Carburetor vs. EFI -From a Regulatory/Legal Perspective

[tpelle]

I have questions regarding the use of carburetors on Chinese bikes, such as the Dongfang, LiFan, Zongshen, etc., and how they get around emissions regulations.


I note that pretty much all other current production bikes, outside of the Chinese bikes, have Electronic Fuel Injection. I know that the manufacturers "market" EFI as being a step forward in so far as smoother running, more power, and improved reliability. However, my experience with other "machinery", such as lawn and garden equipment, that they seem to run perfectly well with carburetors. As a matter of fact, I can only think of one carburetor "failure" in the last 45 years, and that was with the float valve on the carburetor on mt old 1970's Cub Cadet tractor! So I have no aversion at all to carburetors, and actually prefer them over EFI - especially with the upcoming regulations heading our way.


I've heard that the new Euro 5 emissions regulations require that the ECU's include software that makes the bikes "tamper proof". If you decide to so much put a high flow air cleaner, or an aftermarket exhaust on your engine, or go even further by trying to use a "fueling tuner" such as a Power Commander to change the fueling of your engine to make it a run a little more rich to improve throttle response, idling, and cut down on combustion temperatures, the Euro 5 ECU software will detect these mods and will "throw a code", and even activate a "limp home" mode.


So why does whatever those wacky Europeans decide to do affect us here in the good ol' USA, the Land of the Free? Because the manufacturers all are making "world" machines, and don't want to go to the extra considerable expense to make a special "modification tolerant" version of their ECUs for the U.S. market.


But finally, after all that, I am getting around to my question: How are the makers and importers of Chinese carburetor-equipped bikes able to sell them in the USA? Do they have some sort of exemption from having to meet emission regulations, or do they just bite the bullet and not sell their products in States like California with stricter regulations?


Does that mean that someone like CSC is not able to sell their San Gabriel SG250 in California?


I'd be interested in hearing some discussion of this matter. If this has been covered before, sorry, but please just point me to that discussion.


Edit to add:


Here's a blog about Euro 5 Anti Tampering software:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtGaWQhnlng&t=5s

[Bruces]

Once you have been here a while ,you will notice all the carb bikes run very lean and need to have a proper jet installed in the carb to make them run correctly .They are purposely sent with the very lean jet so they pass emissions ,even though they do not run correctly .The carbs generally come with tamper proof screws ,this satisfies the emission police ,but a 6 year old with a dremel can deal with those in short order .

[broncorides]

Hey tpelle, before Jan 1, 2022 it was actually fairly easy to get a carburated bike CARB approved for California. A new law that was passed in 2020 but didn't go into effect until Jan 1, 2022 (I believe) has made it very hard for a carburated bike to get California approval now for the model year of 2022 going forward. That being said in pretty much every state it's still relatively easy to get a cleaner carbed bike approved as street legal (check out the 2022 Yamaha V-Star 250, it's still carburated).

Regarding the ability to sell a carbed bike in California down the line, to my understanding once a bike has a green sticker/CARB approval it has it forever. Meaning that even if the regulations get stricter in the future, the bike that originally met emissions standards will remain street legal forever.

For a bit more peace of mind here's the EO that gives CARB approval to the SG250 and the TT250 for the 2022 model year:

https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/classic/msprog/nvepb/executive_orders/EO%20Files/B__0001/cscm_hmc_m1730026_229_1d0_h__bx--0001.pdf

I'm not a lawyer but if you buy a 2022 SG250 today it's my understanding that you'll be able to ride or sell it forever in California

[tpelle]

Thanks for the replies. I live in Kentucky, so I would not expect to have any issues with registration here. I would be concerned should it happen that, when I finally decide to buy, all of the engines are being supplied with EFI. As to California, well, I don't want to sound like a grump, but the voters who voted in all of the dingbats that passed these laws.....well, you get what you voted for.


(I worked on a big project outside of L.A. about maybe 10 years ago, and the apartment that my employer rented for me actually had a sign on the apartment building that stated that "cancer-causing materials were used in the construction of this building" or something to that effect. I asked about it, and someone told me that Californians are living in a constant condition of denial, because they know that too much sunlight causes skin cancer but they haven't figured out yet how to put a warning label on the sun.)

[JFOlivier]

Don't these dumbasses in California know that if you want to put a sign up on the sun you got to do it at night. Now the future of ECU's if you get into electronics, you can buy many little computer boards for $5 to $10. If the Authorities involved really crack down on manufacturers ECU's one of these days you will find others available on the sort of grey market that you will be able to adjust to tune the motor cycle any which way you want. Of course the Authorities are going to object just like they will if they find out you are removing your cat and I guess emmisions testing will soon be the norm until we get to zero emmisions status and we will be expected to ride public transport powered by fuel injected sewrage, But for the tune up enthusiast you will still be allowed to tune up your bicycles.

[tpelle]

Where I live in Kentucky it's at the very northern-most point of the state, right across the river from Cincinnati, Ohio. There are two major Interstate highways that run concurrently north-south through there, and on the Kentucky side this Interstate I-71/i-75 descends a big steep hill. There's thousands of truck per day that take that route, and are either engine-braking down the hill or have the gas pedal matted, blowing out black smoke, pulling up the hill.


Quite a few years ago now the EPA sampled air quality in that valley and found that the particulate emissions were very high. So they decided to make the gas stations in Campbell County, Kenton County, and Boone County Kentucky sell a sort of reformulated gasoline that cost about 10 cents per gallon more, and cut your gas mileage by about 10%. Of course that did nothing to solve the problem, because the emissions were from the diesel trucks, who, because the prices were higher in Northern Kentucky, filled their big saddle tanks down in Central Kentucky anyway before they got this far north.


Part of this legislation was to cause all car and light truck motorists in those three counties to have to get an emissions test every two years. This was one of those tailpipe proctology tests. This cost $25.00 as I recall. So the cost of this program was paid for by the auto and light truck drivers that lived in those three counties, who, if you remember, weren't the cause of the issue in the first place.


Then, just to further screw things up, they accommodated the less affluent owners of older, more worn-out vehicles by instituting a provision in the law that said that, if their vehicle failed the test, they were responsible for having remedial work done on their vehicle to the tune of $50.00, and bring the receipt for that work with them back to the test station, and they would then get the approval sticker anyway!


So if people had reason to believe that their old smoker would fail the test no matter what, they would just get tested and then when they failed, they would just get a tune-up to cover the $50.00 requirement, then go back and show the receipt, and then be good for another 2 years.



Finally, after enduring this farcical situation for 10 or so years, we had a sort of voter revolt that, in the end, resulted in the closing of the test stations and the removal of the requirement to have to use the reformulated gas.


So this proves that the people still have the power. They just have to persist in its exercise.

[tpelle]

Don't these dumbasses in California know that if you want to put a sign up on the sun you got to do it at night. Now the future of ECU's if you get into electronics, you can buy many little computer boards for $5 to $10. If the Authorities involved really crack down on manufacturers ECU's one of these days you will find others available on the sort of grey market that you will be able to adjust to tune the motor cycle any which way you want. Of course the Authorities are going to object just like they will if they find out you are removing your cat and I guess emmisions testing will soon be the norm until we get to zero emmisions status and we will be expected to ride public transport powered by fuel injected sewrage, But for the tune up enthusiast you will still be allowed to tune up your bicycles.


You know, I have a nephew who, many years ago, was a mechanic for an amateur Moto-GP team, and what he did was tune the fuel injection fueling profiles for their team's motorcycle, using a computer, to optimize them for the particular track. I'm pretty sure this was still back in the era where most if not all production motorcycles had carburetors. So that means that they must have been putting some sort of fuel injection on their race bike.


It's a wonder that somebody isn't offering something like that today....but maybe Euro 5 or Euro 6 might cause such a thing to hit the market.

[Megadan]

The Honda Navi comes with a carb. Just as a fun side note. A brand new Japanese bike with a carb. As long as they can meet the emissions requirements, it really doesn't matter what it uses. I would also think there are engine size exemptions as well, considering how small the Navi is. That is just a guess though.

[bogieboy]

The Honda Navi comes with a carb. Just as a fun side note. A brand new Japanese bike with a carb. As long as they can meet the emissions requirements, it really doesn't matter what it uses. I would also think there are engine size exemptions as well, considering how small the Navi is. That is just a guess though.

From my understanding there are displacement guidelines, and there are HP guidelines... hence how 200cc sub 20hp bikes can get away with not having efi...

[tpelle]

From my understanding there are displacement guidelines, and there are HP guidelines... hence how 200cc sub 20hp bikes can get away with not having efi...


You know? That's kind of what I assumed the case to be. How much can a small displacement engine be polluting vs. a 400 hp V8 performance car?


Besides, I don't see things like lawnmowers, or lawn tractors, or chain saws, or weedeaters being regulated. I mean how could they regulate a 2-cycle weedeater motor? To put EFI on it, you would have to start with a battery to run the fuel pump to provide sufficient fuel pressure to atomize the fuel coming out of the injector nozzle, as well as to power the ECU computer. Probably have to strap on a backpack just to carry the necessary battery.


Of course you could just control your weeds with Roundup! Oh, wait, that won't work - Roundup causes cancer, too!


Sometimes It just don't pay to be a regulator, I guess.