ABS on the RX4 .... use both brakes or else !

[Bob Kelly]

yesterday I tested my ABS system on the RX4.....
using only the rear brake I locked up the back tire .... it chirped for a split second and then was free wheeling I had to release the rear brake peddle and apply again before the bike tried to stop again.
WTF that is the stupidest thing I have ever seen !!!!!
granted I did not apply the front brake at all , and I have been told that would have made the outcome much different.
but being an old man and have been riding for 50+ years with hardly ever using the front brake I have to say my confidence in the RX4 has reached a new low Yes I have been practicing using the front brake alot after watching many videos on youtube about trail braking.... but to be forced to use both brakes just to make the ABS system work is Ludacris !
.....
I asked CSC about this and it's been 3 days and I have not heard back from them yet... I suppose it is the first time they have encountered this issue.... but what a big issue it is ! if you happen to lock up the rear wheel
all of a sudden no brakes from the rear wheel at all.... that can get you killed real quickly !
I have been told by a fella that because I used only one brake ( the rear)
it caused the problem.... he suggested that I apply both brakes next time I test it and see what it does.... and I have to agree my Misuse of the brakes
may well have caused the issue... they were designed to be both used and they should modulate the brakes to both wheels to stop you faster than you could by yourself......
But I haven't got the muscle memory down yet to Use both brakes !
and many times I simply just use the rear brake alone
and what I discovered is if you do that and lock up the rear wheel all stopping from the rear wheel goes away and it just starts free wheeling
you have to let up off the brake and re apply to get your brakes back
....that has to be the stupidest innovation to any motorcycle that I have ever seen.... you use both brakes or you stand the chance of loosing the one you are using..... how in gods name can you manufacture a bike like that in good conscious ? it's going to get someone killed for sure !
.....
so I am left with 2 options disable the ABS entirely, or use both brakes at the same time all the time...... and never forget !
.....
Bob.....

[Boatguy]

If that’s the way it really works, that’s not going to be any fun once you get off the road and go down a steep hill with rocks or loose dirt. How the heck is that supposed to work?

Definitely happy to have my simple little Chinese bike with no electronic systems like that.

There are always raging debates about these control systems on other forums. Some people really love this stuff. I just can’t understand it on my end.

But, you should have always been using two brakes all along. I’m not sure why are you are just using one. That’s not the right technique. Even if you have been riding forever. You can vary the amount of each one, but you should really be engaging both to slow the bike down better.

[Bob Kelly]

Well i know from experience that using just the rear brake on my 2021 RX4
that is how it works.... the brakes work fine till the rear wheel brakes traction then it stops braking completely !
....
if your not riding really fast you can go through life not using any brakes at all
if you ride at a reasonable speed all you need is the rear brake
if your hauling ass then yah you probably need both brakes to stop in time.
sense I lived till I was 17 yrs on a ranch with a 2 mile dirt road as a driveway,I learned the hard way not to touch that front brake, and that habit is very hard to kill.....
shut off the throttle and apply the rear brake is all you need to do in most cases.... but if a deer hops out in front of you you need that front brake the rear alone isn't good enough.
don't get me wrong I do use the front brake on occasion, but not every time I use the rear brake..... just old habits I suppose....
so this ABS system on the RX4 can be detrimental to me and others like me if they should lock up the rear wheel inadvertently.... because when they do the rear brake stops working almost immediately and its free wheeling
....
I have not tested it using both brakes at the same time...i'm working up to that ! LOL
I am very used to keeping the bike upright if the back wheel is locked up and sliding I have practiced that long and hard and am proud to say I can stop my bikes very fast indeed fast enough to be careful not to do that in traffic !..... that is why I got the bike with ABS in the first place ! I have read where it can stop you faster than humanly possable and that is a good thing
but ONLY if you use it as it was designed ! no one ever said that !
what I discovered was the rear brake stops working the instant it starts skidding...... and that isn't the same thing at all, it's much, much worse !
......
However it may well stop me faster than I could if I used both brakes at the same time.... in fact I think it would ( i don't know I haven't tested that yet)
....
but there are thousands of Old guys like me that even took the front brake off their bikes in the old days to save weight they didn't use the front brake anyway it was a hazard at best.
....these guys will get a new bike with ABS and run into the car ahead of them one day because they only used the rear brake.... you don't think anyone would do that to a motorcycle and no one has ever mentioned it.
but I guarantee you that is going to cause many guys to get hurt just because they used only one brake ! not both.
....
yah the answer is to use both brakes but some times you don't have your fingers on that brake lever so your brake system is only going to function properly till the tire skids..... and then you have to re apply the brake, well, by then your a hood ornament !
....
new bike means a new way of riding...but it is extremely hard to brake old habits ! ( no pun intended)
....
this also means if you are a avid guy about using both brakes all the time
and shit hits the fan and you have to stop real fast and you don't use both brakes your S.O.L. as the bike will stop stopping as soon as it brakes traction
this is not a good thing guys this is a bad thing ! you won't be stopping you'll be crashing.
.....
I think I will remove the ABS system completely off my bike simply because I cannot be trusted to use both brakes every single time... i forget....I'm not a robot !
heck just learning to use the front brake on my ninja 250R has been an up hill battle but it corners so much better when I do !
.....
I'll wait till after I test the ABS one more time before I take it off or pull it's fuze...... but right now I am completely disillusioned... HAHAHHAH!
.....

Bob........

[pyoungbl]

Bob, I understand the idea of not using the front brake on a loose surface. With that said, your aversion to using the front brake is going to cause you problems in the long run. Fully 80% of the braking force on a motorcycle is with the front brake. As you clamp down on the brakes the weight of the bike shifts fwd, thus taking weight off the rear wheel and putting more on the front. That's why you can lock up the rear so easily, little to no weight on the rear. The ABS system is there more to stop you from locking up the rear rather than to limit the front brake.

Like you, I have decades of motorcycle riding experience...since about 1964. I use the front brake almost exclusively, but I'm almost always on pavement. When I do get into dirt I have to force myself to take my fingers off the front brake lever and concentrate on using the rear for most of my braking. Old dogs, new tricks.

[Bob Kelly]

well I don't think I'll have problems in the long run from not using the front brake most of the time I don't use it because I don't need that stopping power...but it's there if I do need it and I do know how to use it
......but this ABS system on my new bike is forcing me to use the front brake all the time... at every stop called for or not ...and that irks me ! because if I don't use it and get into the habit of doing that every time, the time I do need to stop on a dime and brake traction it's all over I'll just roll right into what ever it is.... and I had not planned on that aspect of the ABS brakes at all.
.... Yes I know all the reasons your supposed to use the 2 brakes on a bike all the time ...but I can't trust myself to remember to do it 100% of the time
I get out there and enjoying the ride and thinking about the cows in the field
and then one hops out in front of me I don't know if I'll remember to use both brakes or not... I better..... or my brakes won't work (at least after the first screech... by then it's too late ! can you see what a screw up the ABS brakes are ?.... they may well be the best thing sense sliced bread but if there is one chink in their armor its having to use both brakes and if you don't the brake your using goes away.
.... that's worse than selling a bike with no brakes at all ! so they give you brakes that work like normal till you lock one up and then it only locks up for a split second and then it's free wheeling....AURGH !!!!
if I had a dime for every time I've locked up just the rear wheel alone and feathered it i'ed be a rich man ! but this system takes away that advantage
and I wouldn't mind that at all if it took over and stopped me as fast as possible but it doesn't it turns the wheel loose ! how stupid can you get ?
..... OBVIOUSLY that is not the whole story, with the front brake applied as well I expect it to work as stated and monitor the wheels so they don't brake traction.....And when riding in snow that has got to be an advantage, but are you going to be using your front brake when driving in snow ???? I'm not ! if you do, you'll only do it once !
.... i dunno guys I guess I have alot to learn and re learn....
.....
a fella told me something to the effect of... so you come around a blind corner and see something you have to stop for and your going way too fast, you simply grab both brakes to the max and let the bike decide what is the best way to stop...... and it works.... he loves his ABS !
..... I don't have that kind of faith yet ! LOL
.....I am now wondering how much front brake is needed to get the ABS system to function properly is there a fine line where it will work or not work
I would guess that even just a little front brake is all it would take
.... I'll find out for sure.... because stopping fast on a bike is a major priority to me...... you don't always need it but when you do it's irreplaceable.

Bob.......

[Boatguy]

I do NOT envy your situation here.

There are plenty of times when rear brake is all you need. Slippery times. Rocky, steep downhill runs. An emergency situation with sand all over the road. I guess snow. Anything too slippery to be using the front brake.

I still don’t understand how this bike is supposed to go down a very steep hill with loose rocks in dirt if you can’t use only the rear brake.

Now, are you definitely sure it wasn’t doing the proper ABS thing and letting the back wheel roll at the point just before lockup? I know in the snow ABS often feels like no brakes at all in cars. It’ll roll that wheel at the point just before lockup across snow/ice and because the friction is so low, it feels basically like your brakes failed.

Also, is it possible this ABS is wrong? Like that the logic is incorrect in the computer? If it does what you’re saying it seems like it’s wrong.

Finally, does this bike have a “dirt mode” or other mode where these electronics are turned off?

[pyoungbl]

On the RX4 the ABS can be disabled. My 2020 had a switch (installed by CSC) that disabled the ABS. Doing so also disabled the speedo, I guess that was to remind the rider that ABS was not going to function. I'm sure the 2021 has the same feature but I decided to not migrate that over from my 2020 to the 2021. As I understand it, you can also disable the ABS by some combination of ignition key strokes or something similar but you have to go through the drill every time you want to turn it off. A call to CSC clear that up.

I can recall a few conversations where a rider said that he got into a situation where he had to 'lay the bike down'. Invariably more questions pointed out that the rider stomped on the rear brake, the rear locked up, the ass end came around and the rider crashed. Never an intentional move to put the bike on the ground as a defensive move.

[Bob Kelly]

Joey at CSC was kind enough to send me a copy of his notes on installing the ABS switch about a month before they got them back in stock....
but I still have many questions.... are the wheels independent of each other in the ABS system ? can you disable the rear and have the front work like it is supposed to >
.... it would seem to me that the ABS is linked to each other and that is why hitting the rear brake alone made it release the back brake after it broke traction....
So if that's the case ... disabling the rear wheel ABS may well stop the front ABS from working a test you could do is find a flat smooth dirt road and lock up the front wheel and see if it modulates like it should I bet you dollars to donuts that it will lock up for a split second and then be released completely.
..... if that's the case disabling BOTH wheels is the only reasonable answer
.... I want my ABS system to work but if it depends on weather I use both brakes or just one that is totally broken to me ! because I may use one brake and I may use both ...it depends on the situation.
.....
I did all kinds of looking up info on ABS systems last night and it looks like for the most part that the wheels on a motorcycle are independent
However if they are then My ABS is defective from the get go....( not good)
but there are so many different types out there it could be just about anything. both wheels are supposed to sense loosing traction and release the brakes if it does... that is the function of the ABS system and then re apply that braking force in a few milliseconds ....mine never re applied that force it just released the back brake and left it at that... so now I am think it's not so much pilot error but a defective part and that would explain the horrendlsy stupid way it's working....it's broken !
.....
if that is the case I have full confidence that CSC will make it right...
but I have to talk to them on the phone and I hate that as I am hard of hearing....
.....
I'll let ya know what happens.
.....
Bob.....

[tknj99]

I remember when I first got the RX4 onto a gravel road and soon after approaching a stop sign at a face pace, when I applied the rear brake the ABS took effect and started slowing me down but not nearly at the rate I expected and instead of stopping at the intersection I wind up half way thru it.. not good.. well I quickly learned that limitation and rode differently after that.. it definitely made me question taking a steep dirt downhill with any reassurance.. but no worries these days with either the Brozz or the Titan.. sometimes low tech can be a great thing

[Bob Kelly]

Ok I just got a call from Joey at CSC motorcycles I was surprised to hear that he said he tried to call me yesterday but no answer.... ( well I hardly ever hear that stupid phone!)
anyway we chatted about 30 minutes and I explained in detail what happened
and he said Yah it sounds like it's working like it should it's just your not used to it !
he said he took the RX4 out and tested the ABS system extensively and at first he thought it didn't work either but it was ! both of the wheels are independant in ABS so the front does not care what the back is doing and it's a fast system and it will modulate so fast you cannot feel it which gives the impression that it is not working at all but you are slowing down as fast as you can when it is working....
....
I Must test it again ( this time on a dirt road ) and see if it is actually slowing me down like he says.
hearing him explain what it feels like kind'a sounds like what I felt..... when it kicks in it lets up alot... it has to to keep the wheel from loosing traction again.
....
something tells me I can stop faster than the ABS system then ! LOL
....
but be that as it may he did calm my fears and prompt me to test it several times and get used to how it feels.... and he's right there I am sure....
...so it's testing time
...
but the information I got from another guy was totally wrong you do NOT need to use both brakes to make it work use which ever one you want as they are totally independent ! ( that is how they should be )....
...
being gullible has always been a weakness of mine ....Sigh !
....
Anyway, it sounds like the ABS system is working fine.... it's just I am not used to how it feels yet when it is in operation....
.....
now weather I can stop faster than the ABS is a whole nother question....
because it felt like it released a whole lot of pressure to get the tire to turn.... and I can't see that stopping me faster in the long run ! that is hard on tires though ! LOL
.....
just so you know....
....
Bob........

[Bob Kelly]

I remember when I first got the RX4 onto a gravel road and soon after approaching a stop sign at a face pace, when I applied the rear brake the ABS took effect and started slowing me down but not nearly at the rate I expected and instead of stopping at the intersection I wind up half way thru it.. not good.. well I quickly learned that limitation and rode differently after that.. it definitely made me question taking a steep dirt downhill with any reassurance.. but no worries these days with either the Brozz or the Titan.. sometimes low tech can be a great thing

YES indeed I think that is what I will find as well ....i think it releases too much pressure .....
what good is the ABS system if you can stop faster by hand eh ? I think that is what we will find with the RX4 !
.....
time will tell with more testing !
....
Bob....

[Boatguy]

On the RX4 the ABS can be disabled. My 2020 had a switch (installed by CSC) that disabled the ABS. Doing so also disabled the speedo, I guess that was to remind the rider that ABS was not going to function. I'm sure the 2021 has the same feature but I decided to not migrate that over from my 2020 to the 2021. As I understand it, you can also disable the ABS by some combination of ignition key strokes or something similar but you have to go through the drill every time you want to turn it off. A call to CSC clear that up.

I can recall a few conversations where a rider said that he got into a situation where he had to 'lay the bike down'. Invariably more questions pointed out that the rider stomped on the rear brake, the rear locked up, the ass end came around and the rider crashed. Never an intentional move to put the bike on the ground as a defensive move.


Just a small addition to your post. The reason that the speedometer goes away when you disable ABS is that ABS uses a wheel speed sensor. When you disable that sensor, you disable the wheel speed input to the bike. So it doesn’t know how fast it’s going to display the speed info for you.

Unfortunately, they both use the same sensor. It’s like that on most bikes.

[Bob Kelly]

I do NOT envy your situation here.

There are plenty of times when rear brake is all you need. Slippery times. Rocky, steep downhill runs. An emergency situation with sand all over the road. I guess snow. Anything too slippery to be using the front brake.

I still don’t understand how this bike is supposed to go down a very steep hill with loose rocks in dirt if you can’t use only the rear brake.

Now, are you definitely sure it wasn’t doing the proper ABS thing and letting the back wheel roll at the point just before lockup? I know in the snow ABS often feels like no brakes at all in cars. It’ll roll that wheel at the point just before lockup across snow/ice and because the friction is so low, it feels basically like your brakes failed.

Also, is it possible this ABS is wrong? Like that the logic is incorrect in the computer? If it does what you’re saying it seems like it’s wrong.

Finally, does this bike have a “dirt mode” or other mode where these electronics are turned off?

Well absolutely certain ? no.... I did it once and it felt like there was no brakes afterword to me.... but that may well be WRONG it seems that when the ABS is active it reduces the braking force on the rear wheel intentionally
so it FEELS like there is no brakes but they are still working (from Joey at CSC).... he said it surprised him as well but they actually do work....
so your not going to go Rrrrt , Rrrrrt , Rrrrt till you stop I thought that is what it should do...it didn't it reduced the pressure enough to stop the rear wheel from sliding..... and it did that very well........ I would have ran the stop sign though if I hadn't gotten the front brake and re applied the rear brake because the braking force was very little indeed ! .....it's like they over compensated ! LOL
....
I asked Joey if he new of a way to modify the ABS unit to apply more force to the rear wheel when the ABS is active ....
.....
....
Yah that idea is great on the pavement but as the other guy said what about down hill dirt.... if the ABS kicks in the braking force will be less and it will be like no brakes at all !
.... if I press hard enough to lock up the brake I want that wheel to stop
not keep going ! the ABS system is designed to reduce that pressure so the rear wheel will not stop turning.... well that means it lets up off the brake then...... how are you going to stop then ?
....both the wheels are independent of one another so locking up the rear
and the front still works like normal, till it skids then it's in the same boat
both reduced to where you cannot stop them from turning.....
that means a 90 mph run down a steep dirt road folks !!!!!
....
I'm looking for ABS Mods any body know of any ???
....
Bob.........

[Bob Kelly]

You know , it's interesting enough to mention when I was talking with Joey from CSC he mentioned that I may well have let up off the rear brake instinkly and that made it feel like it was free wheeling and I think he is right ...too many years of riding and when I feel the tires skidding it's automatic that I let up, i even do that in a car for heavens sake !
and this was the first attempt at skidding a tire on the RX4 ...i am still very cautious with this bike it's still very new to me... i think a test of pounding the rear brake and holding it there is in order .... i have been working under the assumption that the ABS system reduces the pressure on the rear by too much but you know that may not be the case it is possable the I am the wild card in the mix ....
i dunno.... i want to find out though !
.... I just need enough ambition to go and test it and lately I have had no extra ambition at all ! .... and today the temperature turned chilly again with the wind kicking up so
I think I will put off the testing a few days....
no doubt I have to educate myself on the ABS system on this bike. can it actually stop you on a steep down hill dirt road ? the way it looks now ...no it can't but you know that is silly for a bike manufacturer to do that, so the jury is still out !
I think it is very probable that the same pressure you apply is re applied to the brake
once the ABS kicks in and it has a very fast sensor in it so you would not feel the skid so it would let up again ,and again, ..... confusing the heck out of how the system is actually supposed to work ! LOL
.... testing is the only way to find out !
....
later !
Bob......

[Oldenslow]

All I gain from this conversation is -- whole lotta people don't know how to brake. Won't say who, 'cause clearly there's no agreement here...

[Bob Kelly]

All I gain from this conversation is -- whole lotta people don't know how to brake. Won't say who, 'cause clearly there's no agreement here...

Do you have an RX4 with ABS brakes ?
Have you tested it to the Skidding point ? you may well be surprised at the outcome ! it doesn't stop like you think it should at all !
....
Bob.....

[db_moto]

I have a 2020 RX4 with 15,500 miles on it. I can confirm the brakes works as they should. Almost blew through a stop sign on a back road today and it stopped exceptionally well. Also, if you don't like your ABS wire in the disconnect switch.

[Magician16]

Just my opinion, but I would never buy a bike with abs because I know how my mind works in an emergency. Couple weeks ago, I had to apply the brakes on my Bashan in an emergency stop in traffic. I hit the rear brake immediately and the front brake right after and stopped in plenty of time, a lag of maybe 1/4 second. I've used that exact procedure since the 60's, and there's no way I can adjust to apply both at the same time.

[Bob Kelly]

I hear ya on old habits die hard !!!!! but there is not supposed to be a need to hit both brakes at once their independent of each other so you can delay and then hit it if you so desire....the way I understand it ALL bikes with ABS have independent brake systems
so you can mash both brakes or just one and it still works....
the question nagging at me is will it stop as fast as I can stop a bike with normal brakes
...and I seriously doubt that.... but I am not as good at it as I was 20 years ago.
so it might very well stop faster HAHAHAHHA
.....
it's been snowing off and on for the last 3 days.... not good weather for riding yet alone testing brakes ! HA!
....
Bob.......

[pyoungbl]

The RX4 has Bosch ABS. Looking at the Bosch literature available here:https://www.bosch-mobility-solutions.com/en/solutions/driving-safety/antilock-braking-system-2w/ it appears that the system is dual channel. They talk about 'enhanced ABS' for two wheel vehicles and the electronic Combined Brake System. The ABS Control Unit Assembly listed by CSC appears to be identical to the enhanced ABS unit shown on the Bosch site. If that's the case, it does not matter which brake you apply...they are linked. Stomp on the rear brake, the ABS will keep it from locking up while it also applies pressure to the front brakes. I'd still clamp down on the front brake in order to make sure there is enough stopping power in an emergency (on a surface that has grip). ABS can usually stop the machine better than the normal human although some racers can actually beat the ABS results. Me, I'll stick with the ABS and call it a day. You do you and we'll all be happy.

[Boatguy]

The RX4 has Bosch ABS. Looking at the Bosch literature available here:https://www.bosch-mobility-solutions.com/en/solutions/driving-safety/antilock-braking-system-2w/ it appears that the system is dual channel. They talk about 'enhanced ABS' for two wheel vehicles and the electronic Combined Brake System. The ABS Control Unit Assembly listed by CSC appears to be identical to the enhanced ABS unit shown on the Bosch site. If that's the case, it does not matter which brake you apply...they are linked. Stomp on the rear brake, the ABS will keep it from locking up while it also applies pressure to the front brakes. I'd still clamp down on the front brake in order to make sure there is enough stopping power in an emergency (on a surface that has grip). ABS can usually stop the machine better than the normal human although some racers can actually beat the ABS results. Me, I'll stick with the ABS and call it a day. You do you and we'll all be happy.


Whoa!!!

That’s a terrible bit of technology.

So if I am going down a steep, sandy hill or one with a lot of pebbles on it and gravel or maybe snow or something...

The system will apply the front brake when I apply the rear to slow things down a bit???

That’s a guaranteed crash. The front wheel will definitely wash out in a situation like that.

The way to handle that type of terrain would be to not touch the front brake, kind of let the speed build on the way down the hill because you don’t have full ability to brake, use the back brake a bit, maybe locking it up and slipping it over the rocks/sand, maybe having ABS work on the rear also if you’re inclined.

But for the ABS to start applying any braking pressure to the front wheel in that situation while you are trying to steer down a slippery surface with rocks sticking out everywhere would be a guaranteed crash.

I am so glad I don’t have any of the stuff on my bike.

[pyoungbl]

Whoa!!!

That’s a terrible bit of technology.

So if I am going down a steep, sandy hill or one with a lot of pebbles on it and gravel or maybe snow or something...

The system will apply the front brake when I apply the rear to slow things down a bit???

That’s a guaranteed crash. The front wheel will definitely wash out in a situation like that.

The way to handle that type of terrain would be to not touch the front brake, kind of let the speed build on the way down the hill because you don’t have full ability to brake, use the back brake a bit, maybe locking it up and slipping it over the rocks/sand, maybe having ABS work on the rear also if you’re inclined.

But for the ABS to start applying any braking pressure to the front wheel in that situation while you are trying to steer down a slippery surface with rocks sticking out everywhere would be a guaranteed crash.

I am so glad I don’t have any of the stuff on my bike.

And that's why you have the ability to turn the ABS off as needed. ABS is required in Europe so that filters down to other markets.

[Boatguy]

And that's why you have the ability to turn the ABS off as needed. ABS is required in Europe so that filters down to other markets.



Very important feature I’d say.

[Bob Kelly]

thanks pyoungbl !
that is a useful bit of info there .....
so when I press on the rear brake hard enough to brake traction it will kick in the ABS and that will transfer some of the braking force to the front wheel as well .... which means that pressure on the rear foot peddle just got lighter so I have to press harder on the rear to get the same force I had..... that is probably why it felt like it just let go completely.... i wasn't using the front brake at all and it took alot of that pressure to activate the front brake..... NOW THAT Makes Sense ! that explains it ! THANK YOU !
enhanced braking indeed ! LOL so if your using only the rear brake and not the front
you may experience exactly what I did I let up a little off the rear soon as it skidded I am sure as it's built into me ...2nd nature and because all of a sudden the braking force went to BOTH wheels and I let up slightly it was like free wheeling .... makes perfect sense to me now... next time I will push down on the rear brake till it skids and push even harder and see what it does I bet it stops real fast !...without skidding any more !
LOL
really helps to understand the beast you are dealing with that is for sure !
THANK YOU !
Bob......



.....

[Bob Kelly]

Whoa!!!

That’s a terrible bit of technology.

So if I am going down a steep, sandy hill or one with a lot of pebbles on it and gravel or maybe snow or something...

The system will apply the front brake when I apply the rear to slow things down a bit???

That’s a guaranteed crash. The front wheel will definitely wash out in a situation like that.

The way to handle that type of terrain would be to not touch the front brake, kind of let the speed build on the way down the hill because you don’t have full ability to brake, use the back brake a bit, maybe locking it up and slipping it over the rocks/sand, maybe having ABS work on the rear also if you’re inclined.

But for the ABS to start applying any braking pressure to the front wheel in that situation while you are trying to steer down a slippery surface with rocks sticking out everywhere would be a guaranteed crash.

I am so glad I don’t have any of the stuff on my bike.

Well, not so bad as you may think.... if the front wheel starts to loose traction it will ease up on the brakes for you.....
so your not going to get a washout that way.... no brakes at all maybe depending on if any traction is available or not i guess ! LOL
.... but yah I've had my bike in places where there was hardly any traction at all with positive brakes and sliding both down hill .... but I was Hill climbing at the time and I don't think the RX4 would be very good at that in stock form ,remove 200lbs of weight Yah it would be great, there is plenty of power for that then !

the RX4's INTENDED use is obviously a street bike with a few dirt roads thrown in to boot..... it's not a enduro or desert racer...the saddle bags on it should kind'a tell you that from the start.... so if your going to put the RX4 through stuff like that you gott'a expect some problems !
I have no complaints about My RX4 except it's super hard ride which I am fixing... it was too tall for me so I lowered it 2" now I can touch both feet flat footed on the bike.... but it is heavy much heavier than I like but for the street that isn't bad...I do not like being blown off the road by an 18 wheeler
and I have been before ! a little weight curbs alot of that problem !
it's a great bike for it's intended use if you take it out and do desert racing with it your going to be really disappointed even single track trails is asking alot from the RX4 but it can probably take you anywhere your stupid enough to take it .... and I have been known to do some crazy things on a bike....but not on this bike.... I treat it like a street bike and I've had no problems
but I have taken street bikes up Logging roads for many miles to the point the road disappears..... places where most would only go on dirt bikes but I do that with street bikes.... but that is all I want and this bike fills the bill
....
Bob......

[Boatguy]

Well, that’s true. It’s not for that kind of off road use. You’re right. As often is the case on forums in general, we all tend to think of our own bikes when responding. I suppose the abs system, as described, is fine for what it’s intended for.

But I still think you’d wash out in my scenario if the abs, as described, was active. My situation puts you on the border of a washout to begin with. You might just wash out on a non-abs bike without touching the front brake at all. The front tire is riding over marbles on the steep downhill basically. That tiny little touch of the front brake by the computer would be plenty to start the full wash out.

But I guess it’s a pointless thought because you’re not taking this bike into this situation I dreamed up anyway.

[Bob Kelly]

Well, Yes and no... you have a system designed to stop the wheels from braking loose and washing out even with sand or pebbles that is what it does best it keeps traction to the wheels....I don't think you;ed get a wash out but an increasing need for more and more brake pressure.... up to the point they both finally lock up.... I think !
....
I have been posting that they are both independent and that appears to not be the case as they are both linked ...that certainly changes things !
it may well be that the other day when I did test the ABS on my bike it did exactly what it was supposed to and I would have stopped in the same distance because I wasn't using the front brake at all.... it did for me... I guess and if that be the case I know I'ed have stopped fairly fast
but the strange reaction I got from the bike made me want to let up and hit the brake again... which it immediately re set and i had rear brake again by then I was almost to a crawl anyway so I just continued on...
it will take some guts to do but I want to try stabbing the front brake and get it to brake loose and see what it does.... i'll do that on a dirt road as the pavement is fairly hard on things should they go wrong !
although the dirt roads around here are packed so hard they just as well be painted black and you'd never know the difference ! LOL the pee gravel is the only give away and the dust you kick up.... if you've ever gone down on a hard packed dirt road you'll know that is not where you want to be falling down ! the rocks sticking up will rip you to pieces ! ...i'd rather go down on the pavement than on that stuff !
so I'll have to find an old logging road somewhere .... I know just the place if the winter rains have settled the dust enough... the road is a fire brake but last year they had a forest fire out there and the trucks tore the heck out of the road... I couldn't even go up it with the TT250 it was so loose and messed up..... this volcanic soil turns to powder fairly easily once you brake it open
I went up that same road with a Yamaha 650 street bike the year before it was a hard ride but I did make it to the cinder pit....
that might be just the road to test these brakes on ! ...one part of it is really steep with big rocks that only jeeps go up i made it on the 650 twin so I am sure this RX4 can do it ! they both weigh about the same LOL...but the Yamaha was a bit lower !
a lower bike is SO MUCH easier to ride in the rough !
...
later !
Bob......

[Bob Kelly]

well, after the spring boon doogle I put my RX4 back together and left the saddle bags and top box off
because I want to ride it a few times like that...just for kicks !
I let some of the pressure out of the rear shock while I had it out and now When I bounce on the seat it deflects a tiny bit.... the triumph goes down about 3 " the 250R Ninja goes down about the same but the RX4 only goes down about 1"~2" max ...so it's still very hard but better than it was !
....
it does feel a little lighter i have to admit !without the saddle bags and rear crash bars... LOL
....
Bob...

[Bob Kelly]

OK I took the RX4 out today and found a short patch of gravel so I tested the ABS again
this time the results were completely different than last time...
I hit the rear brake only and noted my stopping speed at the time... hard enough to lock up the rear but of course it only stopped sliding for a split second and it did continue to slow down at the same rate !!!!! a few more tests like that confirmed the same results
it does not let up so much that it freewheels...that was ME letting up I'm almost positive !
..... the other thing I tested today was the ride without the saddle bags and as I expected it is alot Lighter and the center of mass up high is alot less than it was
that bike does indeed have a high center of mass and I guess that is because of the full gas tank of 5+gallons... which is quite high on the bike right now without the saddle bags on it it feels like the COG is about between the bottom of the gas tank and the cylinder head ....at a guess with the saddle bags on and the 30lbs of stuff I always carry with me it's almost certainly at the bottom of the gas tank..... that's pirty High !
.....
the ride..... the ride was disapointing at best ... it still rides like a truck but it is indeed a little softer not much just a little bit !..... it will still try to knock my teeth out on a few bumps on that road but it is a little better ! so I will try to find a spring for it again.
.....
it didn't run very good at first but soon cleared out and was it's plesant self....
it felt like the choke was left on.... but obviously no choke with the fuel injection
...it's still running so lean at idle it misses everyonce in a while.... I have resigned myself to that is the way it's going to run...I don't like that but I can't do anything about it ! maybe a resister after the air temp sensor or something, but nothing concrete as of yet.
......
so ABS works great, Ride sucks, and seat height is still a bit too tall for me
I can touch flat footed with both feet at a stop, but just barely...another inch lower would be perfect !
.....
at 70mph it is tacking at 5,500 RPM..... and feels a bit buzzy at that speed steeper final drive would really be nice on that bike !
.....
I went down to the lake here and there is no water, it has receded to way down there !
we are at end of summer low-ness at the beginning of summer...... not a good thing at all !!!!!

....
Bob......

[Bob Kelly]

OK ABS on the RX4..... what do I know about it NOW ?
.... it does work as they intended it to....
.... both wheels are linked together so the rear will activate the front brake if needed
.... the wheels are independant in the fact that you can use either without affecting the
other wheel up to the point of skidding at that point both wheels are affected.
.... the bike does indeed stop very fast by itself and I will be hard pressed to beat it on a
good day ! so I'm definitely not taking the ABS system OFF ! LOL
.... I think installing a ABS switch for the dirt would be a good thing as there are times
when you want to lock either wheel up and keep it locked up and the ABS system
prevents that... and that is not what I want. so a switch is in the works !
...........
This has definately been a learning experience... Me jumping to conclusions and not knowing how they actually work definately screws a person up ! For That I appoligise to everyone here.... I should have had concrete evedence and not guess work, and more knowledge on how the system really works than "what I was told" years ago....
I've wanted ABS on a bike sense they first came out because I thought "that will put an END to front end wash-outs !" now that I own one I'm not so sure that is the case at all...... if your tearing around a corner and not using your brakes and hit pee-gravel or sand the ABS brakes are not going to help with that unless if you hit your brakes and that act causes it to brake traction then the ABS will kick in and intervene for you...
... most likely your going down anyway as the traction is not available for that speed.
the ABS can't help with stupidity ! LOL
but it can help with miss applied brake pressure in fact it excells at that !
hit the rear brake too hard and the rear wheel brakes traction it will then apply some braking force to the front wheel and keep you slowing down at the same rate you were slowing down before you broke traction..... THAT IS PIRTY DARN SLICK !!!!
but Old riders need to be aware of that fact so they don't defeet the ABS when braking
you need to put away your skills and just pound the brakes and let the bike stop itself
and that is not so easy to do sometimes !
....
My first test of the ABS system was a failure because I defeated the ABS System
I used my skills to keep the rear from braking loose and all braking went askew !
you have to brake like a idiot and then the system works great !
....
Bob....

[Bob Kelly]

Today I put the saddle bags back on the RX4 and it took some doing.... the right bracket is sprung to the point the bolt holes don't line up I had to spread the bracket apart and put in the bolt at the same time.... I did that by using a 1.5"x 1/8" bar stock about 4' long and wedged it against the tire and that bracket that bolts under the rear fender....
holding both saddle bags up and aliging the bracket with the bar and putting the bolt in with some blue lock tight on it took some doing....but getting the other bolt in just 2" away from that one went right in LOL ! I put blue locktight on every bolt I put back in there because those saddle bags probably will never come off again in my care !
....
I think I discovered something ...not sure but I think the Fuel injection system really wants to warm up first before you use it .... not like a car you can start the honda CRV out there and drive away imediately...but I think this bike almost demands to be warmed up at least a little bit because it acts like it loads up like you left the choke on if you try to use it...move it under power or something soon as it's warm it clears right up
so I'll try letting it warm up a minute or so maybe 2 minutes max and then try it and see if it still does that .... who knows it might be the fuel i filled the tank 3 months ago
and it's still full ....hehehehe been too cold to ride !
but today got to 70 deg ! WOOO HOOO ! we'll see if that lasts ! LOL
....
By the way are all you guys burning regular in the RX4 ? that's what I put in it for the first fillup and it's still a full tank 120 miles later ! LOL..... but hopefully those miles will change soon and get the girl broke in !
....

Bob......

[Working_ZS]

... I think I discovered something ...not sure but I think the Fuel injection system really wants to warm up first before you use it .... not like a car you can start the honda CRV out there and drive away imediately...but I think this bike almost demands to be warmed up at least a little bit because it acts like it loads up like you left the choke on if you try to use it...move it under power or something soon as it's warm it clears right up
so I'll try letting it warm up a minute or so maybe 2 minutes max and then try it and see if it still does that .... who knows it might be the fuel i filled the tank 3 months ago
and it's still full ....hehehehe been too cold to ride !
but today got to 70 deg ! WOOO HOOO ! we'll see if that lasts ! LOL
....
By the way are all you guys burning regular in the RX4 ? that's what I put in it for the first fillup and it's still a full tank 120 miles later ! LOL..... but hopefully those miles will change soon and get the girl broke in !
....

Bob......

My 2020 RX4 always wants to stall at initial takeoff, no matter how long I let it warm up. In fact, I usually don't even have to put it into gear - just try to twist the throttle while in neutral and it stalls. It always starts back up, but it is a little irritating. Fuel injection map is definitely too lean, courtesy of the EPA, no way around it.

For fuel, I just use non-ethanol regular, with a squirt of Lucas Upper Cylinder Lubricant and Fuel Injection Cleaner.

[Bob Kelly]

I've got a full tank of last falls gas...regular...we don't have non ethanol here...
but I did dump some Sta-bul in the gas before I parked it for the winter
.... I am wondering though I know that CSC says it'll burn regular... but I wonder if that leanness at idle will go away if a higher octane gas is used
I saw a post somewhere, where the guy was running regular which was 86 octane and his manual said run 87 or better so he put a full tank of 88 octane in the bike and he could not believe how much better it ran the periodic miss at idle went away as well as the hesitation on throttle up.....
it's possible that all my complaints could be cured just by changing the gas I put in it.... manufacturers have no control of the gas changes that are put into effect and the bike is made years before you get it...so it is possible that a better grade of gas would make it run better....
either that or change the timing perhaps !
.....
I had a pontiac Bonneville brohm years ago with a huge engine in it... and the previous owner always ran premium in it I put regular in it and barely made it home ! ..it was pinging so bad and rattling loudly on acceleration !...
I simply retarded the timing a little till it smoothed out and had no problems with it ever again....and I ran regular in it for years !
.... ( probably saved a couple thousand in gas because of that ...premium is expensive!)
...
I'll get that spring on the RX4 and worry about the gas later ! HA !
Bob......

[Bob Kelly]

the RX4 has a 11:1 compression ratio and if I remember correctly 10:1 is the upper limit to regular gas... but they have fiddled around with the gasoline formulas so much it's really hard to say what the limit for regular is
but through my life I have found with bikes and cars and trucks that if you want to burn regular you just have to change the timing a bit is all....
but it is really hard to say if there is any timing adjustment on the RX4 their manual never mentions it and even though their trouble shooting section says check the timing there is no way to check it.... no instructions on where the timing marks are or what plugs you must pull to see the mark or weather you time it with a timing light or a trouble light or where to adjust the timing.... If I knew that the timing was adjustable or not I would probably already have changed it ...if you can't change the fuel ratio you can change the timing to find the place it runs the best at....
.... I'll never forget timing our ford pinto if I put the timing where the Motors manual said it ran like doo doo.... if I advanced it 10 degrees it ran fantastically....
upon invistigation because of that problem I found the centrifugal spark advance was frozen.... so I fixed that and the vacuum advance which was iffy at best....
I fixed all the problems and it still ran better 10 degrees advanced ! it was weird !
that was about the time I discovered that you could set the timing by the vacuum gauge
(you set the timing for maximum vacuum) ... so just for kicks I tried that and it was best about 8 degrees advanced I had no problems with the running of the car it ran fine for many years till we simply wore it out !
then we got a fuel injected pickup truck (toyota R22) and that vehicle changed my mind on F.I. vehicles ! I never had to tear into the carbs on that little truck ! LOL
and it worked for decades ! never had a bit of trouble with that engine ! changing the timing belt was a pain but that was maintenance !
.....
anyway I'm Rambling on.... so if anyone has played with adjusting the timing on a RX4
I'ed like to hear about it..... I assume you need to use the marks for the valve timing on the lower left of the side case by the magneto... but where is the sending unit and can it be changed any or is it just a put it on, and forget it ?
.....
Bob.....

[Working_ZS]

...
anyway I'm Rambling on.... so if anyone has played with adjusting the timing on a RX4
I'ed like to hear about it..... I assume you need to use the marks for the valve timing on the lower left of the side case by the magneto... but where is the sending unit and can it be changed any or is it just a put it on, and forget it ?
.....
Bob.....

Unfortunately, since the RX4 is fuel injected, there is no way to change the ignition timing, short of flashing a new map into the ECU.

[Bob Kelly]

To me that statement says the sending unit for the ignition is mounted in such a way that it cannot be changed.... the CPU does all the dirty work of spark advance or retarding
so the sending unit just sends a signal to the cpu at a certain crank position....
this is all well and good because the cpu calculates what the exact timing should be
.... so the only way to change that would be to move the unmovable sending unit a tiny amount....so it would send it's signal a little bit sooner or later to the CPU the CPU will still preform the same calculations on the signal and fire the sparkplug at a slightly different time, the end results would be a change in the ignition timing....
Yes it's probably easier by far to just re flash the CPU but not all people know how to do that or have the equipment to preform such a task.... so they might like me consider the task of moving the sending unit a tiny amount ! mechanical changes to me are far easier for me to understand than soft ware programs that you have to learn and need to know really good before you make changes to the program inside your CPU
i.e. it's easier for me to drill and tap a hole for repositioning a sending unit than to spend 6 months trying to gather the e-prom burner and software needed and all that !
..... the problem is it's not the timing that is the major problem with the RX4 it's the fuel
they told the CPU to be way too lean so they would get past the EPA standards ...
.... something as simple as replacing the injector nozzle with a slightly bigger one may be all that is needed without touching the programming of the CPU !!!!
but where to get one is completely unknown at this time ! but to me that has great merit.... because the CPU controlling the injector turns the injector on and off at a certain duration each time and that of course varies with engine RPM....
the fuel pressure is a constant pressure ( if the fuel filter is clean) (if it's restricted it would run leaner than normal...like your bike eh ?) but... if we swapped out the injector for a slightly bigger one it would be like changing the main jet on a carbureted bike...
nothing else would change... because of the size difference more fuel would be added each pulse... and no more lean ... at least that is the idea...
....
Bob.......

[Bob Kelly]

I had a funny thought.... has anyone tried to take apart the injector on the RX4 ?
.....Probably not as most injectors are sealed units now days you can't take them apart and clean them ( you used to be able to do that !...at least on diesels!)
perhaps you could enlarge the hole in the tip of the injector....
if you were REAL CAREFUL eh ? it's a thought !
yah, I know it's like taking a hammer to a grandfather clock to fix it ! but extraordinary things have been accomplished by guys in their garage !
....makes a person wonder !
....can't no more than have to buy a new injector !
Bob......

[pyoungbl]

Drilling out the injector or installing a larger one, will not solve your problem.
Don't forget that the O2 sensor will signal to the ECU that the exhaust gas is running richer...and then the ECU will trim back on the injector pulse. You will end up at the same spot in terms of fuel mix.

There are a series of magnets around the flywheel, with a gap to indicate where TDC is. The crank position sensor is in a fixed spot on the block and detects the gap so it can tell where TDC is and thus set the correct timing. Changing the CPS location will probably involve splitting the cases and doing some serious machine work. Good luck.

[Lukas]

I don't understand this type of ideas, having a tool like HOD ECU HACKER, where everything can be edited, why change the position of the halotron sensor or injector, that is change hardware, if you have software options, or you can pay 30 euros and get a ready map of the ecu.

[Bob Kelly]

Drilling out the injector or installing a larger one, will not solve your problem.
Don't forget that the O2 sensor will signal to the ECU that the exhaust gas is running richer...and then the ECU will trim back on the injector pulse. You will end up at the same spot in terms of fuel mix.

There are a series of magnets around the flywheel, with a gap to indicate where TDC is. The crank position sensor is in a fixed spot on the block and detects the gap so it can tell where TDC is and thus set the correct timing. Changing the CPS location will probably involve splitting the cases and doing some serious machine work. Good luck.

Ahh ! good point ! that oxygen sensor screws up that idea real bad !
....yah I'm not curious enough to tear down the bike that far ! LOL
.... Lukas has a very good point problem is how do you find that stuff ?
.... got any links ?

.....
Bob......