still have no direct eta on container should be end of this month or September. We have heard that the Rhino 250s are coming any day but have not been contacted that they are ready to ship as of yet.
* Dongfang Units we still have no direct ETA on any products should be end of month or September.
*Apollo Dirtbikes have started arriving and we are currently working through the lists and getting them shipped out in the orders placed. Apollo atvs are arriving soon.
*Vitacci units are starting to arrive. 60cc Hunters will be arriving any day to ship in the order received. Vitacci scooters should be arriving the end of the month or September.
*Holeshots we are working on shipping out another 200 between this week and next.
*Icebear Scooters we have been shipping many of the models in the order received except for 50cc's they have not yet arrived to ship.
As soon as we are notified by any manufacturer that our units are in the warehouses and ready to ship we process them as quickly as we can. Please do not call, email, or post to ask about when your unit will be there. It is slowing us down trying to fill your orders and stay on top of the current situation all of us are facing right now. We are doing our best to get everyone their units as quickly as we possibly can during this time.
Thank you,
Wholesale ATV Team

[dgl57]

Now there is a dealer that got specific and gave useful product updates to their customers with pre-orders. Now the customer can decide what to do about their pre-order/money going forward.

All dealers should follow this lead. I believe they know some specifics and just need to spell them out.

I just returned my VM22 carb kit and jet kit. I will make a decision on the Hellcat soon but it would be great to have some specific intel to go on.

[dgl57]

Part of general August update from Q9 Powersports...

"We have a number of current pre-orders to fill, so placing a pre-order now, 8/1/2020, will not be able to be filled until Christmas time."

So no specific information on current pre-ordered products as far as what is actually on the move (or not) or any time frames. Apparently it means your April, May, June, July pre-order could be filled sometime before Christmas. That is my brilliant deduction anyway...lol.

[Deckard_Cain]

Part of general August update from Q9 Powersports...

"We have a number of current pre-orders to fill, so placing a pre-order now, 8/1/2020, will not be able to be filled until Christmas time."

No specific information on current pre-ordered products as far as what is actually on the move (or not) or time frames. Apparently it means your April, May, June, July pre-order could be filled sometime before Christmas. That is my brilliant deduction anyway...lol.

I took that to indicate about a 4 month delay.

So my May 28th order could arrive maybe just possibly by end of September.

Maybe.

[dgl57]

Maybe. Not quite sure that applies because there doesn't appear to be any Tao machines (such as Hellcats) being shipped to the US that we know of. No news those are even being produced right now.

[crabjoe]

I know this has nothing to do with Tao, but my buddy's above ground pool came in yesterday. He placed that order back in April and it just got here. When he ordered, he was originally told 4 weeks.. took months, but he it showed up.

For me its a sign in the right direction.

Oh the joke with his pool was that the reason they couldn't ship was because of the 6ft Covid rule... They couldn't figure out how to stay 6ft apart because the panels were only 3ft wide.. LOL

[crabjoe]

I took that to indicate about a 4 month delay.

So my May 28th order could arrive maybe just possibly by end of September.

Maybe.

I took it as BS... I still don't think they have any idea as to when something might arrive. I feel Christmas time frame is just a WAG.. based on their access to inventory getting reduced since April.

BTW, when I ordered the Tao from Q9 back in the 1st week of may, some of the sites were listing it as still available at that time. The only reason I had gone with a pre-order vs an instock order with someone else was because Q9 had a good reputation and Q9, at that time told me, they should have it in stock by mid May and at the latest, end of May.

Now, I don't know if these other sites actually had them instock or if it was just wishful thinking on their part since most of these units are drop shipped, but I'm kind of kicking myself for not taking the instock option..

I guess hindsight really is 20/20.

Oh well.. In the mean time, I picked up a Weber Smokey Mountain smoker for my boy and I to have something to do... I hope getting fat isn't going to be the theme. I order that on 8/4 and it arrived today.. It's put together so we just need to figure out how to cook on it.

[dgl57]

Many products are certainly having stock issues...RVs, trailers, bikes, motorcycles, ATVs, guns, ammo, etc. Logical pools would be on the list too I guess. It's all about standing in line right now.

I doubt the other dealer(s) had stock or maybe a couple left. It seems things went off the rails badly with Tao at least in late April. Rumors are they partly switched to Covid products...who knows.

I think Q9 is fine. They have been answering my questions on the phone or by message all along the best they can. Any seller in this unprecedented situation is going to try to hold on to customers. Their biz is on the line. Unfortunately for them and many others their eggs are all in one basket...China.

If several USA companies were building "low cost" motorcycles (God forbid) with all USA supplied parts it would be the same situation...no bikes available for months. Difference is these companies would likely be upfront with information to help dealers soothe the crowd. :lol:

[Deckard_Cain]

I ordered a cedar wooden playscape for my kids back in April too, it showed up last month, so a 3.. 3 and a half month wait.

Luckily, I ordered the exact day the manufacturer told the distributer/seller to stop taking orders, because they were overwhelmed and supply chains were done F'd up.

Not sure how much of that playscape had parts from China, but it certainly seemed to be affected like everything else.

[dgl57]

I think as long as companies taking pre-orders for any product offers a refund until the day an item ships things will remain fairly calm. This gives customers the power over their money on this crazy ride.

If they start playing games or getting cute with some kind of non-refundable fee, deposit or other hokey charge the game will change drastically. Right now most folks are cool with them holding the money to keep a place in line. But only because at any moment you can cancel for a full refund.

They need to just keep refunding money to those who wish to cancel for any reason. Then everybody quietly moves on and they just sell the product to the next person. Seems there are plenty of buyers out there right now. :)

[Deckard_Cain]

I think as long as companies taking pre-orders for any product offers a refund until the day an item ships things will remain fairly calm. This gives customers the power over their money on this crazy ride.

If they start playing games or getting cute with some kind of non-refundable fee, deposit or other hokey charge the game will change drastically. Right now most folks are cool with them holding the money to keep a place in line. But only because at any moment you can cancel for a full refund.

They need to just keep refunding money to those who wish to cancel for any reason. Then everybody quietly moves on and they just sell the product to the next person. Seems there are plenty of buyers out there right now. :)

I agree with all 4 (ish) of those statements.

Anyone who ordered a Hellcat prior to May 28th can feel free to cancel their pre-order. All that does it theoretically move me up the line once product is rolling in.

[crabjoe]

Not that these vehicles change much from year to year, if at all..... but I'm wondering if the stuff that might be being built are now considered 2021 my? Anyone know when these Chinese companies start rolling out the new model year?

[crabjoe]

Found this chart... Imports of vehicles to the US are trending up as of June.

https://i.postimg.cc/GhjJRPFt/import-trend.jpg

Dec (2019) - $25 B
Jan (2020) - $21.9 B
Feb - $22.8 B
Mar - $23.8 B
Apr - $10.5 B
May - $7.8 B
Jun - $16.3 B
July - Unknown for now.

For Comparison, Last year's (2019) numbers:
Dec (2018) - $26.6 B
Jan (2019) - $23.8 B
Feb - $23.6 B
Mar - $27.7 B
Apr - $25.5 B
May - $27.4 B
Jun - $26.6 B
Jul - $25.6 B
Aug - $26.4 B

[dgl57]

If Hellcats for example are not being built at the moment and may not be delivered this year you would think they will be labeled as 2021 models. Then again China seems to do everything different.

Would be interesting to know what those vehicles are on the chart. Probably all headed to distribution warehouses to login and then be drop shipped directly to customers based on all the pre-orders.

Maybe they are filling up these warehouses before any shipping starts. It's just interesting we keep hearing about containers coming in but I have yet to see anyone report getting a bike. There would be unboxings galore showing up on here, FB and YouTube if so. :hmm:

[crabjoe]

I'm pretty sure it's anything that's motorized, but not rail related.. It would be cars, trucks, tractors, motorcycles, etc...

Based on articles I found, they said motorcycle sales were way down so manufactures actually stop production for periods of time to not flood the market. One article was saying some models that were slated to be 2021 won't be released till 2022 because of the lack of demand right now. If that's true, I'm guessing it's the same with ATVs... Which tells me that these manufactures might have over did it.

I was at the local Honda shop the other day and they had 1 Honda, 1 Yamaha, and maybe 10 Husqvarna dirt bikes. There's definitely a shortage, but I'm now thinking the cause was because manufactures over did the build stoppage.

Oh well.. I guess all we can do is wait and hope that the dealers will come through with our orders... Still feel sorry for them because no sales is no income, but it pisses me off that they won't give us any real info, as in if they really don't know when they'll get inventory, just say it.. not this . in 2 week, 4 weeks, next month BS. It's like they're pulling time periods out of the air.. I swear, I use to think being a weatherman was easy because you could be wrong 90% of the time, but man.. powersports dealers might be right up there with them.

[Murdabenne]

Last I heard, one of the distributors told me in email that they were expecting more Lifan bikes in about 12 weeks, and lifan does make engines for a lot of other brands too. Hope thats a helpful data point.

[dgl57]

I hope that refers to new design and release 2021 machines being pushed back. Sounds like that is the case. There is to much catching up to do first.

If current models are so over sold that delivery possibly might be getting pushed back toward the end of 2021 the dealers are in big trouble. They will have to issue massive refunds. I doubt many folks will wait until late 2021 for their 2020 order. Not me.

Unfortunately when they stop taking orders for like Hellcats for example we have no idea what that means for production and delivery. Does it mean they reached a set sold limit that can actually be built and delivered yet this year? Or does it mean they are way over sold so sales just had to stop?

Lack of communication and transparency means continued speculation. That is how it works.

[culcune]

Member RedCrowRides just recently received his Orion RXB250L on 7/31 http://www.chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=27033

[dgl57]

Well, was able to get money back for returned VM22 carb kit and jet kit. To late to send back rear rack, CDI, sprocket and couple little things.

Now for the big decision. To give up on Hellcat or not. :hmm::hmm::shrug::shrug:

[crabjoe]

More stuff going to Canada... I wonder if they're shipping some of the vehicles from the Canadian warehouse to the US....

https://i.postimg.cc/GtM46b5Q/tao-canada.jpg

[dgl57]

I mentioned something about that earlier. I wonder if it is easier right now to dock and move inventory around from Canadian ports rather than US ports. I would imagine ours are pretty backed up and I'm sure certain products are getting priority.

I still go back to the email I received from Tao though. It sounded like they are not even building Hellcats right now. Not sure how many they can build a day or how that squares up with all the many pre-orders actually getting delivered. Just seems like many more months to me and probably 2021.

Would be great if Tao and others would let customers know something real but not going to happen.

[crabjoe]

I mentioned something about that earlier. I wonder if it is easier right now to dock and move inventory around from Canadian ports rather than US ports. I would imagine ours are pretty backed up and I'm sure certain products are getting priority.

I still go back to the email I received from Tao though. It sounded like they are not even building Hellcats right now. Not sure how many they can build a day or how that squares up with all the many pre-orders actually getting delivered. Just seems like many more months to me.

Would be great if Tao and others would let customers know but not going to happen.

Personally, I don't think it's an issue of ports being back up. I don't think the issue is port related at all. I say this because Tao is shipping through US ports but under the TaoTao Group name and its been motorcycle parts. I know it's the same company because their Customs paperwork uses the same address.

I'm not sure how NAFTA works, but if they ship to Canada and pay Canadian Customs, when they drop ship to the US, will they need to pay US Customs or does NAFTA make it tax free? Even if taxes don't change, shipping from Canada to the US has to be more costly than shipping within the US. I guess I'm saying that financially it doesn't make sense to ship to Canada to then ship to the US.

These container ships are also, almost always, stopping in the Port in Wa. I'm guessing when they dock there, they're probably off/on loading containers, so why go up to Canada to drop off 1 or 2 Tao containers? Nothing makes sense...

Being that Tao US does list the Tao Canada location as one of their warehouse locations, I have a feeling when dealers scream loud enough, possibly Tao US drop ships a vehicle from there? Got no idea....

It seems I'm just rambling now. LOL

BTW, wish me luck... I start my MSF riding course this evening.. 2 days in class and 2 days riding...

[Deckard_Cain]

Personally, I don't think it's an issue of ports being back up. I don't think the issue is port related at all. I say this because Tao is shipping through US ports but under the TaoTao Group name and its been motorcycle parts. I know it's the same company because their Customs paperwork uses the same address.

I'm not sure how NAFTA works, but if they ship to Canada and pay Canadian Customs, when they drop ship to the US, will they need to pay US Customs or does NAFTA make it tax free? Even if taxes don't change, shipping from Canada to the US has to be more costly than shipping within the US. I guess I'm saying that financially it doesn't make sense to ship to Canada to then ship to the US.

These container ships are also, almost always, stopping in the Port in Wa. I'm guessing when they dock there, they're probably off/on loading containers, so why go up to Canada to drop off 1 or 2 Tao containers? Nothing makes sense...

Being that Tao US does list the Tao Canada location as one of their warehouse locations, I have a feeling when dealers scream loud enough, possibly Tao US drop ships a vehicle from there? Got no idea....

It seems I'm just rambling now. LOL

BTW, wish me luck... I start my MSF riding course this evening.. 2 days in class and 2 days riding...

NAFTA was replaced by the USMCA, ratified by all three countries in March... officially took effect July 1st 2020.

Not that I think it affects this situation all that much.

[dgl57]

So I sent this message to a dealer early yesterday...

"I see you have stopped taking pre-orders for Hellcats. Does that mean you have sold all of them you can deliver yet this year? Or is it because there will be no more Hellcats arriving until next year sometime?"

And...no answer. :ohno: Should be simple to answer at least this much by now. :shrug:

We are now a month from when I started this thread. Still no bikes and maybe worse no solid answers as to when. At least for Hellcats.

[crabjoe]

NAFTA was replaced by the USMCA, ratified by all three countries in March... officially took effect July 1st 2020.

Not that I think it affects this situation all that much.


I knew it changed, but I couldn't remember the name.. And you're right, I don't think it would affect the current situation, since the good aren't made in North America. But I do wonder how it affects Customs taxes... As in if it's paid to Canada, does it have to be paid if it's shipped to the US from Canada? If payment has to be made to US Customs too, then I highly doubt they would drop ship from Canada to the US.. but if Canada changes less for import taxes and if the US doesn't collect any because it was paid to Canada, then it might be a smart to to ship to Canada then distribute from there. At least the things that the US charges high import taxes on.

[Medicbobs]

Ordered my Vader from Kronik Racing on 7/17 and am still waiting. Hopefully I get an update soon.

[dgl57]

Still no answer to my simple questions from the one dealer but another dealer told me today that maybe by the end of September some Hellcats will begin showing up.

I don't think they are coming anytime soon. :shrug:

[crabjoe]

Still no answer to my simple questions from the one dealer but another dealer told me today that maybe by the end of September some Hellcats will begin showing up.

I don't think they are coming anytime soon. :shrug:

LOL.. At least they're saying maybe.

When I last spoke with the dealer back in July, I was told August but possibly September. It was said to me as if they had inventory scheduled for August delivery and only if there was some crazy thing that happened, would it go into September...

Didn't believe them then and still don't believe them. Right now, I feel anyone's guess is as good as theirs.. but if they were being honest, they would should have said "We don't know, but we're hoping within the next month."

The ones that were taking pre-orders but now not will soon be hurting since their cash flow has to be really low now.

[dgl57]

I would think they have a pretty good bank roll right now. They have taken many pre-orders over months and probably have not had to pay anything out for the machines as yet.

If no machines start showing up to give customers some new confidence and excitement then there will be big time refund requests. I think that is when the money problems will become an issue...especially for the little guys.

[crabjoe]

Latest update from wholesaleATV.com.

For Tao, last time they said they had heard Rhino 250s would be coming in. Now they're saying Rhino 250 and Raptor 200s. No ETA, only that hey heard they were coming in.

==================

****UPDATE****
Here is a list of what we know right now for products coming in and shipping out. We are and have been shipping out several hundred orders a week. Please be patient as we can only fill them as the containers arrive and are allocated to each dealer nationwide, then they are allocated to customers orders in line and there are several thousand orders dating all the way back to April depending on the model that we are currently filling.


*KYMCO Units - sold out until 2021s come in except for a few UTVs we have on the showroom floor.


**CFMOTO Units - sold out until 2021s come in sometime in late September or October except for a few UTVs we have on the showroom floor.

*Tao Tao - Many units have started coming in and we are only allocated a few at a time but we are constantly working through the lists on those and we are getting through the line fairly quickly on those. Tao Adult go karts will not be arriving again unitl 2021. We have heard that the Rhino 250s and Raptor 200s are coming any day but have not been contacted that they are ready to ship as of yet.

* Dongfang Units we still have no direct ETA on any products should be end of month or September.

*Apollo Dirtbikes have started arriving and we are currently working through the lists and getting them shipped out in the orders placed. Apollo atvs are arriving soon.

*Vitacci units are starting to arrive. . Vitacci scooters should be arriving the end of the month or September.

*Holeshots we are working on shipping out another 200 between this week and next.

*Icebear Scooters we have been shipping many of the models in the order received except for 50cc's they have not yet arrived to ship. .

Trailmaster - Units are starting to arrive but we will not be taking anymore go kart or scooter orders for Trailmaster for the remainder of the year.

ACE - Ace vehicles have been continuing to arrive and are being filled in the order recieved.

Massimo/Bennche - inventory changes by the minute, except for the MB200's which are currently in stock, please call to check status of inventory on those specific units.

==================

[dgl57]

*Tao Tao - Many units have started coming in and we are only allocated a few at a time but we are constantly working through the lists on those and we are getting through the line fairly quickly on those. Tao Adult go karts will not be arriving again unitl 2021. We have heard that the Rhino 250s and Raptor 200s are coming any day but have not been contacted that they are ready to ship as of yet.

I kind of doubt Hellcats are part of the "many units". Still not a peep about them anywhere. Sounds like my info was right concerning dealer allocation. Thousands of pre-orders back to April and each dealer only being given a few at a time is not encouraging to say the least.

Plus, I just read about a new Boom Vader having bad wheel bearings and soft axles after only couple hundred miles. Been concerned about faster production equaling poor quality parts and little to no QC at this point.

All this combined with what I think will soon be a rush of refund requests tells me it would probably be wise to get out now.

:hmm::shrug:

[Deckard_Cain]

Today's email reply looking for a new timeline/ETA:


Q9 Service
10:19 AM (1 hour ago)
to me

Good morning Jason,

We are still receiving our first pre-order shipments and we are working as quickly as we can to fill all pre-orders. At this time, we expect to fill our remaining pre-orders between late September and mid-October.

We understand this timeline has changed a bit, and for that we certainly do apologize; COVID-19 has disrupted our operations severely, and we, along with customs operations and our suppliers, are working with our limited resources to the best of our ability to fulfill each and every order in as timely a manner as possible.

Once your order is ready for shipment, we will call you to make you aware and we will provide tracking information so you will know more specifically when you can expect to receive your order. Unfortunately, we are unable to provide a more specific estimate at this time due to the volume of shipments being received and the fact that we are operating with extremely limited staff.

If you’d prefer to cancel the order rather than wait for it to arrive, please let us know and we can do that for you; refunds typically post in 5-10 business days.

Thank you so much for your patience and understanding, and have a wonderful day.

[f15sim]

Translation:
"We have no idea what's going on, but we hope to have something eventually. We appreciate you allowing us to continue to earn interest on your money while we give you vague timelines."


(and yes, I'm THAT cynical.)


g.

[Deckard_Cain]

Translation:
"We have no idea what's going on, but we hope to have something eventually. We appreciate you allowing us to continue to earn interest on your money while we give you vague timelines."


(and yes, I'm THAT cynical.)


g.

Well, you're not wrong.

Personally, if it secures my spot to get a Hellcat this year or early next, I'm OK with them "holding onto my money" for me... if they earn interest on it while it's in their bank account, in escrow essentially, whatever. Matters not to me so long as I receive my motorcycle.

Honestly, we're all being a bit impatient considering the circumstances. We can be pissed and upset over the lack of clear or correct communication for sure; but in terms of the time it is taking, clearly no one here has ever commissioned a handmade, custom knife, firearm, or anything one-off when the maker is in high demand.

It is nothing in the custom knife world to wait 6 months to 5 years for a commissioned piece, and admittedly, many bladesmiths aren't much better with their timelines than Q9 or other motorsports dealers are being.

One knife maker had a 6 year waiting list... then he up and died. That's going to be a long long wait....

[dgl57]

My problem is not impatience. My problem is in fact the so called "communication". Q9 for one has been saying for months that there are containers coming in every week and we are filling orders. That is not being honest. There have not been any Hellcats delivered anywhere.

They and other dealers have been playing fast and loose with the truth to keep people's money and saying whatever to not stir up massive refunds. That is not right. Customers have paid in full and have a right to know what is really going on. Not dishonesty and/or half truths so people do not cancel their orders. Supposedly they have 1000s of pre-orders which means they are sitting on hundreds of 1000s of customer's money.

Now they changed the wording slightly to say they are just now getting units and shipping?? But don't expect deliveries until maybe October?? What?? :tdown:

I will be on the phone tomorrow. I'm out. I will get a used Rebel in the spring for 1500-2000.

[Deckard_Cain]

And that is a completely valid reason to be pissed. But I do see it here, on the Reddit and FB groups many people who are simply impatient and wondering why they can't get their China bike delivered to their house in 2 days or less (exaggerating, of course).

But in saying containers are coming in every week, that's probably true, just that there are no Hellcats on them. And they've always offered a refund processed within 5-10 days every time.

I've emailed and asked all these same questions to half a dozen other dealers as well, besides Q9, dealers that I have no orders with (but I did not tell them that), and they are all saying the things the same way, the same number of times.

This BS communication thing is not unique apparently.

[dgl57]

I knew it was going to be a wait. If they were actually shipping anything all these months their customers and they themselves would be letting folks know about it. Be it Hellcats or whatever.

My questions to them were specifically about my Hellcat order and I was told several times containers are coming in weekly and units are being shipped. I was obviously given hazy answers to string me along and to avoid a refund request. Not cool. Maybe not even legal...in my opinion.

I realize dealers are in a tough spot but you still should be upfront. Guess I just see "BS communication" as dishonestly at this point. I don't run my biz that way. I tell people the real scoop and leave it up to them.

[Deckard_Cain]

I knew it was going to be a wait. If they were actually shipping anything all these months their customers and they themselves would be letting folks know about it. Be it Hellcats or whatever.

My questions to them were specifically about my Hellcat order and I was told several times containers are coming in weekly and units are being shipped. I was obviously given hazy answers to string me along and to avoid a refund request. Not cool. Maybe not even legal...in my opinion.

I realize dealers are in a tough spot but you still should be upfront. Guess I just see "BS communication" as dishonestly at this point. I don't run my biz that way. I tell people the real scoop and leave it up to them.

Yeah you make good points. To say that it is irritating is an understatement.

I wonder if the people who may or may not be receiving their Hellcats (I'm not convinced anyone is either) are people who are not members on any msg forum, or social media groups. I mean, not every Grom clone owner is on Chinariders.net.

But realistically, I think all these dealers are tired of us calling and emailing, and I do think we are getting strung along with the timelines and fed lines of bullcrap to just placate us for the time being.

I got the same from txpowersports about my Hawk, wasn't sure it would ever show up until it actually pulled up to my driveway.

[Medicbobs]

Got my update from Pete @ Kronik. He got the shipment in the day before yesterday, was supposed to go get them yesterday, so they should be shipping any time now (Hopefully today). He did say he had some more in stock that were with this one so if you're looking for a Grom clone for 1400 shipped, they are a good one to grab one from right now. Super nice guy.

[crabjoe]

My problem is not impatience. My problem is in fact the so called "communication". Q9 for one has been saying for months that there are containers coming in every week and we are filling orders. That is not being honest. There have not been any Hellcats delivered anywhere.

They and other dealers have been playing fast and loose with the truth to keep people's money and saying whatever to not stir up massive refunds. That is not right. Customers have paid in full and have a right to know what is really going on. Not dishonesty and/or half truths so people do not cancel their orders. Supposedly they have 1000s of pre-orders which means they are sitting on hundreds of 1000s of customer's money.

Now they changed the wording slightly to say they are just now getting units and shipping?? But don't expect deliveries until maybe October?? What?? :tdown:

I will be on the phone tomorrow. I'm out. I will get a used Rebel in the spring for 1500-2000.

They haven't just been saying they've got containers coming in weekly. They've been giving timeframes and implied that there were containers just waiting at the Port, waiting for customs clearance. Then flat out told me months ago they had containers waiting to clear customs for weeks... which later I found was hog wash!

Pre-orders being filled now? and pretty much done by Oct? Didn't they say last month it was Aug-Sept?

Look.. I've had a pre-order in with them since the 1st week of May. At that time, when I ordered, the time frame given was by mid-May and the latest was end of May... Every time a deadline would come, it always got extened by 2 weeks.. End of May when I called, it became by mid-June and at the lastest end of June. This happened week after week and month after month. Then about a month ago, it became pre-orders would be filled by Aug and at the latest in September... A few more months of this, instead of next month or the month after, it'll change to next year or the following year.

They need to come clean and just be honest... I'll be shocked if I get my ATV in the next month.. And the only way I see it happening is if they're shipping out of Tao Canada for US orders because Tao Canada seems to be getting shipments of vehicles every couple of weeks. A couple containers of vehicles from Tao China landed at port on 8/23 for Tao Canada. I still don't see any vehicles coming in for Tao USA.

[dgl57]

I agree. Been told the same things. I stand by my earlier prediction of next year (at least for Hellcats) and probably much later than spring. If many dealers have over a 1000 orders and are only being given a small amount from each boat that adds up to a long wait. Especially since they have to start the order filling process from April.

These dealer tactics are not cool. They are playing fast and loose with folks money being how they collected full payments as opposed to just deposits. If a dealer goes belly up during this waiting period there will be no refunds coming. Bankruptcy locks everything down and creditors get their pie first. Meaning China.

I guess they can get away with it by offering full refunds up until an order is marked for shipment. That way it is the customers who are rolling the dice. Neat trick.

[crabjoe]

Latest Tao shipments to NA.. 3 containers came in on the 26th.

https://i.postimg.cc/fWdjTX3v/tao-canada.jpg

Date
2020-08-26
Shipper Name
Zhejiang Taotao Vehicles Co. Ltd
Shipper Address
NO 6 XINMIN RD XINBI ST JINYUN COUNTY LISHUI CHINA
Consignee Name
Tao Motor Canada Inc.
Consignee Address
170 BARTOR RD NORTH YORK ON M9M 2W6 CANADA TEFAX1
Notify Party Name
Tao Motor Canada Inc.
Notify Party Address
170 BARTOR ROAD NORTH YORK ON, M9M 2W6 CANADA, TEL 1-416-748-6686, TEFAX 1-416-749-6686
Weight
13608
Weight Unit
KG
Weight in KG
13608.0
Quantity
108
Quantity Unit
CTN
Measure Unit
CM
Shipment Origin
China
Details
13,608.0 kg
From port: Ningbo, China
To port: Port of Tacoma, Tacoma, Washington
Place of Receipt
Ningbo
Foreign Port of Lading
Ningbo, China
U.S. Port of Unlading
Port of Tacoma, Tacoma, Washington
U.S. Destination Port
Port of Tacoma, Tacoma, Washington
Commodity
PASS VEH FOR SNOW GOLF CARTS SIMILAR VEHIC ALL TERRAIN VEHICLE
Container
YMLU8795503
Marks Description
ATV OFF ROAD USE ONLY / /
Carrier Name
YANG MING MARINE TRANSPORT CORP
Vessel Name
FRANKFURT EXPRESS
Voyage Number
065E
Bill of Lading Number
YMLUW232392815
Lloyd's Code
9450442
HTS Codes
HTS 8703.10

[dgl57]

My message to Tao this morning and the response. Seriously, no information at this point?!

DGL

Aug 31, 2020, 7:23 AM PDT

Another month has now gone by. Any ETA or any info at all on the Hellcats? Delivery this year?

Thanks.


Josh (Taomotor)

Aug 31, 2020, 8:12 AM PDT

No information has been shared as of this point sir.

[crabjoe]

My message to Tao this morning and the response. Seriously, no information at this point?!

DGL

Aug 31, 2020, 7:23 AM PDT

Another month has now gone by. Any ETA or any info at all on the Hellcats? Delivery this year?

Thanks.


Josh (Taomotor)

Aug 31, 2020, 8:12 AM PDT

No information has been shared as of this point sir.

At least you're getting a response from them. I've emailed Tao a few times and got a response 1 time. And that response was to contact the dealer because they have more info.

Can you do me a favor? Ask this guy Josh why there are containers of vehicles going to Tao Canada and if US dealer fulfillment comes out of their warehouse up there? Give him this latest BoL, YMLUW232392815, as an example, to see what he has to say.

Thanks!

[dgl57]

Here is your question and answer. :hmm: :tdown:

DGL

Why are containers of vehicles only going to Tao Canada such as BoL, YMLUW232392815 and not to the US? Are US dealer orders coming down from the Tao warehouse up there now?

Thanks.

Josh (Taomotor)

Aug 31, 2020, 10:45 AM PDT

I am not sure who provided you with a container number sir, but you are making an assumption from one container number. As I said before, we have not received any word on the Hellcats as of yet, I will not discuss the company logistics any further. This email is for end users that need technical support with their units, if you wish to get further updates regarding the Hellcat, please stay in contact with a local dealer in your area or one of our many online dealer.

[crabjoe]

Here is your question and answer. :hmm: :tdown:

DGL

Why are containers of vehicles only going to Tao Canada such as BoL, YMLUW232392815 and not to the US? Are US dealer orders coming down from the Tao warehouse up there now?

Thanks.

Josh (Taomotor)

Aug 31, 2020, 10:45 AM PDT

I am not sure who provided you with a container number sir, but you are making an assumption from one container number. As I said before, we have not received any word on the Hellcats as of yet, I will not discuss the company logistics any further. This email is for end users that need technical support with their units, if you wish to get further updates regarding the Hellcat, please stay in contact with a local dealer in your area or one of our many online dealer.

He sounds upset. Seems like you hit a nerve with that question.. He didn't even bother to say if dealers can fulfill from their Canadian warehouse.

I'm not sure how they operate, but Tao USA has the Canadian warehouse listed on their website as one of theirs. But the same location has it's own website as if they're just Tao Canada.

[dgl57]

One last try... :tdown:

DGL

Aug 31, 2020, 1:03 PM PDT

That is one example of many containers is why I asked. We customers who have paid dealers in full months ago with a substantial amount of money have a right to know when we are going to receive anything. I think we have a right to solid answers not a bunch of I don't knows from Tao and your dealers. I do not think it is even legal to take full payments and string customers along for months with no answers. How can you not know anything about production and shipping schedules at this point?

Thanks.

Josh (Taomotor)

Aug 31, 2020, 1:14 PM PDT

That is a very simple question to answer. This email is for end users who need tech support for their units. We handle tech issues and issues with parts. We have nothing to do with shipping, we do not monitor production and all I was told when I asked was the same thing I told you already, which is the factory is working as fast as possible to restock all branches state side so they can take care of their dealers. If you have already paid a dealer for the product and don't believe it to be legal, ask him for your money back.

Yeah, might have hit a nerve. Or maybe the refunds are starting to ramp up now and dealers are getting pissed at Tao too. They are pushing all the heat off on them and they will be the first to go down. Interesting he picked up on the legality as well. Like get your money back sir and go away so others don't hear about that and wonder too.

[Bruces]

The Tao Tao dealers in Canada have been advertising for the last 3 or so weeks now ,I had not seen anything in months but they are now for sure .I don’t think there is any Tao street legal bikes available in Canada ,other than those scooters ,but they have piles of atv’s listed .

[crabjoe]

I'm surprised he's even responded... I wonder what he would have said if you asked for a contact at Tao USA that handles logistics?

There's no way that someone at Tao USA doesn't know when they're expecting vehicles.. telling customer and their dealers that Tao China is working hard to fulfill orders is a cop-out. They've been saying that for months now with nothing to show.

They must have been building stealth vehicles... and now can't find them to ship over.

[dgl57]

I think it is time to support the US and/or Japan. I know there is some China stuff in them but at least it's not 100%. Even used ones are much better.

[dgl57]

Canceled my order this morning. I feel bad for US dealers and what they are having to deal with. I do not feel bad for China except for their enslaved workers.

Will probably be leaving chinariders. It was nice talking with you folks on here.

I hope your vehicles show up sooner than later. At least you moved up one spot out of 1000s this morning if waiting on a Hellcat. :)

[Deckard_Cain]

I received a call this morning from Q9 Powersports regarding the status of the hellcat. They stated that they are not expecting any hellcats to arrive until early next year. No specific month, could be January, February, not really sure.

They said that they do have the Icebear Fuerza in Stock, but it doesn't have free shipping.

The guy I spoke to, He said that they can’t get a straight answer from Tao USA or from any other contacts in mainland China.

I’m in a very privileged and unique position where I can simply wait for it to arrive. So that is what I am going to do.

I realize that isn't everybody so feel free to cancel your orders of you wish. It just places people like me further ahead once they do come into stock.

In fact, the guy at Q9 recommended that if I didn't want the Icebear, and for some reason or another I don't, to cancel. But he acknowledged that doing so does lose my place in line.

[dgl57]

So I was correct and now someone is finally admitting it will be next year and even then nobody knows when. I think many dealers have known that for a while, at least concerning Hellcats. I am positive Tao USA has known. They just didn't want a lot of people canceling pre-orders.

The heat must be ratcheting up so now looks like dealers are actually advising folks to cancel. It was nice having all that free money for months though.

I could have waited it out as well but at this point am not into supporting China anymore than necessary. It actually felt good seeing that chunk disappear from my credit card balance. :)

Hats off to Q9 for handling my order cancellation quick and easy.

[crabjoe]

I received a call this morning from Q9 Powersports regarding the status of the hellcat. They stated that they are not expecting any hellcats to arrive until early next year. No specific month, could be January, February, not really sure.

They said that they do have the Icebear Fuerza in Stock, but it doesn't have free shipping.

The guy I spoke to, He said that they can’t get a straight answer from Tao USA or from any other contacts in mainland China.

I’m in a very privileged and unique position where I can simply wait for it to arrive. So that is what I am going to do.

I realize that isn't everybody so feel free to cancel your orders of you wish. It just places people like me further ahead once they do come into stock.

In fact, the guy at Q9 recommended that if I didn't want the Icebear, and for some reason or another I don't, to cancel. But he acknowledged that doing so does lose my place in line.

It's as we've all been speculating.. that they had no idea when they would receive any inventory and they had just been pulling delivery dates out of their butt At least they came clean to you.

I'm going to call them to see what they say about ATVs, and I'm guessing they're either going to lie again by saying either within the next 2 months or in 2021.... which is actually a lie, if they don't can't get answer from Tao as to when they might get any shipments. I feel the only truthful answer from them would be "We don't have any idea and the way it looks, it might be never."

This is a guess, but if a product on their site isn't open for pre-orders, it's because they have no idea if and when they might get inventory.

Well, I guess I have a decision to make.. and I have a feeling that I need to get a refund and purchase from well known brand from a local dealer. Sure the price will be higher, but so will the quality and support.

As for the price, based on what these China dealers have been doing, raising prices without delivering a thing, the difference from the well known brands are shrinking..

Decisions, decisions...

[Deckard_Cain]

It's as we've all been speculating.. that they had no idea when they would receive any inventory and they had just been pulling delivery dates out of their butt At least they came clean to you.

I'm going to call them to see what they say about ATVs, and I'm guessing they're either going to lie again by saying either within the next 2 months or in 2021.... which is actually a lie, if they don't can't get answer from Tao as to when they might get any shipments. I feel the only truthful answer from them would be "We don't have any idea and the way it looks, it might be never."

This is a guess, but if a product on their site isn't open for pre-orders, it's because they have no idea if and when they might get inventory.

Well, I guess I have a decision to make.. and I have a feeling that I need to get a refund and purchase from well known brand from a local dealer. Sure the price will be higher, but so will the quality and support.

As for the price, based on what these China dealers have been doing, raising prices without delivering a thing, the difference from the well known brands are shrinking..

Decisions, decisions...

Exactly right.

For me, the difference new to new of a Hellcat vs Grom is still $3200. And finding a used Grom in my area that is unmolested and bone stock is nigh impossible. And even still, a $2500 used Grom is twice what I prepaid for a Hellcat.

Obviously the quality is light-years beyond anything Chinese, but these are the concessions I'm willing to make.

[crabjoe]

Other than more helmets coming into the US.. There looks to be a shipment of ATVs going to Tao Canada again.

Date
2020-09-02
Shipper Name
Zhejiang Taotao Vehicles Co. Ltd
Shipper Address
NO 6 XINMIN RD XINBI ST JINYUN COUNTY LISHUI CHINA
Consignee Name
Tao Motor Canada Inc.
Consignee Address
170 BARTOR RD NORTH YORK ON M9M 2W6 CANADA TEFAX1
Notify Party Name
Tao Motor Canada Inc.
Notify Party Address
170 BARTOR ROAD NORTH YORK ON, M9M 2W6 CANADA, TEL 1-416-748-6686, TEFAX 1-416-749-6686
Weight
14904
Weight Unit
KG
Weight in KG
14904.0
Quantity
108
Quantity Unit
CTN
Measure Unit
CM
Shipment Origin
China
Details
14,904.0 kg
From port: Ningbo, China
To port: Port of Tacoma, Tacoma, Washington
Place of Receipt
Ningbo
Foreign Port of Lading
Ningbo, China
U.S. Port of Unlading
Port of Tacoma, Tacoma, Washington
U.S. Destination Port
Port of Tacoma, Tacoma, Washington
Commodity
PASS VEH FOR SNOW GOLF CARTS SIMILAR VEHIC ALL TERRAIN VEHICLE
Container
YMLU8744384
Marks Description
ATV OFF ROAD USE ONLY / /
Carrier Name
YANG MING MARINE TRANSPORT CORP
Vessel Name
NAGOYA EXPRESS
Voyage Number
060E
Bill of Lading Number
YMLUW232394136
Lloyd's Code
9450428
HTS Codes
HTS 8703.10

[Deckard_Cain]

@crabjoe I think that's mostly what they'll be manufacturing and importing for the fall/winter season. Probably right after New Years' they'll start going back to motorcycles.

But then Feb 12th is Chinese New Year... so count on a good half a month of stuff shut down for that.

[JakeD]

I wonder if I “owned a large dealership of other products” and wanted to inquire about how fast they could ship me a few containers of bikes, how soon could they quote me to have them here?

[krat]

My personal scope of wonderment covers the fact that we can not get the China bikes we crave, but there is a never ending supply of Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Benelli, BMW and Harley Davidson motorcycles coming out of the factories next door to the ones that make ours! In some cases they come out of the same buildings.

I also know that in GB the tremendous market for 125cc Chinese motorbikes and scooters is fully stocked, the dealers have plenty.

This is a move to drive up demand so they can increase prices to "just cheap enough to compete" with the major brands being built in the building next door.

Our 250cc dual sport bikes will likely come back at a standard $2500 and up rather than the present $1500 and up, or the prices will go up soon afterward.

[Big Bird]

My personal scope of wonderment covers the fact that we can not get the China bikes we crave, but there is a never ending supply of Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Benelli, BMW and Harley Davidson motorcycles coming out of the factories next door to the ones that make ours! In some cases they come out of the same buildings.

There is also a shortage of Japanese bikes right now, dealers were jacking up prices of Honda Groms for one thing, now they are all sold out. My buddy is having a hard time finding a 250cc dual sport Honda or kawasaki at the moment.

I also know that in GB the tremendous market for 125cc Chinese motorbikes and scooters is fully stocked, the dealers have plenty.
There is plenty of 125cc chinese motorcycles being delivered every day. I see them as I am involved with multiple groups on FB with people taking delivery all the time.

This is a move to drive up demand so they can increase prices to "just cheap enough to compete" with the major brands being built in the building next door.

Our 250cc dual sport bikes will likely come back at a standard $2500 and up rather than the present $1500 and up, or the prices will go up soon afterward.

There is still plenty of china 250cc dualsports available right now. Some dealers you have to put a deposit and wait a few weeks because demand is high. For some reason people are hung up on Tao Tao. You could go with another brand and be riding months ago. :hmm:

[Big Bird]

PSM has a couple tao tao's in stock. Maybe they are starting to trickle in.

Black Rhino
https://www.powersportsmax.com/product_info.php/cPath/169/products_id/18023

Orange DBX1
https://www.powersportsmax.com/product_info.php/cPath/169/products_id/21698

[crabjoe]

PSM has a couple tao tao's in stock. Maybe they are starting to trickle in.

Black Rhino
https://www.powersportsmax.com/product_info.php/cPath/169/products_id/18023

Orange DBX1
https://www.powersportsmax.com/product_info.php/cPath/169/products_id/21698

Just clicked both links and they're out of stock now. LOL.. I wonder how many they had?

I just got a response from Q9 about my Bull 200 order.. they're saying 3-5 weeks from now.. which is in line with what I heard back in late August.. which was Sept or Oct time frame...

I did ask if this time frame was a guess. They replied this was the latest info from their supplier.

[JakeD]

I wouldn’t hold your breath.... I was told 3 weeks ago that it would be mid September... after disappointing my son for the third time, I asked if it would be safer just to tell him the end of October, and they said there was a pretty good chance it would get here before then.... but there was a pretty good chance it would get here in July...

[JakeD]

Crossing fingers for Christmas delivery... that would only be a 6 month wait... I called today to ask for an update... I am cool with we really aren’t sure yet... but they don’t even have something that says, we have 500 orders for your model and you are 150th in line. Seems weird that they wouldn’t at least be keeping track of it that way... Well, eventually I will be making a post for help on setting things up... argh.

[idahojason]

When and what did you order? I ordered a 200 Bull ATV from Q9 June 8, they just keep saying probably end of this month, every month.

[JakeD]

TBR7 and a DB27.... TX-powersports has them in stock, supposedly, so evidently they aren’t all pulling from the same warehouse. Or they are and allotments are tight... I am confident that I could get them squared away with a system that would at least give folks a better idea of when things might come in... but I am sticking with them for now. I am sure they are overwhelmed, but running the company the way it always has been run without innovating, is a not a great way to get long term business.

[crabjoe]

When and what did you order? I ordered a 200 Bull ATV from Q9 June 8, they just keep saying probably end of this month, every month.

I've got the same on order from Q9 since May 6th.

I have a feeling that they, as in all these dealers of Chinese products, don't have as many orders as they make it seem. With not much to sell, they're probably running on a skeleton crew to keep their doors open.

I hope for ours and their sake that the Chinese start shipping some products to their US distributors. The other option I see is for some of these dealers banding together to import them directly. I say this because when I check Alibaba, all these products are for sale, but to get a decent price, you have to order in fairly large quantities. Way more than what any one dealer might sell in a year of a given model.

[JakeD]

I wonder how large an order you would have to put together to get a good price? Seems to me that if you scoured all the Facebook pages and all the forums, you could get enough to pack a couple containers...

Is that your suspicion? That they are holding orders until they actually have enough to place one for an entire load of a single bike type to get the prices down? I should have some of my Taiwanese friends call and ask what is going on..

[crabjoe]

I wonder how large an order you would have to put together to get a good price? Seems to me that if you scoured all the Facebook pages and all the forums, you could get enough to pack a couple containers...

Is that your suspicion? That they are holding orders until they actually have enough to place one for an entire load of a single bike type to get the prices down? I should have some of my Taiwanese friends call and ask what is going on..

I don't think they're holding orders. I think for whatever reason, Tao USA just isn't importing them.

Here's the link on Alibaba for Tao Bull 200s that they'll sell to anyone. This is actually better equipped than what Tao USA sell us.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Tao-Motor-Bull-200-Quad-ATV_60799174396.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.no rmal_offer.d_title.1bfa7407hq2W4Y

If you looked, you'll see the sale price is $899 if you over more than 100 of them, negotiable if you order over a 1000 units and $2599 for 100 or less.

Being that Tao USA buys huge numbers of Tao vehicles and the Bull 200 sold here isn't was well equipped, they probably way less than $899 a piece.

A theory I read was that the reason for the shortage is because the Chinese are trying to raise prices. They're creating a artificial shortage to get the pricing to rise, then will eventually start shipping normal amounts again.

Who really knows what's going on other than the Chinese and their importers? And as far as I can tell, both are tight lipped.

BTW, they're still importing a bunch of helmets... and for some reason, recently started importing electric powered scoots and atvs... It's weird... I wish I spoke Chinese because I'd call them and hassle the hell out of them till I got some answers.

[crabjoe]

Back in early September I asked Q9 when I might get the Bull 200 I ordered back in May. At that time, they said 3-5 weeks, which would have put by the end of this month. I emailed them the other day for a status and this time, it's now by late Nov or early December..

I feel like they've been lying to me all year, and it's worse now because when I asked them over a month ago, I asked if the 3-5 weeks was a guess or if they're being told this. At that time, they said it was info from their supplier.

What kind of supplier.. which I would say is Tao USA would lie to their retailers month after month? I really with these retailers would just say "We don't know because we're not getting any info." if they're just making delivery dates up. If they're truly getting bad info from Tao USA, I wish they would post it to prove it's Tao USA playing games. Because I know someone knows what's happening because this is no way to run a business.

BTW, Tao Canada did just get a shipment of toys that landed on 10/15 in Vancouver. As did GVA Brands. It seems nothing has landed in the US for about a year for Tao. And based on the ATM-50 scooter going out of stock then being available again, I'm thinking everything is being shipped to Tao Canada for North American distribution. Because if that wasn't happening, they'd be no Tao 50cc scooters available, but they are again.. although at a price that's about $200 more than it was back in the Spring.

[JakeD]

Yeah, I noticed that Tao isn’t managing to send out much of anything. Seems strange to send them to Canada and then to the US... someone is getting stuff from Tao, because TX powersports seems to have stuff... I’m just not sure what company name they are shipping from or to... seems odd that a company that has shipped thousands of containers and a company that has received thousands would just stop... unless they are starting new groups to ship from to stay under the radar...

[JakeD]

I wonder if this has Impacted things, or if they started up under another importer/exporter name? https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2020-03/documents/finaldecisionandordertaotaousainc.pdf

[crabjoe]

I wonder if this has Impacted things, or if they started up under another importer/exporter name? https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2020-03/documents/finaldecisionandordertaotaousainc.pdf


With Trump hitting China with tariff increases, I thought that might have been the reason why there were no imports directly to the US. But it seems more likely what you found is the real culprit.

Based on import info I could find, the last vehicles brought into the US was in 11/2018. And that was under the importer name of Tao Motor Inc. Under the importer name of TaoTao USA, nothings been shipped in since 2/2018.

Below is the last 3 shipments to Tao Motor Inc, 4575 EDISON AVE CHINO CA 91710.

https://i.imgur.com/PuGZiTv.jpg


Here's the last 3 for Taotao USA, 2425 CAMP AVE SUITE 100, CARROLLTON TX 75006, USA

https://i.imgur.com/E46fJGK.jpg

[Deckard_Cain]

I wonder if this has Impacted things, or if they started up under another importer/exporter name? https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2020-03/documents/finaldecisionandordertaotaousainc.pdf

Well I think this is a BINGO right here. Court doc dated March 2020.

So two things are going to happen now, either Taotao China/Jinyun/Tao USA are going to redesign or purchase compliant catalytic convertors (increasing the cost of the bike) and then have to either submit a new COC application, or make sure the new convertors meet the original specification...

OR ... TaoTao stops production of those models forever.

But given the 100,000+ numbers of highway use motorcycles (street legal) stated in the court doc, I'm guessing this was happening on ALL of their street legal machines and that they won't abandon that product or market completely.

What is sad is that so many owners of Taotao street legal bikes rip the exhaust off right away anyhow, and install one with NO catalytic convertor at all.

So the environmental impact is the same anyways.

[crabjoe]

Well I think this is a BINGO right here. Court doc dated March 2020.

So two things are going to happen now, either Taotao China/Jinyun/Tao USA are going to redesign or purchase compliant catalytic convertors (increasing the cost of the bike) and then have to either submit a new COC application, or make sure the new convertors meet the original specification...

OR ... TaoTao stops production of those models forever.

But given the 100,000+ numbers of highway use motorcycles (street legal) stated in the court doc, I'm guessing this was happening on ALL of their street legal machines and that they won't abandon that product or market completely.

What is sad is that so many owners of Taotao street legal bikes rip the exhaust off right away anyhow, and install one with NO catalytic convertor at all.

So the environmental impact is the same anyways.

When I started reading the doc, it felt a little like Deja vu and I see why now.

About 10 years ago, the EPA dinged them, but at that time, the fine was much less.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2014-03/documents/sa-imports-taotao-062810.pdf

[JakeD]

My research has them shipping under 3 or 4 names to TaoUSA... A load just left to GVA Brand this week labeled ATVs... I’m assuming there is some sneaky sneaky going on... in the immortal words of Oleta Adams....
“ You can reach me by railway, you can reach me by trailway
You can reach me on an airplane, you can reach me with your mind
You can reach me by caravan, cross the desert like an Arab man
I don't care how you get here, just get here if you can…"

[crabjoe]

My research has them shipping under 3 or 4 names to TaoUSA... A load just left to GVA Brand this week labeled ATVs... I’m assuming there is some sneaky sneaky going on... in the immortal words of Oleta Adams....
“ You can reach me by railway, you can reach me by trailway
You can reach me on an airplane, you can reach me with your mind
You can reach me by caravan, cross the desert like an Arab man
I don't care how you get here, just get here if you can…"

I saw the shipment to GVA brands.. But I'm pretty sure it's a separate Canadian company. They've actually been getting shipments from TaoTao China. They haven't been getting nearly as many shipments as Tao Canada, but they've been getting them.

The shipments to Tao Canada has lately been mostly electric vehicles. A couple months back they got some scooters and next thing I saw was dealerships having the ATM-50 scooters showing "in stock" To be honest, if these shipments to Tao Canada showed up in the US for sale, I'm not sure how they got around any EPA issues or even possible tariff issues to bring something into the US from Canada, that's not Canadian made.

Until Tao Tao can get these vehicles to meet emissions and also eliminate their EPA fine, I just don't see how they could get anything into the US for sale, especially vehicles meant to be street legal.

Personally, I think if I don't see traction as to ATVs start becoming available by the end of Nov, it's take to cancel my order. I probably should cancel now being that other dealers are saying they don't expect any Bull 200s till 2021 and even then, they don't know when they'll actually be available. Heck, all the dealers have been saying they're expecting Rhino 250s for a couple months now and even they're still not available.

VITACCI (RPS) has been getting shipments in but they're NOT TaoTao. Very similar, but not the same. So there's hope for a TaoTao shipments, but Jiangsu Tiking, builders of Vitacci, isn't under EPA investigation or have a huge fine hanging over their head either.

[JakeD]

Any thoughts on Apollo v. Tao for quality?

[culcune]

When I started reading the doc, it felt a little like Deja vu and I see why now.

About 10 years ago, the EPA dinged them, but at that time, the fine was much less.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2014-03/documents/sa-imports-taotao-062810.pdf

Around the same time, there was a company called Wildfire, headquartered in Ohio. The majority of their products were OEM by Lifan. We also had American Lifan headquartered in Dallas, TX (vs. So. Cal) which was a mostly completely different company than today's American Lifan. They had nothing to do with Wildfire (American Lifan did not) but would get into trouble on their own thanks to a little 49cc 2-stroke scooter.

The EPA cracked down on Wildfire in a similar manner to Tao, with tens of thousands of bikes alleged to be scofflaws. At the time, pre-Amazon (Amazon might have been around but they weren't selling motorcycles), Chinese bikes were mostly sold on Ebay, Wildfire being no exception. Well, once the fines hit, and accusations (Lifan as the OEM was mentioned in the court filings) flew, Wildfire was no more.

The story of American Lifan: American Lifan seemed to be some kind of franchisee of Lifan in China (not really, but they seemed to be some kind of independent importer). They tried to paint themselves as the only authorized US distributor for Lifan, but others got around A. Lifan and sold bikes and parts themselves. Hooper or Hopper in the Pacific Northwest was one such outfit, and he was actually more reputable than Am. Lifan who seemed like they were becoming more and more shady. There were other Chinese people in the L.A. area selling Lifan bikes via Ebay. If I remember correctly, the very popular LF200-GY 5 dual-sport was one of the, if not THE, first Chinese bike with EPA/DOT certification. Most other brands were like the Hawk with only EPA certification as off-road motorcycles, but most states, including California (seemed to depend on which DMV office--it seemed the rural ones registered them vs. the urban ones), allowed plating. American Lifan tried to shut down the others, and there was a lot of infighting going on. Soon after, when they tried to certify a 50cc scooter, there were some improprieties found by the EPA and American Lifan shut down (the economy was tanking, which really shouldn't have affected cheap transportation, but it did).

I tell you this sad tale (two tales) because Tao could go under. Hopefully not, but it could happen. From what I understand, Tao is pretty much a North American company, meaning you won't find them sold all over the world or domestically in China. I believe Canada and US. They are kind of a niche brand specifically for our markets.

On a side note--the current American Lifan is an offshoot of Lifan in China. They came to life circa 2015-ish, as far as bikes go, with the introduction of the Pony 100. It was a copy of the Honda Ape 100 mini dual-sport sold in Japan and elsewhere (not here). It was a neat little bike with a vertical 99cc thumper (as opposed to the horizontal thumpers found in the majority of minis--those based on pitbikes). The company also distributes small engined tools (i.e. generators)

[JakeD]

I’m kinda torn... I talked with Dalton, over at Q9 today. I gotta say, if all the people over there had the customer service skills of Dalton, there would be less bad reviews online. Sounds like they are getting ready to roll into June’s orders. There is hope for December, but of course no guarantees. Guess my expectations are more for the spring. I’m gonna stick with them for now. I didn’t ask what label Tao is shipping under of if they are coming out of Canada. Dalton, if Q9 is lurking... they ought to give you a raise.

[crabjoe]

I’m kinda torn... I talked with Dalton, over at Q9 today. I gotta say, if all the people over there had the customer service skills of Dalton, there would be less bad reviews online. Sounds like they are getting ready to roll into June’s orders. There is hope for December, but of course no guarantees. Guess my expectations are more for the spring. I’m gonna stick with them for now. I didn’t ask what label Tao is shipping under of if they are coming out of Canada. Dalton, if Q9 is lurking... they ought to give you a raise.

Start June pre-orders? Was this specific to given vehicle or was he speaking in general about all their back orders?

I'm asking because I'm trying to figure out if "Dalton" is just a smooth talker, if somehow my early May order got lost, or if he's being honest because he was telling you about a specific model within a brand.

If you can't tell, I have a very hard time believing anything they've been saying. Because all the only answer about deliveries I've been getting from them is, "It'll be shipped to you in 2-4 week", which changed in "late Sept to by the end of October", and as of early Oct, "by the end of November, possibly early December".

When they requested I put in reviews for products that haven't been shipped yet, I put in truthful review... that the review was negative based on not ever receiving the product. They responded to me in email telling me what happened isn't how they do business.. That was months ago. And based on my dealings with them, it sure seems like they just keep blowing smoke...

The only thing they've done right, since I've placed my order with them in early May, is that they've stopped taking pre-orders on most of the products. Even that took them months and months to do.

[Deckard_Cain]

I’m kinda torn... I talked with Dalton, over at Q9 today. I gotta say, if all the people over there had the customer service skills of Dalton, there would be less bad reviews online. Sounds like they are getting ready to roll into June’s orders. There is hope for December, but of course no guarantees. Guess my expectations are more for the spring. I’m gonna stick with them for now. I didn’t ask what label Tao is shipping under of if they are coming out of Canada. Dalton, if Q9 is lurking... they ought to give you a raise.

Start June pre-orders? Was this specific to given vehicle or was he speaking in general about all their back orders?

I'm asking because I'm trying to figure out if "Dalton" is just a smooth talker, if somehow my early May order got lost, or if he's being honest because he was telling you about a specific model within a brand.

If you can't tell, I have a very hard time believing anything they've been saying. Because all the only answer about deliveries I've been getting from them is, "It'll be shipped to you in 2-4 week", which changed in "late Sept to by the end of October", and as of early Oct, "by the end of November, possibly early December".

When they requested I put in reviews for products that haven't been shipped yet, I put in truthful review... that the review was negative based on not ever receiving the product. They responded to me in email telling me what happened isn't how they do business.. That was months ago. And based on my dealings with them, it sure seems like they just keep blowing smoke...

The only thing they've done right, since I've placed my order with them in early May, is that they've stopped taking pre-orders on most of the products. Even that took them months and months to do.

My order was from May 29th... no update on my order either.

I did email them and sent/explained the PDF about the new EPA violations alleged.

They "assured" me that the Tao vehicles, specifically the Hellcat, are in compliance. Not sure if that is because the HC doesn't have a cat convertor, has an "offroad use only" sticker or something, or what.

Also they stated more motorcycle inventory is expected early 2021, which is what they had told me since this summer. So that ETA has not changed in my talks with them.

Of course, they also said I could still cancel if I wanted to. I was very close to doing so and ponying up the extra for a Boom Vader gen 2.

For now, I wait. I'll give it til Feb/Mar and check again.

[JerseyTBR7]

I ordered a TBR7 back in July from Q9 and kept getting pushed back every month. I hung in there but eventually just gave up.

Finally in late September, I cancelled my order with Q9.

I ordered from TX Powersports, and it arrived to my door in less than a week, along with the title in the mail the same day.

I was very happily surprised with TX Powersports/Arlington.

I can't comment on the shipping situation given the pandemic, but it does seem odd why one supplier has a plentiful stock of TBR7 models and Q9 could get none. And it turned out to be just about the same exact low price too. It did not make sense, but hey, we move on. Hopefully Q9 can get their inventory situation straightened out.

[culcune]

You have to take into account that Tao is headquartered in the Dallas area. So is RPS. TXPowersports sells numerous TBR7s and Hawks without even really having to try, not to mention they probably have some backdoor deals with Manny.

Another retailer with a lot of clout (they are a lot more insider, as in China itself) is Powersportsmax in the greater metropolitan Los Angeles region. They rebrand a whole slew of bikes with their 'X-Pro' name, such as X-Pro Hawks.

[JakeD]

Or, Q9 has no idea what they are doing. I just had a conversation with a guy on Facebook who had ordered in September, his delivery will be Monday... If he truly receives it on Monday, I may pull my order and order from somewhere else. It seems as though they are holding out old orders for lower amounts in hopes that people will cancel and then they only need to fulfill the orders for the raised prices. If that is what is going on, that isn’t a good thing.

[crabjoe]

They "assured" me that the Tao vehicles, specifically the Hellcat, are in compliance. Not sure if that is because the HC doesn't have a cat convertor, has an "offroad use only" sticker or something, or what.

I thought the Tao Hellcat was street legal, No?

BTW, from my understanding, even offroad only vehicles have emissions requirements. Not sure if it's as strict as a street legal vehicle, but I do know they have emissions requirements. That's why many offroad only vehicles can't be sold in California.

Anyone know how cats work? I'm asking because I recently found out my bike, which I didn't think had a cat actually has two. One is in the header pipe and the 2nd one is built into the silencer (muffler).

[Deckard_Cain]

I thought the Tao Hellcat was street legal, No?

BTW, from my understanding, even offroad only vehicles have emissions requirements. Not sure if it's as strict as a street legal vehicle, but I do know they have emissions requirements. That's why many offroad only vehicles can't be sold in California.

Anyone know how cats work? I'm asking because I recently found out my bike, which I didn't think had a cat actually has two. One is in the header pipe and the 2nd one is built into the silencer (muffler).

Hellcat is street legal, yes. But not having one in front of me and going off of the youtube videos and pictures I've seen, the convertor on the bike must be very small.

They work by chemically altering the make up of the exhaust gases to be less harmful. Specifically they use oxidizing and reduction reactions to reduce NO2 emissions. If you strip of the Nitrogen and even Nitrogen Oxide, you can allow the remaining Oxygen gases to escape on their own as regular oxygen gas, O2. Which is obviously less harmful.

[idahojason]

I received an email from q9 today saying they are going to refund, and can't fill order on Bull 200 from 6 months ago.

[Deckard_Cain]

I received an email from q9 today saying they are going to refund, and can't fill order on Bull 200 from 6 months ago.

I just got the email from Dalton at Q9 about my hellcat, and a text... Tao is jerking them around and they just can't keep doing this, so they've cancelled and refunded all outstanding orders.

Inventory may be back in the Spring of 2021, but since Taotao jacked prices up now 2 times to the distributers/dealers, who knows how much it will cost.

At this point, I'm thinking my backup plan needs to kick in gear, and just pony up $300 extra for a Boom Vader gen 2.

Lord knows, come spring the Taotao will likely be the same price anyhow.

[culcune]

At this point, I'm thinking my backup plan needs to kick in gear, and just pony up $300 extra for a Boom Vader gen 2.

Lord knows, come spring the Taotao will likely be the same price anyhow.

Check out Kronik Racing in Simi Valley, California. The owner, Pete, is the Vader guru--he sells them, works on them, sells stock parts and performance parts for them, and has modified quite a few of them. He is relatively close to the Boom! warehouse about an hour and a half from his store, and is tight with them, so you really cannot go wrong with ordering from him. He has a very good reputation here. His hours are 12:00-6:00 Pacific time, and I suggest to call him at least to see if you would go that route. He is not a fan of Taotao, and will tell you why. Otherwise he would sell them; I don't think it is just a sales pitch to get you onto a Vader.

www.kronikracing.com

[Deckard_Cain]

Check out Kronik Racing in Simi Valley, California. The owner, Pete, is the Vader guru--he sells them, works on them, sells stock parts and performance parts for them, and has modified quite a few of them. He is relatively close to the Boom! warehouse about an hour and a half from his store, and is tight with them, so you really cannot go wrong with ordering from him. He has a very good reputation here. His hours are 12:00-6:00 Pacific time, and I suggest to call him at least to see if you would go that route. He is not a fan of Taotao, and will tell you why. Otherwise he would sell them; I don't think it is just a sales pitch to get you onto a Vader.

www.kronikracing.com

Great minds.... as they say..

I had emailed Kronik at the beginning of the month and Pete replied, gave me his direct work email to contact him; said plenty Vader in stock and ready to ship.

I emailed him directly last night, said my Hellcat ordered got cancelled, and I'm kinda glad for it now. That once my refund is processed and back in my account, I want to order a gen 2 from him.

I/m fairly positive that any and all of the parts I ordered for the Hellcat will fit the Vader too. Levers, shifter, LED turn signals, VM22 carburator....

Now to explain to my wife why, in the middle of a pandemic, I needed a 4th motorcycle.

[crabjoe]

I just got the email from Dalton at Q9 about my hellcat, and a text... Tao is jerking them around and they just can't keep doing this, so they've cancelled and refunded all outstanding orders.

Inventory may be back in the Spring of 2021, but since Taotao jacked prices up now 2 times to the distributers/dealers, who knows how much it will cost.

At this point, I'm thinking my backup plan needs to kick in gear, and just pony up $300 extra for a Boom Vader gen 2.

Lord knows, come spring the Taotao will likely be the same price anyhow.

I got a call from them yesterday evening. They said they had sent me an email the day before, which I did not see.. Still can't find it in my email box.

They told me they're cancelling my order because because Tao has increased pricing 4x since I ordered and they haven't received any stock. Said they weren't sure when it would come in. This last part, they should have started with when I ordered in May.

I told them it was BS because the whole purpose of pre-ordering was because, as they stated, "Pricing was locked in". His reply was Well, they've increased prices 4 times since you ordered and blah, blah, blah...

Seems to me, they never knew when they would get stock and just played us all. And this was a way of bring in income for them, while selling nothing.

It's along the same lines as their last answer when they told someone here that they were clearing out their May pre-orders and were starting with June.

IMHO, this was and is a crooked company... I'm tempted to take them to small claims court over this.. I don't know if I can file here or if it has to be where they're located, but this is BS.. They've had my $$$ for over 6 months stringing me along and now their cancelling it because they say they're going to lose money.. when the whole point of them taking pre-orders was us to get them was to lock in the price, and for them to possibly take a loss. This was their offer, not something we asked for.

[Big Bird]

I got a call from them yesterday evening. They said they had sent me an email the day before, which I did not see.. Still can't find it in my email box.

They told me they're cancelling my order because because Tao has increased pricing 4x since I ordered and they haven't received any stock. Said they weren't sure when it would come in. This last part, they should have started with when I ordered in May.

I told them it was BS because the whole purpose of pre-ordering was because, as they stated, "Pricing was locked in". His reply was Well, they've increased prices 4 times since you ordered and blah, blah, blah...

Seems to me, they never knew when they would get stock and just played us all. And this was a way of bring in income for them, while selling nothing.

It's along the same lines as their last answer when they told someone here that they were clearing out their May pre-orders and were starting with June.

IMHO, this was and is a crooked company... I'm tempted to take them to small claims court over this.. I don't know if I can file here or if it has to be where they're located, but this is BS.. They've had my $$$ for over 6 months stringing me along and now their cancelling it because they say they're going to lose money.. when the whole point of them taking pre-orders was us to get them was to lock in the price, and for them to possibly take a loss. This was their offer, not something we asked for.For some reason the rhino 250's are making it in to stock. However they have a 50% increase in price over the original pre-covid pricing. And yet the TBR7's seem about the same price they were before. I don't get it. Unfortunately tao tao is pretty much the only option for a adult sized atv in CA so I will be waiting until they drop pricing back to where it was before I get a china ATV.

[Deckard_Cain]

I got a call from them yesterday evening. They said they had sent me an email the day before, which I did not see.. Still can't find it in my email box.

They told me they're cancelling my order because because Tao has increased pricing 4x since I ordered and they haven't received any stock. Said they weren't sure when it would come in. This last part, they should have started with when I ordered in May.

I told them it was BS because the whole purpose of pre-ordering was because, as they stated, "Pricing was locked in". His reply was Well, they've increased prices 4 times since you ordered and blah, blah, blah...

Seems to me, they never knew when they would get stock and just played us all. And this was a way of bring in income for them, while selling nothing.

It's along the same lines as their last answer when they told someone here that they were clearing out their May pre-orders and were starting with June.

IMHO, this was and is a crooked company... I'm tempted to take them to small claims court over this.. I don't know if I can file here or if it has to be where they're located, but this is BS.. They've had my $$$ for over 6 months stringing me along and now their cancelling it because they say they're going to lose money.. when the whole point of them taking pre-orders was us to get them was to lock in the price, and for them to possibly take a loss. This was their offer, not something we asked for.

Small claims could be a viable option.... Except that they're already giving you a full refund and courts may see that as satisfaction of your grievance.

[JakeD]

I called Q9 yesterday, giving them the benefit of the doubt. Their website was showing TBR7’s off pre-order and they said they had enough to fill all the back orders, they just had to get through them all. I asked about my son’s DB-27 no news on that one. They are selling IceBear, and so I offered to switch my son’s bike to one of those... but it looks like they are on pre-order. If Jan hits and no DB-27, I will see what my options are.

[Deckard_Cain]

@JakeD

I'd try here:

https://www.superiorpowersports.com/110cc_Dirtbike_Apollo_DB27_p/ap110db-27.htm

Or here..

https://www.familygokarts.com/shop/motorcycles-dirt-bikes-700/apollo-db-27-110cc-kids-dirt-bike/vt-apollo-db27-110-green