Why are there no threads about new bikes?

[ChopperCharles]

Barely anything about the KPM200, SG400/Hayalon, or Benelli talked about on here. RX3 and RX4 conversation has dried up. Is this site for every china bike, or just for the cheap hawk clones from amazon?

Charles.

[Sport Rider]

open to anything and everything. I find much of the conversation here about what bike can be bought the cheapest, so I think price drives a lot of conversation.

the SG400 is priced at 4500, so not exactly a price leader. I seem to recall a post or two, but higher price than I'm looking for in a chinese bike. Pretty much the same for the Haylon at 4600. (those prices are before CSC adds on costs too).

I personally think CSC has lost sight of the market they are after. :)

[JerryHawk250]

New bikes coming to the US in April of this year. Moto Morini X-Cape 650 and Seiemmezzo .
The engine is based off the Kawasaki 650 twin. The engine is built by CF Moto. It Looks like the Lifan KPT400 will be delayed till later this year or beginning of next year because of EPA issues. I'm personally liking the X-Cape over the KPT400 now. https://www.motomoriniusa.com/motorcycles

[4T_Goblin]

Looks good

[tknj99]

I think Sport Rider said it best.. most on here are new to China bikes and tip-toeing into it with a minimal budget. At the 2k range price-point, nothing compares,... step into 4k or so and the perceived risk is much higher.. you have little to no dealer support other than via phone/mail and much less of a proven track record.

[JerryHawk250]

The only reason I had join here was because at the time all I could afford was my $1099 Hawk. And I'm still a cheap bastard. :lmao:

[ChopperCharles]

I see it far differently. I see CSC importing bikes that largely fit in a niche that no one else does, and at a reasonable price. There is no other highway capable retro-modern cafe racer out there. You can get retro-oldschool cafe in the Royal Enfield Interceptor 650. You can get retro-modern naked/UJM with the Z650RS or Z900RS. All of those options are thousands of dollars more. And you still won't have something as cool as the SG400.

Same with the RX3 and RX4. Small-bore, capable adventure bikes are a new thing, and CSC pioneered it. Tubeless spoked rims, TFT display, and TPMS on a budget bike they also pioneered.

The thing is... I'm not out to buy the cheapest bike or get the best deal or whatnot. I'm looking at what I LIKE. And I like the kind of bikes the Chinese are making. I buy based on emotional reaction most of the time. I like how it looks, I like how I feel on it. This day and age there's no difference in a quality Chinese product and a quality Japanese product, except price. It also helps that I very much like the 350-650cc class of bikes best.

In 2023 it's no longer a risk to buy a Chinese bike from a reputable, quality marquee. That would be CFMoto, Benelli, or CSC. Both CFMoto and Benelli have a great dealer network. Benelli has more dealers in the US than KTM does, and the bikes have been on the road in Europe for more than 5 years. Tested and thrashed and many with high mileage. Almost all are glowing reviews. And there's a guy on a TRK502X on his way around the world.

Things have changed alreadyl; It's a brand new situation now. It took the Japanese decades to get to where they are as market leaders. The chinese are aimed to accomplish this in mere years. Perceptions and stigmas change slower though. Especially in the exceptionally propagandized USA.

Charles.

[Bruces]

If no members bought the new bike ,then there will be nothing on here about that bike other than a post saying that it’s available .

[JerryHawk250]

CF Moto has a wide selection of bikes at decent prices. https://cfmotousa.com/motorcycles

[Sport Rider]

I like the RX4, but I'm looking for something to go more off-road than that is geared for. the comparable is the Himalayan. Reviews say it's better for what I need. Once prices get to 4500 and up, I start looking at the used market for other brand names with known quality. Heck, even now I'm looking for a used Himi rather than new. I'm looking at the KLR650 as well and would likely pick up whichever hit the best price/value point for me.

You're right about quality going up. Like tknj99 said, I'm not sure I trust them enough yet to spend bigger $.

[Ratboy859]

I found this web site by researching the CSC SG250 motorcycle for my son. I never considered a China Bike for various reasons. My biggest concerns were buying on line, shipping to the house and then dealer support. Overall, I was getting my son on the road with a price point. He was going from dirt riding to street riding. If he didn't like it, I wasn't out of much money.

CSC has a Facebook presence for the new bikes. There are a few sites on FB, but nothing serious. If it means anything, the heavy site I am on also has the same problem. Riders ride but there aren't a lot of reviews of the newer bikes. There are plenty of complaints about the problems of the current stock. There is also the typical technical questions and thoughts. But very few reviews by owners on the newer bikes. There are plenty of suggestions about what bike is best, but those answers are jaded.

The question is how does one get newer model riders to put a review on the boards?

[Sport Rider]

I found this web site by researching the CSC SG250 motorcycle for my son. I never considered a China Bike for various reasons. My biggest concerns were buying on line, shipping to the house and then dealer support. Overall, I was getting my son on the road with a price point. He was going from dirt riding to street riding. If he didn't like it, I wasn't out of much money.

CSC has a Facebook presence for the new bikes. There are a few sites on FB, but nothing serious. If it means anything, the heavy site I am on also has the same problem. Riders ride but there aren't a lot of reviews of the newer bikes. There are plenty of complaints about the problems of the current stock. There is also the typical technical questions and thoughts. But very few reviews by owners on the newer bikes. There are plenty of suggestions about what bike is best, but those answers are jaded.

The question is how does one get newer model riders to put a review on the boards?

Well, first off, you can't trust anything that comes from someone in Gaston County. :p

Although people on here provide feedback and input on various bikes, I see a lot of links to youtube reviews. even the mainstream motorcycle rags don't have a great deal of new chinese bike reviews....although it's getting more attention than it used to.

[Megadan]

Simplest explanation I can give.

SG400 + processing fees and delivery costs = $5300
RZ3S Haylon 400 + processing and shipping at current sale price = $4600

2022 Yamaha MT03 + dealer fees at local dealership = $5100
2023 MT03 + Fees = $5400

MT03 is 50lbs lighter, makes 14 more hp, has a ton of factory and aftermarket support all over the country.

There are a ton of other big brand bikes in that category and the comparison is basically the same.

Meanwhile, in the cheap Hawk and Hawk like bike category.

KLX230 out the door = $5300
My Hawk delivered $1400. My silly number of upgrades cost about as much as the bike. Still half the price.
A KPX250, a very good bike to compare to the KLX is still 2 grand less. The KLX does have some advantages, sure, but for most guys doing light off road and street duty, you won take advantage of it.

That's why the cheap Hawk bikes are so prolific, and why nobody buys the bigger class of bikes available. The appeal was always in the cost savings, and there isn't enough savings. If the RZ3S Haylon 400 was 4k delivered, It would sell like the KPX250.

[Flashesbuck]

Simplest explanation I can give.

SG400 + processing fees and delivery costs = $5300
RZ3S Haylon 400 + processing and shipping at current sale price = $4600

2022 Yamaha MT03 + dealer fees at local dealership = $5100
2023 MT03 + Fees = $5400

MT03 is 50lbs lighter, makes 14 more hp, has a ton of factory and aftermarket support all over the country.

There are a ton of other big brand bikes in that category and the comparison is basically the same.

Meanwhile, in the cheap Hawk and Hawk like bike category.

KLX230 out the door = $5300
My Hawk delivered $1400. My silly number of upgrades cost about as much as the bike. Still half the price.
A KPX250, a very good bike to compare to the KLX is still 2 grand less. The KLX does have some advantages, sure, but for most guys doing light off road and street duty, you won take advantage of it.

That's why the cheap Hawk bikes are so prolific, and why nobody buys the bigger class of bikes available. The appeal was always in the cost savings, and there isn't enough savings. If the RZ3S Haylon 400 was 4k delivered, It would sell like the KPX250.


I would agree….. That Haylon 400 was on my short list. I could get it shipped right to my door for just shy of $5k. Its steap, but looking around there isnt much at that price range… like you said for not much more I could get into a new Jap bike.
then you cannot ignore the second had market, although dealing with a privit party is a real pain and there alot of value to just ordering something online and having it show up a few weeks later.
There really isnt anything out on Youtube about the Haylon, the main reason I passed it up.
I am currenly waiting for delivery on a new KPX…. I looked good and hard at the Hawk EFI, and the KPM 200…. I settled on the KPX as I would really like to build a supermoto.
I wish we could get a reasonable quick smaller bike from china…. in the 300-350cc range. Im thinking Hawk quality here, maybe supermoto or cafe racer styling. Keep it cheap, but still give me EFI.

[JerryHawk250]

CF Moto does have 300-450cc bike for a reasonable price. https://cfmotousa.com/motorcycles

[Megadan]

CF Moto does have 300-450cc bike for a reasonable price. https://cfmotousa.com/motorcycles

Yeah, and I am sure it's a decent bike too. Component wise the quality may be on par with the Japanese stuff in the same bracket.

It's still down on power at 29hp, 7 less than the RZ3S, and more expensive.

Then there is the Elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about. Resale - both value and ease of doing so.

Used 300 to 400cc class bikes are hot on the second hand market, so they sell for just a few hundred less than new. The CF Moto and the RZ3S wouldn't hold that kind of value, and won't attract the same number of buyers.

A great example of this is the Genuine G400C. Arguably not a bad bike, but it is a slow seller. A dealer in Kansas City still has 3 2020's in stock, brand new. They won't sell because they won't come down on the price at all. Put them at 3k and I bet they would all sell in short order.

[AJ22_ChinaRider]

New bikes coming to the US in April of this year. Moto Morini X-Cape 650 and Seiemmezzo .
The engine is based off the Kawasaki 650 twin. The engine is built by CF Moto. It Looks like the Lifan KPT400 will be delayed till later this year or beginning of next year because of EPA issues. I'm personally liking the X-Cape over the KPT400 now. https://www.motomoriniusa.com/motorcycles

The X-Cape looks mean but the promo video shows them just going on a flat paved road :D. Only the brochure has a few pics of it offroad!

[JerryHawk250]

The X-Cape looks mean but the promo video shows them just going on a flat paved road :D. Only the brochure has a few pics of it offroad!

I've watched a few off road videos. Pretty impressive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka_tb2n9Ya0&t=313s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWWN8RnShWI

[Megadan]

Speaking of CF Moto, I came across this today. A 200ish hp 1000cc V4 sport bike. Sounds like they are trying to make a serious competitor for the liter bike market.

https://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle-news/cfmoto-200-horsepower-sportbike-v-4/

This really has my interest, as I am a big V4 guy.

[BobL]

I glanced at the CF Moto 300SS, but at $4500 for a 300 single, I'd rather go the little bit extra and get the 400 twin Ninja. Either one is more than I wanna spend though. I'm really just looking for something to toy around town on. I'm well past the age of needin a bike that can do 0 to 60 in half a second.

[JerryHawk250]

I glanced at the CF Moto 300SS, but at $4500 for a 300 single, I'd rather go the little bit extra and get the 400 twin Ninja. Either one is more than I wanna spend though. I'm really just looking for something to toy around town on. I'm well past the age of needin a bike that can do 0 to 60 in half a second.

The 450SS is a twin.

[BobL]

The 450SS is a twin.

Yes, and it's also $ 1000 more, and the same MSRP as the 400 Ninja. Don't get me wrong, they are both nice looking bikes, but for the price, I'd go with the Kawa before going with a China bike.

[JerryHawk250]

Yes, and it's also $ 1000 more, and the same MSRP as the 400 Ninja. Don't get me wrong, they are both nice looking bikes, but for the price, I'd go with the Kawa before going with a China bike.
I've checked around at some of the local dealerships and they are selling $800-$1000 below MSRP. They have a bunch of leftover 2022 models. I'm sure they will be willing to make a deal.

[Thumper]

The arrival of a true 250 (ZS172FMM) in a dual purpose convert last year (Templar series) was a game changer, and the more refined KPX with EFI was a good complementary option in the street legal full sized dirtbike. Orion's EFI RXB 250 is another slightly different option in a street legal 20hp dirtbike.

Dual purpose isn't really a street bike, but it is a popular streetable category.

My entry point was a 230cc Storm, which is still a great value and there are many similar bargain bikes with that powerplant. I put a BIG and wide Tusk DSport on the Storm and it is a real goat! My son loves it. He uses it on the street to get to school and the pool (lifeguarding).

But I'd like to see water cooled OHC NC300cc or better yet NC450 street legal version of these bargain level dual sport bikes. Kove 450 is here (GPX is selling the rally), but it is real expensive. You see lower priced 450s in other markets, but not in North America. And it would be great to see the more competition for 2 stroke 250s and even 300s. GPX has them but again, on the pricey side.

The new thing is the adventure sport look with way too much weight high up for anything but pavement (in my opinion). It's the new "look". But I'd rather just find a used inline 4 cylinder 650 to 1000cc standard (or a used Bonneville!) and work on suspension upgrades and panniers for touring. Lower center of gravity means better cornering.

[ChopperCharles]

I agree about the Hayalon. There are a lot of better, cheaper alternatives if you want a naked sport bike. The bike would have to have been really, really good, or really, really cheap to sell. But the SG400 I think is a winner. Nobody else - nobody - makes a neo retro cafe racer and the next closest thing is a Royal Enfield 650... which has a $6000 MSRP, so probably closer to $6800 out the door. It doesn't have neo-retro styling tho, just retro styling. Then there's the Kawasaki z650RS, which is neo-retro but not a cafe... and a whopping $9000 bucks. The z900RS is even more. That's it, those are the only bikes even remotely like the SG400.

Obviously CSC was having a hard time moving the Hayalons, as they cut the price by a grand last year, and are not currently selling them anymore. (They're not on the CSC website) Meaning they sold all old stock and aren't going to get any new, in all likelihood. The SG400 is still on their site though, so it's obviously selling well enough to keep it around.

Charles.

[N7sithis]

Simplest explanation I can give.

SG400 + processing fees and delivery costs = $5300
RZ3S Haylon 400 + processing and shipping at current sale price = $4600

2022 Yamaha MT03 + dealer fees at local dealership = $5100
2023 MT03 + Fees = $5400

MT03 is 50lbs lighter, makes 14 more hp, has a ton of factory and aftermarket support all over the country.

There are a ton of other big brand bikes in that category and the comparison is basically the same.

Meanwhile, in the cheap Hawk and Hawk like bike category.

KLX230 out the door = $5300
My Hawk delivered $1400. My silly number of upgrades cost about as much as the bike. Still half the price.
A KPX250, a very good bike to compare to the KLX is still 2 grand less. The KLX does have some advantages, sure, but for most guys doing light off road and street duty, you won take advantage of it.

That's why the cheap Hawk bikes are so prolific, and why nobody buys the bigger class of bikes available. The appeal was always in the cost savings, and there isn't enough savings. If the RZ3S Haylon 400 was 4k delivered, It would sell like the KPX250.
As usual, this man has the answer.

IMO the whole point in buying a Chinese bike was to get in easy and cheap - less than 2k for my hawk after taxes and shipping, which Amazon let me use my amazon card for, so i pay $120 a month for my bike. I cannot afford 5grand upfront for a bike, and if I'm gonna make that big of a purchase, might as well buy a used Japanese bike. Hell, for 5gs you can get a new Japanese bike lol

[BobL]

I've checked around at some of the local dealerships and they are selling $800-$1000 below MSRP. They have a bunch of leftover 2022 models. I'm sure they will be willing to make a deal.

I have a 'big four' dealer about 15 minutes from me, listed on the CFMOTO website as a dealer. All they have in stock are quads. There is another dealer listed, roughly an hour away. All they have is 2023's. Any dealer that is 'local enough' for me to consider even looking, doesn't have stock. There's actually a pair of Harley dealers listed, but neither have any stock at all. That's also a weird concept to me, American and Chinese under the same roof. Sounds like someone's playing a joke.

[tknj99]

Not so weird indeed as Harleys have some of their parts produced in China but yea made in America lol

[ChopperCharles]

As usual, this man has the answer.

IMO the whole point in buying a Chinese bike was to get in easy and cheap - less than 2k for my hawk after taxes and shipping, which Amazon let me use my amazon card for, so i pay $120 a month for my bike. I cannot afford 5grand upfront for a bike, and if I'm gonna make that big of a purchase, might as well buy a used Japanese bike. Hell, for 5gs you can get a new Japanese bike lol

If that's the case, then this site shouldn't be called "chinariders", it should be called "cheapskateriders", "miserriders", "dirtcheapriders", or something similar.

Charles.

[Working_ZS]

I agree about the Hayalon. There are a lot of better, cheaper alternatives if you want a naked sport bike. The bike would have to have been really, really good, or really, really cheap to sell. But the SG400 I think is a winner. Nobody else - nobody - makes a neo retro cafe racer and the next closest thing is a Royal Enfield 650... which has a $6000 MSRP, so probably closer to $6800 out the door. It doesn't have neo-retro styling tho, just retro styling. Then there's the Kawasaki z650RS, which is neo-retro but not a cafe... and a whopping $9000 bucks. The z900RS is even more. That's it, those are the only bikes even remotely like the SG400.

Obviously CSC was having a hard time moving the Hayalons, as they cut the price by a grand last year, and are not currently selling them anymore. (They're not on the CSC website) Meaning they sold all old stock and aren't going to get any new, in all likelihood. The SG400 is still on their site though, so it's obviously selling well enough to keep it around.

Charles.

I believe that the Haylon was a "freebie" - meaning that since it used the exact same TC380 engine as the SG400, it was able to piggyback on the same EPA/CARB approval and was a low risk venture for CSC. There were bound to be a few people who would buy one at MSRP, and if/when sales slowed, CSC could blow them out at cost and recoup their investment, as they've done. The SG400 was the prize all along. It will be interesting to see how the RX6 plays out; I'm in, if you're curious, I paid my deposit yesterday. I'll be getting rid of my Versys 650....hopefully that vaunted "Japanese resale value" doesn't let me down, lol.

And to address the original thread question - I believe it is due to the fact that we are a bunch of old farts, relatively speaking. Most younger generations do not frequent old style forums, it's pretty much social media all the way - Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and now TikTok. I glance at CSC's Facebook page from time to time and I see gobs of posts and questions from folks who I know I'll never see on these forums in a million years. CSC is obviously selling a ton of bikes and making money doing it, the fact that they are still here eight years later, alive and well and bringing in more and more bikes backs that up.

Now why aren't there more actual reviews? Easy...that shit takes time and money. A decent GoPro set up and video editing software, plus a high enough spec computer to run it and edit 4K footage ain't cheap. While everyone on ChinaRiders pretty much are, by their own admission. And yes, it has to be 4K or everyone will bitch about it not being 4K in the comments. Then you have to actually buy the bike. Which no one wants to do because if it's more than $2000, then they will just look for a "good, used Japanese bike". Horseshit to that, I say - but that's just me. I've spent damn near $25,000 on Chinese motorcycles, plus another $11,000 on "good, used Japanese bikes" in the last nine years and as far as differences in quality go, from the RX4 onward their aren't any. If you buy Japanese, you spend more and get less, plain and simple. Look at the CF Moto 800MT and 700CX bikes, and now the RX6, plus the Benelli offerings, and tell me which Japanese bikes at those price points can go toe to toe with them. Let me answer that for you - none.

The Chinese aren't screwing around anymore, they're bringing guns to a knife fight, intending to win. They're not confining themselves to the cheap 150cc-230cc CB or CG clone dual sport arena these days. Instead, they're going after the 400cc and up playground, which due to cost appears to not be ChinaRider territory. Which is OK by me, I don't need to see my bike reviewed to confirm to me that I made a good purchase. I do that myself by riding the damn thing. Hell who knows, someday I might even buy a GoPro and review my bikes myself, but it's not a priority right now, though apparently my pre-ordered RX6 has front and rear cameras built in, soooo maybe that bike gets reviewed first...we'll have to play it by ear.

[Sullybiker]

I agree with Dan, I think most people are comfortble getting into something 1.5-2k USD on the premise that if it doesn't work out it's not the end of the world. Also if you have the patience to understand the wrenching side the CB clone bikes (and their more exotic Lifan cousins) are actually very, very good.



My assumption is CSC know what they're doing, and are running a playbook. Namely, gently growing their market, but I have to wonder if they're straying from the path a bit. The RX6 is a full-bore head-on challenger to a very busy market.



I always considered the RX3 the way Joe Berk does; a sort of gateway to a higher tier of Chinese quality, that is still cheap enough that you might just be tempted to not worry about the usual concerns of no dealer support and badge prestige. If it fulfils your requirements, you get a well-equipped bike that does all you need for an extremely modest price.



I'm not sure I can say that about the RX4 and upward, because to me they're in a different class in terms of size, weight, and cost. It's a dumb cliche to say "You can get a used Japanese bike for that!" because those bikes (here at least) are largely apocryphal, but the sentiment is correct: You're creeping towards the established market, and in the case of the RX6, you're right in it.

[ChopperCharles]

The Chinese aren't screwing around anymore, they're bringing guns to a knife fight, intending to win. They're not confining themselves to the cheap 150cc-230cc CB or CG clone dual sport arena these days. Instead, they're going after the 400cc and up playground, which due to cost appears to not be ChinaRider territory. Which is OK by me, I don't need to see my bike reviewed to confirm to me that I made a good purchase. I do that myself by riding the damn thing. Hell who knows, someday I might even buy a GoPro and review my bikes myself, but it's not a priority right now, though apparently my pre-ordered RX6 has front and rear cameras built in, soooo maybe that bike gets reviewed first...we'll have to play it by ear.

To my mind, they're bringing a knife to a knife fight. The big downside to Chinese bikes is they're all about 50 pounds heavier than the competition, and get pretty awful mileage at sea level. (I'm getting 38-40mpg with my leoncino trail, as low as 35mpg on the SG400 when riding interstate. As high as 57 when hot-dogging in the mountains tho).

If they can drop the weight they'll be bringing a gun to a knife fight. Right now they've got a nice blade, but buyers crave good numbers on spec sheets. Spec sheets get people in the door of the dealership to look at the bike. Then emotions can kick in, and it becomes a sale.

My local dealership is combatting that by putting the big $19,000 Versys right next to the $6000 Benelli TRK502. People come to look at the Versys and see pretty much the same bike with half the horsepower and ask... is an extra 60 horsepower worth 13 thousand bucks to me? I mean, you can almost buy THREE Benelli TRK502 bikes for the cost of the Versys. So to make a long story short, they're selling pretty well it seems. They always have at least two on the floor, and they don't stay there long.

Charles.

[Deneteus]

I'm a lurker and I just can't justify 5k as a parent that also has to deal with inflation on food, fuel, electricity, water and the fact that if there were an emergency I couldn't sell these bikes and get out close to what I put in. I wouldn't rush out and buy the SG400 when I can find a Honda 500CC easily and not think twice about resale value. I can get cars with more HP for less and that is what most people have in their heads. I recently bought a 2020 SG250 with 114 MI. People are questioning my sanity because its a Chinabike because Japanese bikes are so cheap but only if you are watching out like a hawk because the used market is still coming down.. Almost no forums are making a big deal of documenting the upgrades. That includes Reddit and and the Adventure Riders forum. I like to experiment. I am not afraid of wrenching, AutoCAD or making things but I still expect there to be a decent level of spare parts support as well. I can't go to CSC and get a carburetor rebuild kit for the SG250. I have to spend my time manually digging up parts and waiting on shipping. That's my only problem with this stuff. I can find scooter parts easier than stock parts. It's also a gamble buying parts off Amazon and Aliexpress. I am fully aware that Zongshen makes parts for everything under the sun but I need them to be easier to source locally as well. With a Honda I can literally find parts everywhere.