pure gas versus 10% ethenol

[bechandler07]

has anyone tried pure gas versus the 10% ethenol ? i am wondering if the bikes would run better . there is only 1 place around here that sales pure gas but if it runs better it will be worth the extra few cents

[Jim]

I've moved this to misc since it doesn't specifically apply to dual sports...

I haven't even seen an ethanol blend available in my area, I did however see it on my trip to Saskatchewan. The bike seems to run fine on regular gas. I'm not very educated on the subject of fuel / alternative fuels though.

[bechandler07]

my bike is a hi-bird gy200 that is why i put it in dual sport

[bechandler07]

everything around here is blend . more of that tree-hugger stuff that cleans emissions but clogs fuel filters alot sooner

[AZ200cc]

As with everything one person must try it first.......Guess that might be You......... 8O

[Jim]

everything around here is blend . more of that tree-hugger stuff that cleans emissions but clogs fuel filters alot sooner

I guess not having one on the bike you don't have to worry about it, but then the gunk that would clog the filter is in the engine...

I've seen all sorts of additives and stuff, of course Chevron with their Techron... And Shell is now adding nitrogen... I haven't used anything but plain old gas in the Lifan though.

[suprf1y]

Ethanol has a lot of people angry, and I'm not sure why.
Its an excellent fuel, and has almost none of the negative qualities of methanol.
People cry about jetting, but at 10%, which is pretty much the standard, there is not enough to make a difference.
Just about all the fuel in Canada is supposed to have ethanol in it (search top tier gas), but trying to get that info from the gas companies can be a little confusing. Shell's new 'nitrogen enriched' fuel is marketing nonsense. One of my buddies is an ethanol hater, and only uses Shell premium, which they claim has no ethanol. I told him I'd rather have high octane ethanol in my gas, than nitrogen, which won't even support combustion. :lol:

[AZ200cc]

Anything that cuts down on oil consumption is cool by me, I'd run my bike on beer if they could make it work.

[Weldangrind]

Ethanol has a lot of people angry, and I'm not sure why.
Its an excellent fuel, and has almost none of the negative qualities of methanol.
People cry about jetting, but at 10%, which is pretty much the standard, there is not enough to make a difference.
Just about all the fuel in Canada is supposed to have ethanol in it (search top tier gas), but trying to get that info from the gas companies can be a little confusing. Shell's new 'nitrogen enriched' fuel is marketing nonsense. One of my buddies is an ethanol hater, and only uses Shell premium, which they claim has no ethanol. I told him I'd rather have high octane ethanol in my gas, than nitrogen, which won't even support combustion. :lol:

Excellent points.

Any ethanol-blended gasoline will have a higher octane rating, but not necessarily that much. E85 gasoline is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline, and that works out to about 110 octane. A 10% ethanol-blended gasoline won't have much of an increase in octane.

More importantly (contrary to popular belief), higher octane does not produce more power, it produces less due to a slower flamefront. A high compression engine requires high octane so that fuel won't spontaneously combust.

To respond to brianc9306's question, 10% ethanol wouldn't necessarily be better. If you modified the engine for higher compression, ethanol-blended fuel would help to protect the engine. A typical low or midrange compression engine would be a little harder to start, but the engine would tend to run a bit cooler.

[forchetto]

I don't suppose 10% ethanol makes that much difference but for the record bikes supplied for use in places like Brazil have larger idle and main jets and higher needle positions. This is because by law they use 25% ethanol blended with their fuel.

The reason for larger jets is that alcohol requires a richer air/fuel ratio. There's talk around that 10% ethanol blend (E10) needs a main jet 2 sizes larger than a straight hydrocarbon fuel.

[knothead]

Ethanol has a lot of people angry, and I'm not sure why.
Its an excellent fuel, and has almost none of the negative qualities of methanol.
People cry about jetting, but at 10%, which is pretty much the standard, there is not enough to make a difference.
Just about all the fuel in Canada is supposed to have ethanol in it (search top tier gas), but trying to get that info from the gas companies can be a little confusing. Shell's new 'nitrogen enriched' fuel is marketing nonsense. One of my buddies is an ethanol hater, and only uses Shell premium, which they claim has no ethanol. I told him I'd rather have high octane ethanol in my gas, than nitrogen, which won't even support combustion. :lol:


Ethanol can be really hard on rubber seals and o-rings especially in older vehicles. Not to mention that, gallon per gallon, it takes more petroleum to produce ethanol than you get out of it (think about the fuel/oil for the farming, shipping, the power to process... not to mention all the petroleum based fertilizer and pesticides.).

Shell's hydrogen gasoline??? I made the mistake of filling my DR650 up with that stuff, with just a 50/50 mix in my tank and the bike is pinging, running hot and has lost power (like it's running way lean). I'm getting ready to drain it out here in a few minuets. I guess they are counting on the car's computer to compensate for the crappyness of that stuff. I'll never use that junk again!

[suprf1y]

There's talk around that 10% ethanol blend (E10) needs a main jet 2 sizes larger than a straight hydrocarbon fuel.

And its nonsense.
At 10% its affect is insignificant.

[phil]

i would think that most would never know. i still wonder what we are really pouring in our tank, untill i find some way to test octane myself that is safe,easy and quick we may never. all i can deal with is facts or numbers alcohol has less btus than gas so it cannot take us as far as gas. but then alcohol burns cleaner and removes carbon so octane requirements would be less but the real question i have to ask. the weights and measures board makes sure we get a gallon for every gallon we pay for (most of the time) BUT do they regulate what we are paying for such as octane, alcohol, water and additives such as dirt, nitrogen and soap

[Qingdao]

My Suzuki wouldn't run on ethonol. AND I hate the smell of corn when I run my motor.

[bechandler07]

i work at autozone and have been in retail auto parts biz since 99 . I know here within the past year or so we have seen a considerable increase in fuel related problems due to the increased usage of ethenol blended fuels . there is only one store around here that sells "no ethenol fuel " and the people using it seem to be getting longer usage out of the injectors , fuel filters , fuel pumps and stuff like that .

[Qingdao]

i work at autozone and have been in retail auto parts biz since 99 . I know here within the past year or so we have seen a considerable increase in fuel related problems due to the increased usage of ethenol blended fuels . there is only one store around here that sells "no ethenol fuel " and the people using it seem to be getting longer usage out of the injectors , fuel filters , fuel pumps and stuff like that .

Exon Mobil and Sonoco are fighting the good fight.

And there will always be Sea Foam for problems.

[suprf1y]

Exactly what I was talking about.
Its ethanol. not methanol, and its not bad for the fuel system.
In fact, its put in there as part of a cleaning protocol.
If your customers are having problems, its something else.
The ethanol has been in the gas for 10 yrs, or more, not in the last year.
GM recommended that I use top tier fuel (10% ethanol) to prevent any injector, or fuel system problems.

[bechandler07]

i agree on the ethonal being in the fuel for around 10 years or so . but i will say it has only been within the past few years that everyone has gone to it . used to only a handful of companies carried it . now everyone has it . these new cars coming out is designed to run on e85 and more blended fuels but most of my customers own cars from the 80's and early 90's . those are the ones having the most problems . just like running my 63 falcon on unleaded gas sure it ran but it ran like crap until i used a lead substitute . my 06 hi-bird is supposed to run on 87 octane from what my book says . it does ok but runs alot better on the more expensive stuff . also my 02 ford taurus does 400 miles on 87 octane " blended fuel " but almost 500 on the pure gas without it and it has 187,000 miles on it

[Qingdao]

Exactly what I was talking about.
Its ethanol. not methanol, and its not bad for the fuel system.
In fact, its put in there as part of a cleaning protocol.
If your customers are having problems, its something else.
The ethanol has been in the gas for 10 yrs, or more, not in the last year.
GM recommended that I use top tier fuel (10% ethanol) to prevent any injector, or fuel system problems.

No, Its not a cleaning product its corn. Really its an alcohol and non-alcohol motors shouldn't run alcohol.

And yes I live in the South. And yes 10% ethanol is under a couple of years old. I had never heard of it untill two or so years ago when it cloged the junks out of my GS.

Perhaps it is recomended in NEW GM vehicals, but for everyone else IT WILL CLOG YOUR S*(%.

[katoranger]

In the midwest we have been using ethanol for years already. There regular was usually just straight gas and mid-grade had 10% ethanol. It was clearly labeled on the pump.

I have actually run about half a tank of E85 in one of my old jeeps. I guess that would make about an E40 or so. Ran just fine, but would be better if tuned to run on it.

I don't think with 10% anything needs to be done to compensate.

Ethanol does have cleaning properties which in turn is what causes the filters and carbs to clog. It loosens all the buildup of junk on the fuel lines/gas tanks. and lets it flow into the rest of the fuel sytem.

When you drive past the ethanol plant it smells like toast too. :D

[suprf1y]

No, Its not a cleaning product its corn. Really its an alcohol and non-alcohol motors shouldn't run alcohol.

And yes I live in the South. And yes 10% ethanol is under a couple of years old. I had never heard of it untill two or so years ago when it cloged the junks out of my GS.

Perhaps it is recomended in NEW GM vehicals, but for everyone else IT WILL CLOG YOUR S*(%.

Thats exactly the attitude I was talking about.
So many people hate it for no reason at all.
Its kind of strange, I've been a mechanic for over 30 yrs, and never once seen an ethanol related problem of any kind, on any vehicle.

[bechandler07]

this whole discussion has really derailed lol . i was simply asking about the bikes lol . i usually run the 10 % stuff in my bike because it is about 5 cent per gallon cheaper and i have to pinch pennies anyway i can . i will say i have had to put 2 new fuel filters on my bike since it was new but 1 doesnt count because the bike sat for an entire year . it runs ok but it really does seem to need a little extra kick in the butt even though the book says it will run fine on 87

[bechandler07]

i have been turning wrenches for almost 20 so i know what you are talking about . I decided to get out of the shops full time and go into retail auto parts full time and turn wrenches part time . ( at least i can enjoy more a/c lol ) . most of my customers with the problems are the ones with older vehicles especially the ones built before ethenol was added to fuel . my main question related to these bikes because they are designed from engines, carbs and driveline that dates to the 80's

[Qingdao]

...So many people hate it for no reason at all...

No, I got a reason both Suzuki motors I have owned did not run on Ethanol. My GEO (Suzuki Swift) would cut at about 3000rpms (GEOs don't have tacs so I am guessing), and my GS wouldn't run AT ALL on 93 octane ethanol. Also, a Mitsubishi Mirage I work on runs ruff on it.

I haven't had a problem with my MX-3, but that is a lot bigger motor than the GEO or the GS. So I guess the bigger or newer motors don't care.


On a side note the China-bike doesn't mind. I do, however, run a shit ton of cleaner in it.

[suprf1y]

...So many people hate it for no reason at all...

No, I got a reason both Suzuki motors I have owned did not run on Ethanol. My GEO (Suzuki Swift) would cut at about 3000rpms (GEOs don't have tacs so I am guessing), and my GS wouldn't run AT ALL on 93 octane ethanol. Also, a Mitsubishi Mirage I work on runs ruff on it.

I haven't had a problem with my MX-3, but that is a lot bigger motor than the GEO or the GS. So I guess the bigger or newer motors don't care

Very funny.
I am the largest supplier, and manufacturer of Suzuki (car) performance parts in N.America, and the largest manufacturer of 3cyl Suzuki (Metro) performance parts in the world.
I have owned, and raced 3, and 4 cyl Suzuki cars for years.
My 3 cyl rally car ran 10%, 25%, 50%, and 100% ethanol without a single issue, as did my 3 cyl land speed race car, with turbo, and ethanol injection, not to mention my street cars.
I suggest you have another problem NOT ethanol related.

[bechandler07]

i guess this discussion is like everything else , everyone has their own opinion on the subject . also different people have different results . me myself i havent used pure gas in my bike yet , just my taurus and will use it in my duster .

[250rider]

Ethanol destroys any rubber components in your fuel system and causes other problems as well.

All of the Dallas car dealers have to replace, repair or overhaul around 15 engines a month because of it.

Running Super unleaded will prevent these problems from occuring to you. Its only on the cheaper grades and brands do they put in that crappy ethanol.

Anyone notice Obama is pushing for more use of this stuff? He probably has a brother in law in the car repair business..

Ethanol?? just say NO!

[suprf1y]

Thank you for helping me prove my theory.
What a bunch of bull--- :roll:

Edit: Watch the language - Frostbite

[Jim]

Ok, let's try and keep things civilized please... Everyone is entitled to their opinion, or experience... If we need to keep arguing this subject please refrain from personal attacks and so on, and let's get some facts put down here.

Thanks. :)

[warrior91]

I've moved this to misc since it doesn't specifically apply to dual sports...

I haven't even seen an ethanol blend available in my area, I did however see it on my trip to Saskatchewan. The bike seems to run fine on regular gas. I'm not very educated on the subject of fuel / alternative fuels though.

Mohawk has been "up to"8-10% eth . for a long time(15- 20 years)
NOTE-Apparentley 5% water is acceptable here as well...???

[TurboT]

Very funny.
I am the largest supplier, and manufacturer of Suzuki (car) performance parts in N.America, and the largest manufacturer of 3cyl Suzuki (Metro) performance parts in the world.
I have owned, and raced 3, and 4 cyl Suzuki cars for years.
My 3 cyl rally car ran 10%, 25%, 50%, and 100% ethanol without a single issue, as did my 3 cyl land speed race car, with turbo, and ethanol injection, not to mention my street cars.
I suggest you have another problem NOT ethanol related.

A wee off topic but I had no idea they made 3 cyl Suzuki performance parts! I've rebuilt so many of those motors I can disassemble and re-assemble them with my eyes closed. Oh the good old days.

As for the ethanol discussion, it's been around for a long time and I've never heard of any problems associated with it. I'm sure if it was proven a problem some lawyer happy guy would've sued Mohawk in Canada, class action style by now. I'm sure you'd be fine to run it in your bike, these motors don't look too 'high tech' to me.

[Jim]

I've moved this to misc since it doesn't specifically apply to dual sports...

I haven't even seen an ethanol blend available in my area, I did however see it on my trip to Saskatchewan. The bike seems to run fine on regular gas. I'm not very educated on the subject of fuel / alternative fuels though.

Mohawk has been "up to"8-10% eth . for a long time(15- 20 years)
NOTE-Apparentley 5% water is acceptable here as well...???

Oh ok, I will just admit here I don't know know much about various fuels and just put whatever is in the pump, into the tank. ;)

[Alaskan-Dad]

The 10% ethanol was sold for about 30 yrs at a gas station in Sedro Wooley Washington and I always bought it as it was a handy place for me to fuel up. After I had been going there for years I went to a local chainsaw shop and the owner there tried to convince me and all his other customers that it destroyed saw motors.
His reasoning was 2 stroke oil could not mix with the ethanol, well I had been using it for years and was not so easy to convince that it caused any problems, The bottom line is I ran hundreds of gallons through my 2100 Husky chain saw and never had any seizures.
Another rumor was that the gas stations like the ethanol blend as they could water it down because the ethanol would absorb water. I don't know if there is any truth to that rumor.
My cars and trucks ran fine on 10% etanol and when I had my 67 Mustang with a 289 with 12 and a 1/2 to 1 pistons it was one of the best fuels for it, other than Union 76's premium leaded gas (ah the good old days).
So my point is that it's more about personal choice than anything else, thats my humble opinion on the subject.
One other point I will add is cheap brand gas is quite often old fuel refined in a major brands refinery that did not sale so they discount the price and sell it to other distributors. I learned about that when I was a welder doing maintenance in the refinery's. When I have fuel injection I run supreme name brand gas, supreme has more cleaners added to the gas.
Boy lots of typing, but mostly opinion though!
And your experiences might differ for any number of reasons.
Oh and do not buy gas when there is a tanker filling the stations gas tanks as it sirs up all the water and dirt that is in the tanks!
Good luck,
ride and have fun!

[lego1970]

In the midwest they have been selling 10% ethanol for years. I run it on old vehicles, new vehicles, lawn mowers, chainsaws, weedeaters, generators, etc, etc. I'm sure on your china bike you could prove a difference on a dyno or the 1/4 mile, but the difference is so slight you could never feel it at the seat of your pants. The only time you might notice a change in the vehicle is if it's always ran on 100% petro then you switched to 10% ethanol. The only thing you would come across is that it would very slowly clean out the tank and lines and you maybe would have to clean the fuel filters a little more often until the old varnishes have been cleaned as much as 10% alcohol will clean. Like I said it's been used for years in the midwest and hundreds of carb run motors like weedeaters, lawn mowers, dirtbikes, etc have done just fine. While not a 100% sure, I would be willing to bet that your chinabike will run fine and shouldn't have any long term issues.

[Reveeen]

Almost universally 0 ethanol here (Canada east), but when I get out, to say, Upper Canada, I have tried the 10% in my trusty Subaru. It didn't care, but it sure seemed to go through it quick, meaning: my mileage went in the crapper. At least the 10% (if not a bit more).

[bechandler07]

i will say one thing . the discussion also included 2 stroke chain saws . STABIL has come out with an ethenol treatment for 2 stroke engines so they will run on ethenol . it is mainly a marine application but it says it can be used in any 2 stroke engine . 1 of the main things it does is it prevents corrosion from ethenol induced water attraction

[suprf1y]

The main thing it does, is help separate you from your money.

[SpudRider]

I usually buy the cheapest gasoline I can find. I have used 10% ethanol in my automobile as well as my Zongshen Sierra 200GY-2 motorcycle. Personally, I have never noticed any problems resulting from the use of ethanol.

Spud :)

[katoranger]

Like mentioned by another poster too. We have had ethanol in the midwest for at least the past fifteen years. I used all the time since it was usually cheaper than regular. This one in all vehicles including lawnmowers/chainsaws/trimmers/snowmobiles/atvs everything.

In MN all fuels need to contain a certain amount of ethanol or biodiesel now according to state law.

Allen

[frostbite]

I think there are 2 separate issues here. Fuel quality and ethanol.

I spoke to a gent at a local garage recently and we specifically talked fuel quality. When he graduated from high school (mid-70's) he went to work for the garage at which he is still employed some 30 years later. He spent his first 6 months doing nothing but cleaning carb's. Fuel quality was bad then, but has improved substantially since. Most of the fuel provided around here is from a local refinery (http://www.irvingoil.com) that has received several awards for quality. I see a noticeable difference in my Explorer when running Irving fuel vs Esso (Exxon). Also, if I slack and don't change out my gas in the bikes for the winter I don't have any fuel problems come Spring.

I'm not saying ethanol helps/hinders. I just think that you can get bad gas regardless if it does/does not contain ethanol.

[Qingdao]

I do know what runs REALLY clean. Leaded gas. look at the exhaust on a car that only gets leaded gas, and you will know what I am talking about.

[Cal25]

You guys are lucky. You have so many choices. I only have 3 choices of gas where I live. 1. Expensive 2. More Expensive. and 3. Even More Expensive.
And according to the stickers on the pumps, it all contains 10% ethanol.

[SpudRider]

You guys are lucky. You have so many choices. I only have 3 choices of gas where I live. 1. Expensive 2. More Expensive. and 3. Even More Expensive.
And according to the stickers on the pumps, it all contains 10% ethanol.
Do you live in The People's Republic of Kalifornia? ;)

Spud :)

[Cal25]

You guys are lucky. You have so many choices. I only have 3 choices of gas where I live. 1. Expensive 2. More Expensive. and 3. Even More Expensive.
And according to the stickers on the pumps, it all contains 10% ethanol.
Do you live in The People's Republic of Kalifornia? ;)

Spud :)

Nope. Texas. Luckily it not as bad as Kalifornia yet :D

[SpudRider]

You guys are lucky. You have so many choices. I only have 3 choices of gas where I live. 1. Expensive 2. More Expensive. and 3. Even More Expensive.
And according to the stickers on the pumps, it all contains 10% ethanol.
Do you live in The People's Republic of Kalifornia? ;)

Spud :)

Nope. Texas. Luckily it not as bad as Kalifornia yet :D
My goodness, Cal! Don't they drill for oil in Texas? 8O

Spud :)

[Jim]

Sounds like the same options we have, though I never read any stickers on the pump...

[mrhyak]

Check the link..

http://www.geocities.com/bkkriders/gasohol.html

[suprf1y]

4. Reported experience

Honda VFR 750
(Carburetor) Stay away from mixed petrol!! I got a tankful of what i can only guess was mixed 95, and the bike ran like shit, I eventually siphoned out the remaining 12 litres and refilled somewhere else, it took a days running to clear it out and get the bike back to normal. Open the throttle and the bike just hesitates as it tries to accelerate.


Translation.
I have no idea what I put in my tank, but I will blame ethanol, becasue I can't think of anything else to blame.
Sure, credible site
More ethanol hysteria :roll: