help with starting issue on quad

[steelrfn]

Here's a picture of my kids new 4 wheeler they got 3 months ago.
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc38/steelrfn/personal/100_0962.jpg

There are a couple of issues with it.
There seems to be some oil leakage around a cover on the right side of the head when facing the quad, which seems to be bolted to a corresponding cover on the other side, not sure what that is supposed to be or how tight to bolt it.
Also, and much more importantly it almost refuses to start. It runs the onboard battery dead every time the kids try, and when we do get it to start it takes a jump start from my truck to do it.
Once it warms up though, it runs like a top and will start right up, any ideas?
the engine is a variation on the standard 110cc and I can provide more photos if needed.

[steelrfn]

Here's a pic that may be more useful to the mechanically inclined

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc38/steelrfn/personal/100_0963.jpg

[katoranger]

Check the battery connections. It may help to add a second negative ground wire.

The oil leak can likely be resolve be replacing the gasket or maybe just tightening the bolts.

Allen

[steelrfn]

Check the battery connections. It may help to add a second negative ground wire.

The oil leak can likely be resolve be replacing the gasket or maybe just tightening the bolts.

Allen

Will do, and thanks for the quick response.

[DesertDog]

have you done any carb adjustments yet, air /fuel screw, fuel flow , check to see if thats good, there's alot of factors

i worked on a customers quad like that for 2 weeks same probs, finally i took the starter apert and found that the wire windings had a plastic coating on them, well on the bushing part that contacts the smaller spring loaded bushings,
took the wire brush to the contacts and put it back together, hit the start button
whala it started right up,
say it still does it, :x try opening the gap up on the spark plug to a .35/.40
or something like that , all my quads came in with the plug nearly closed, or set at .22,

wanna give it an extra boost, add some high 104 octane to a 2 gallon can of gas for better mix, 2 ounces will be fine

and lube that chain its looking pretty rusty

DD

[yurkia]

and lube that chain its looking pretty rusty


I was thinking the same.

[steelrfn]

have you done any carb adjustments yet, air /fuel screw, fuel flow , check to see if thats good, there's alot of factors

i worked on a customers quad like that for 2 weeks same probs, finally i took the starter apert and found that the wire windings had a plastic coating on them, well on the bushing part that contacts the smaller spring loaded bushings,
took the wire brush to the contacts and put it back together, hit the start button
whala it started right up,
say it still does it, :x try opening the gap up on the spark plug to a .35/.40
or something like that , all my quads came in with the plug nearly closed, or set at .22,

wanna give it an extra boost, add some high 104 octane to a 2 gallon can of gas for better mix, 2 ounces will be fine

and lube that chain its looking pretty rusty

DD

Yeah, all my toys have rusty chains right now :lol:
Gonna have to either teach the oldest boy how to do it or figure out something to coat them with so they don't weather while I am gone.

[steelrfn]

And by the way, it seems to be getting decent fuel, ( no obstruction in the line, moves freely when the thumb switch is pushed), also just replaced the plug, (dealer did when I took it to them).
Really frustrating thing about it is that I sprayed in starter fluid to try and prime it, and got no difference at all.
Leads me to think there might be something to that starter idea :(


Really wish the damn thing had a kickstart or could be popstarted :(

Would sure help with isolating the problem.

[katoranger]

It sounds like you need to check the choke and possibly move the c-clip.

Allen

[steelrfn]

It sounds like you need to check the choke and possibly move the c-clip.

Allen
choke works, I can see it operate with the air filter off.
Would the c-clip thing depend on whether it's warm or not? Like I said, when it FINALLY starts it stays running no problem, and then once it warms up will start in a heartbeat.

I can sure check it though.

[katoranger]

Yes the c-clip will. Moving the clip toward the pointed end will richen the fuel mixture and make starting/idling easier.

Allen

[steelrfn]

Yes the c-clip will. Moving the clip toward the pointed end will richen the fuel mixture and make starting/idling easier.

Allen

Sounds like it might be a winner, will check that and the rest of the ideas here tomorrow after work.
You guys are an awesome help.

[DesertDog]

Yes the c-clip will. Moving the clip toward the pointed end will richen the fuel mixture and make starting/idling easier.

Allen

Sounds like it might be a winner, will check that and the rest of the ideas here tomorrow after work.
You guys are an awesome help.

check is in the mail :roll: right ?

[steelrfn]

Yes the c-clip will. Moving the clip toward the pointed end will richen the fuel mixture and make starting/idling easier.

Allen

Sounds like it might be a winner, will check that and the rest of the ideas here tomorrow after work.
You guys are an awesome help.

check is in the mail :roll: right ?

What do you mean?

[DesertDog]

i suppose advice is free anymore, oh-well :!:

please keep us posted if you find the real problem and get it up and runnin

[ejcycles]

Shouldn't this Thread be in the ATV section???

[katoranger]

It should. Moved

Allen

[steelrfn]

i suppose advice is free anymore, oh-well :!:

please keep us posted if you find the real problem and get it up and runnin

I sure hope it is :D

Tried the added ground wire, no luck, adjusted the c-clip, no luck, tore apart and cleaned and reassembled the starter, still no luck. Tried regapping the plug and found out that now I am not getting spark.
Will try the coil from one of my kids pit bikes tomorrow. :(

[steelrfn]

And thanks for moving the thread, don't know what I was thinking. :oops:

[katoranger]

It may be a weak coil or cdi. Typically they stop working after they get hot.

Allen

[steelrfn]

It may be a weak coil or cdi. Typically they stop working after they get hot.

Allen

It's the reverse problem, it only runs when it's hot.

Appreciate the advice though.

[warrior91]

The Chinese battery is crap. If it starts when boosted or warm the the bat don't have enough juice to spin the motor fast enough to fire up when cold...Moving the clip is a good idea...but I would try a different battery. A $50 motorcycle battery is 100 times better than what comes with the bike.

[steelrfn]

The Chinese battery is crap. If it starts when boosted or warm the the bat don't have enough juice to spin the motor fast enough to fire up when cold...Moving the clip is a good idea...but I would try a different battery. A $50 motorcycle battery is 100 times better than what comes with the bike.

I think that's at least part of the problem, although now I believe the coil has crapped out as well.
That or something else in the starting system is causing it not to fire.
Just looked at the pit bikes, and they have a dual wire coil, this one has one wire, the other is looped.


Weird.

[warrior91]

My kids 70cc honda starts at first but will not restart after warm up...no spark after a little bit coil i think, either that or the pickup needs replaced.

[steelrfn]

Anyone know if there's a way to install a kickstart on one of these ATV's?
If that isn't possible I am REAL tempted to throw a 110 on there.

It has some kind of CV transmission, if that helps.

[DesertDog]

hey steel that would be the better route , to put a different engine in it, hopefully it wont give you the same prob.

[steelrfn]

hey steel that would be the better route , to put a different engine in it, hopefully it wont give you the same prob.

That's what I am thinking, I would feel alot better about having a standard engine with a kickstart on there anyway, especially since the current set up doesn't allow pop starts either, and seems VERY underpowered for a 110cc.

I am either going to heist one of my 13 year olds pitbike engines or pick up one.

Time for the younger kids to learn to ride with a clutch.

[katoranger]

Bruce would know for sure, but I think it would require splitting the cases to install a kick start shaft and then you would also need a sidecover with the hole.

I would swap engines.

Allen

[steelrfn]

Bruce would know for sure, but I think it would require splitting the cases to install a kick start shaft and then you would also need a sidecover with the hole.

I would swap engines.

Allen

Thanks, guess that's what I'm going to do if I can't get it started today.

Bruce would know for sure, but I think it would require splitting the cases to install a kick start shaft and then you would also need a sidecover with the hole.

I would swap engines.

Allen

Thanks, guess that's what I'm going to do if I can't get it started today.

Why not just fix the bike??? Yeah a kick start would be great, Push start would be great! If it's a CDI or coil problem a kick start won't help...

The atv is only three months old, It deserves to be fixed!

If you just wanna take it apart, well, thats another story!

[steelrfn]

Bruce would know for sure, but I think it would require splitting the cases to install a kick start shaft and then you would also need a sidecover with the hole.

I would swap engines.

Allen

Thanks, guess that's what I'm going to do if I can't get it started today.

Why not just fix the bike??? Yeah a kick start would be great, Push start would be great! If it's a CDI or coil problem a kick start won't help...

The atv is only three months old, It deserves to be fixed!

If you just wanna take it apart, well, thats another story!

I go to sea alot, so I need something that at least my oldest can start.
I did some more checking today, and it looks like no voltage at all is making it to the coil... which is just about where my knowledge ends.
I have CDI's from my 200 and my sons 110 that I can try, but not sure if they are the same.
Any suggestions would be appreciated, I went over all the connections I could find and can't seem to locate any broken wires or loose connections.

[warrior91]

If the pins look like a match...plug them in! Can't be any/much difference on anything under 200cc or bigger than 50cc.

[steelrfn]

If the pins look like a match...plug them in! Can't be any/much difference on anything under 200cc or bigger than 50cc.

Sounds logical, I will try that tomorrow.

Would be great to find out that was the whole problem.

[warrior91]

Would not be the first CDI or Coil or Batt. to fail on a new chinabike.
Replacements are cheap, and you must realize that on any "econo" product, some assembly (re-assembly :lol: ) is required.

[steelrfn]

Would not be the first CDI or Coil or Batt. to fail on a new chinabike.
Replacements are cheap, and you must realize that on any "econo" product, some assembly (re-assembly :lol: ) is required.

Yeah, and this is my third... maybe fourth chinese bike, one 110cc for my oldest boy, then a 200cc my wife got me for christmas two years ago, then a 125 with a shot engine because his original frame was crappy, and now the 4 wheeler.

[warrior91]

I am lucky I guess. Hoses, tire tubes sparkplugs and battery are all I needed to replace as yet. I swapped out some swingarm bushings because I felt the originals were crap.
I do love the bikes, they run good but the running gear needs tinkering with every second big ride.

[steelrfn]

I am lucky I guess. Hoses, tire tubes sparkplugs and battery are all I needed to replace as yet. I swapped out some swingarm bushings because I felt the originals were crap.
I do love the bikes, they run good but the running gear needs tinkering with every second big ride.

The good news for me is that my son has beat that 110 like it stole from him for two years and it's still running strong. :D

[warrior91]

:P Thats great, I hope my daughters 125 runs like that. I have a hard time keeping off her bike ,it is pretty zippy.

[steelrfn]

Does anyone know where I can find a wiring diagram for the electric start 110's? I have found some for the bigger engines, but no such luck on this one.

Checking out a site DD posted in another thread right now...

EDIT* found a diagram at the komoto site, all these 110's should be similiar if not 100% right?

[steelrfn]

The 110 manual from komoto shows the wires, but isn't a true wiring diagram, if someone has, or knows where to find, an actual schematic for this thing that would be awesome.

[mblas3]

This is for a 110 ATV http://store.oohla.com/storefiles/terminatorscooter//download/accessory/14622/dianlutu.pdf

[steelrfn]

Thanks MBLAS, much appreciated.

[steelrfn]

Took the CDI and coil back to the place I bought it.
They put them on another ATV and both work fine.

The owner of the shop said that jumping it from a car battery may have burned up the wiring, any thoughts? Seems to me that the system should only pull the power it needs, and therefore unless something is grounded, (which I have no indication of), then it shouldn't pull enough amps to burn anything out.

Underway for a couple of weeks starting today, but going to check this theory out when I get back.

[katoranger]

If it damaged anything it would have been the battery.

I don't think that is the case.

Allen

[steelrfn]

If it damaged anything it would have been the battery.

I don't think that is the case.

Allen


Thanks, that's exactly what I thought as well.
I am going to hand over hand the wiring harness and pull the cover off again to check the wiring there.
Any idea what to do if none of that works?

[IronFist]

Check yer fuse brother......

[steelrfn]

Check yer fuse brother......
Will do, and if that's it I will be pissed 8O

[VinceDrake]

This is kinda stupid, But, if that doesn't work put bigger/better/stronger/faster ground wires on the Frame AND Engine, and a bigger power lead to the sol and starter. The stuff on my ATV's has been pathetically small, there weren't a lot of voltage left to run the coil/CDI, etc. with the starter crankilating. But bigger stuff on, and they seem to light much better.

--Vince

[steelrfn]

This is kinda stupid, But, if that doesn't work put bigger/better/stronger/faster ground wires on the Frame AND Engine, and a bigger power lead to the sol and starter. The stuff on my ATV's has been pathetically small, there weren't a lot of voltage left to run the coil/CDI, etc. with the starter crankilating. But bigger stuff on, and they seem to light much better.

--Vince

Will probably end up doing that either way.

The problem wasn't the fuse, so I am back to hand over handing all the wiring to find the problem. :(

[mblas3]

Try disconnecting the tether kill switch and also disconnect the Black wire with white strip at the CDI(kill circuit). That can narrow down allot of issues on these ATVs.

Mark

[steelrfn]

Try disconnecting the tether kill switch and also disconnect the Black wire with white strip at the CDI(kill circuit). That can narrow down allot of issues on these ATVs.

Mark

Tether kill already disconnected, will disconnected the black/white ASAP.


What is that?

[mblas3]

That is the ignition kill circuit wire. If a switch is arcing or a short in the wire the coil will get no spark.

Mark

[steelrfn]

That is the ignition kill circuit wire. If a switch is arcing or a short in the wire the coil will get no spark.

Mark

Got it, shot an email to the Mrs to see if my 13 year old can figure out how to disconnect it without cutting it.

Thanks for the info MBLAS.

[winnipegmike]

Took the CDI and coil back to the place I bought it.
They put them on another ATV and both work fine.

The owner of the shop said that jumping it from a car battery may have burned up the wiring, any thoughts? Seems to me that the system should only pull the power it needs, and therefore unless something is grounded, (which I have no indication of), then it shouldn't pull enough amps to burn anything out.

Underway for a couple of weeks starting today, but going to check this theory out when I get back.

OK...let's set this straight! You can boost any motorcycle from any 12V vehicle! The vehicle "receiving" the boost only draws what it needs. To simplify this, look at your house electrical system. You can plug a toaster or blow dryer into your home electrical outlet (1500 watts required). You can also plug a 40 watt lamp into the same socket. Does the light get fried? NO!

If the vehicle being boosted has a short.....BIG TROUBLE, all of the power goes straight to ground = fried wires. If no short, no problem.

FYI...I have spent the majority of my working life working for the worlds largest automotive/motorcycle battery manufacturer.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, just stating the facts.

Therfore STEELFRN...you are EXACTLY correct.

[steelrfn]

Well, so much for all of that.
All the parts checked out in the starting circuit and it doesn't seem to be a short in the wiring either. :(
Talked to the dealer and they recommend I bring it in and they will check it over again.
Looks like what I will have to do, although last time they charged me $40 and it started all of once before it quit working again.

[steelrfn]

OK, been a LONG while, but if anyone is wondering I finally took it back to the place I bought it.
They kept it two weeks and finally told me it had too low compression to start.

It was driven in my yard for less than 6 months :cry:

I bought a 110 manual clutch, kickstart motor for it though, and it is running like a top and starts on the first kick :lol:

[Weldangrind]

I'd love to see a photo of how the kicker works with the bodywork.

[steelrfn]

I'll take one tomorrow, but the short answer is... I removed the body work for that fender in the area I needed to.

[FLASHLIGHTBOY]

I hate to argue with anyone.. but I have seen many 50-70 amp atv batterys blowed up because some one boosted with another 12 volt battery( 500 -750 amp battery) you may get away with it.. but then again.. you might just win the lottery as well... I have seen the tops blow off & the bottom of the battery rounded like a mini football.. acid is hard on your face and other items.. if you want to boost it.. and blow your starter as well... dis-connect the battery... as if the unit is charging.. you do not need a battery to keep it running... try this .. dis-connect the battery when the motor is running.. you will see that the chartging system keeps it running.. so you know the charging system is working.. play safe .. not stupid..

[steelrfn]

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc38/steelrfn/2010-06-10204536.jpg

[steelrfn]

as a bonus, here's my atc110 with a chinese 90 on it.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc38/steelrfn/2010-06-10204602.jpg

[Cal25]

as a bonus, here's my atc110 with a chinese 90 on it.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc38/steelrfn/2010-06-10204602.jpg

How does that carb/air filter setup work?

[Weldangrind]

I like how you trimmed the quad fender and bordered it with tubing. Not much to protect the leg, but you've got a kicker.

[katoranger]

That is a nice mod. Those little engines are so easy to kick too.

Allen

[steelrfn]

How does that carb/air filter setup work? in limited backyard testing its been fine. I forsee buying a 90 degree manifold for trails however

[steelrfn]

That is a nice mod. Those little engines are so easy to kick too.

Allenall three kids can start it fairly easy, which was the goal