Cash for Clunkers makes me sick.

[katoranger]

I know alot of people who could have used this vehicle to help their families. How is it so green to waste a perfectly good piece of transportation?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kzPA9U4A8o

[TurboT]

I felt oddly disturbed watching that.

It is one thing to wreck and squish a dead vehicle, but drainig the oil from a perfectly rebuildable 350 to destroy it is not very green.

This is all just our consumerism economy at work, turn in something working in the name of 'recycling' for something newer which has been made of only 10% recyclables.

[katoranger]

If it was a cavalier I would just have alittle indigestion, but that truck was nice.

What makes it even worse is that the government also spent $4500 of our tax dollars so that they could destroy it.

[TurboT]

Well they might get $500 back in scrap metal weight. :)

I don't understand why they wouldn't pull the motor and tranny, rebuild it and sell for profit. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

Just trying other ways to sell more new cars.

[katoranger]

Our current government doesn't have any sense.

Alot of the "clunkers" are nicer and more effiecient than what I drive. They should be trading the nice ones for almost dead ones. At least two people would benefit then.

Allen

[Reveeen]

How is it so green

When "big brother" tells you something is "green" it doesn't necessarily make it so.

Here we have a thing called a "blue box". On garbage day you put it out with your garbage with "recyclables" in it. The part "they" forget to tell you is: each blue box you see curbside, on garbage day, operates at a $45 per unit deficit. In 2006 there were 12,435,520 households in Canada X45, or it cost $559,598,400 to collect these blue boxes, and still OVER 80% of what was collected ended up in the land fill.

All I can figure is: "green" is a club that you may, or may not belong to, if you belong it's only purpose is to make you feel that you are doing your part, when in fact you are doing nothing.

[phil]

lets take a look at the real bad side the engines are destroyed using what i think is silicon carbide and the car is then crushed (if crushing i required i dont know but lets assume) that means that those of us who cannot or will not give our cars away and gain a payment can no longer keep or cars running if you look at the requirements i would guess few get the 4500 but some adjusted rebate this is really sad but so goes the path of big goverment.......but then what do we expect to get when we elect someone whos always been rich, never had a real blue collar job or any job to help "the workers"

[Reveeen]

when we elect someone

Traditionally those we elect have, and never will, do a day's work in their lives.

Though I do admit, it takes a skill I don't have, I do not find myself capable of sitting behind a desk, for hours at a time, writing things on pieces of paper, then throwing the paper out.

[katoranger]

I think the number I heard was 22,700 cars had been turned in. So about $123 million.

The other gotcha. In the paperwork the buyer signs it says that if the government runs out of money before the program ends the buyer could end up owing the $4500 rebate amount.

So we got people who probably can't afford the payment/insurance/license on the new car trading in a perfectly good ride, just so the government can swipe another $4500 from their pocket and they most likely defaulting on the loan and having no car. The they file bankruptcy.

I will be happy driving my $750 truck.

[TeamCheap]

The other gotcha. In the paperwork the buyer signs it says that if the government runs out of money before the program ends the buyer could end up owing the $4500 rebate amount.
Thats a lot like a paramid scheme in that the last ones in are the losers......Hmmm.
Cash for klunkers is about the only thing I have seen that has actually put money into the economy but I'd prefer that it never happened in the first place.

The whole GREEN movement is a big huge LIE.
The more I see and hear about it the more I think there are just people.....well leeches that have to come up with something, anything to fulfill their grant money so they come up with the most absurd GREEN reports.(just my gut feeling)

There are things we can and should do to help with resource management and waste control but most of the GREEN movement stuff is just absurd.

[katoranger]

I recycle alot of cars, bikes, mowers all the time. Most of the parts get reused to keep others going and whats left goes for proper metal recycling. Very little goes to the dump.

Is that considered GREEN? Its funny how you need to buy NEW to be green instead of just using what you have.

Well my free saved from the landfill household sure is nice. I try to buy used or use things others don't want before buying new.

[dsrt4]

Half the Videos on YouTube show cars with the anti-freeze flowing out from under the car or truck and right onto the ground or into the grass.


At the same time you see the guys running the Piss out of them with the sand/silica in it blowing a shit ton of HEAVY metals in the air.

Tell me How is this crap good for the environment?

It isn't............

[AZ200cc]

I actually sent a letter to Mr Obama two days ago saying a lot of this, I asked why do they not save some of the nicer newer vehicles and trade them to people with older cars that do not qualify for the the program. All of the cars that are 1983 and older. That would get the worst offenders off the road and give the folks a better safer vehicle. Some of those cars being destroyed are nicer than what I see smoking down the road on a daily basis. And paying that much for it the dang thing if good enough should be used. Or maybe even sell them in Mexico and recoup some of our losses. SIGH none of these morons in office our worth the poweder to blow them to &^%$

[TurboT]

Azz I appreciate you took the time to send a letter to the Pres!

My problem is do you think these letters go anywhere anymore?

Your pres is too busy drinking beers with cops and professors who can't get along to read your letters about something serious.

It's a real shame. We here in Canada love to say, "Write a letter!" ..but where does it go? Some junior staffer shrugs and files it.

[AZ200cc]

I have to try, Sitting on my couch screaming at the tv does nothing. Maybe if enough letters suggesting this get there they might wise up. Who knows if we all think like this I am sure millions of others do also. We can only see. The hard part is actually getting washington to think.

[Reveeen]

As far as I am concerned the "green thing" is a simple case of mis-direction. If you spend enough time, and effort, promoting the crap out of something, the IMPORTANT stuff gets missed. NO WHERE do I hear anything about food, and water, quality, never mind availability.

Never mind this "global warming BS", the lack of clean water, and quality food to eat, is going to "get us" far, far, sooner than anything supposedly "fixed" by these half-assed attempts at being "green".

[suprf1y]

It's a real shame. We here in Canada love to say, "Write a letter!" ..but where does it go? Some junior staffer shrugs and files it.


I wrote a letter to a government department a few years back.
Not only did they acknowledge my letter with a follow up letter, but they phoned me as well.
Sometimes they do pay attention.

CFC is nothing more than an economic stimulus plan. Call your leaders what you want, but I call them smart. Nothing makes for strong popularity better than a good economy.

[AZ200cc]

I will see if I get a reply, He seems to be an open President. This Green movement is simply a fad, Companies now put a sticker on every product claiming green :roll: , But never show proof. It's just like the now repaired hole in the ozone, By fixing that we caused a worse problem. It's usually better for the world if people are not involved. :lol: People like us who fix things and reuse things were green before our time.....Now who is a backwards redneck :lol: ?

[FastDoc]

Makes me sick and angry. How much energy is put into creating one of these 'clunkers' in the first place compared to how much it is supposed to save my crushing it? Idiots can't (won't) do the math in Congress. Plus, the tax burden on the working people of this country. Green indeed. It's brownw. Like excrement.

[FastDoc]

As far as I am concerned the "green thing" is a simple case of mis-direction. If you spend enough time, and effort, promoting the crap out of something, the IMPORTANT stuff gets missed. NO WHERE do I hear anything about food, and water, quality, never mind availability.

Never mind this "global warming BS", the lack of clean water, and quality food to eat, is going to "get us" far, far, sooner than anything supposedly "fixed" by these half-assed attempts at being "green".

Wasn't it Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi propagandist who said "If you tell people a lie long enough they will believe it"?

[rich_e]

I have to agree that this is not a "green" program. It been billed that way, but we all know it is just an extension of the stimulus plan to help bailout auto manufactures. They should have limited it Chrysler and GM, since the government owns large stakes in both now. All that being said, I just couldn't standby without getting my free hand out!

I traded a 1995 Pathfinder for a 2009 Chevy Colbalt. Hey, at least I bought a Chevy! In addition to the CARS allowance ($4500), I received the supplier price and another $3500 in factory rebates and discounts. Less than 10K for new ride is not a bad deal. And I think I get to take the sales tax off my income tax this year, so that's another $800.

The Pathfinder had some body damage, but it was drivable (bearly). I paid about $300 for it two years ago.

[Reveeen]

I traded a 1995 Pathfinder for a 2009 Chevy Colbalt.

I paid about $300 for it two years ago.

So, your cost of ownership, for a 14 year old Pathfinder, was $150 a year, though you say it was drivable (barely).

Give your Cobalt 14 years and see what is left of it. (I'm guessing not mucking futch)

N. American automakers have dropped the ball, building cars no one wants, relying on gas guzzling trucks/SUVs to keep their a55es out of the fire.

[kmoore]

ok let me see if i got this right the gov'ment is doling out hand over fist up to $4500 for old cars if traded in on new cars that get better gas mileage through the cash rebate allowance program better known as c.r.a.p.

so now if your car gets less than 18 mpg you can trade in your paid off and get up to $4500 off new car that gets at least 28 mpg and get a new $400 a month payment with a chance to have to payback the $4500 if the gov'ment decides it ran out of money... thats IF you can get financing which is like pulling teeth these days.....

so is that the jist of it...

[katoranger]

ok let me see if i got this right the gov'ment is doling out hand over fist up to $4500 for old cars if traded in on new cars that get better gas mileage through the cash rebate allowance program better known as c.r.a.p.

so now if your car gets less than 18 mpg you can trade in your paid off and get up to $4500 off new car that gets at least 28 mpg and get a new $400 a month payment with a chance to have to payback the $4500 if the gov'ment decides it ran out of money... thats IF you can get financing which is like pulling teeth these days.....

so is that the jist of it...

Thats about it.

A few people will benefit from this, but I think alot are going to taken.

[TeamCheap]

I like my gas guzzling american SUV, it rides great, tows what we need to tow and if you drift it over into a lane with one of those tiny cars in it you can watch them squirm and almost pee themselves(priceless).

[suprf1y]

Give your Cobalt 14 years and see what is left of it. (I'm guessing not mucking futch)

N. American automakers have dropped the ball, building cars no one wants, relying on gas guzzling trucks/SUVs to keep their a55es out of the fire.

Nonsense.
I hear this BS all the time, and it's just that. BS.
If no one wants them, then how is it keeping their asses out of the fire?
Americans buy big, gas guzzling vehicles, thats why the Japanese are building them now, too. Seen an Avalon, Camry, or Toyota truck lately?
They build what sells, and they still outsell the Japanese here.
GM vehicles get excellent fuel mileage, often at the top, if not the best in class.
My wife's (now my son's) 99 Z24 with 250k has had routine maintenance, and nothing more, in the 10 yrs that we've owned it. I haven't replaced as much as a light bulb in that car. She now drives a Cobalt, and loves it.
If you want to mouth off about something, know the facts.

[TurboT]

Give your Cobalt 14 years and see what is left of it. (I'm guessing not mucking futch)

N. American automakers have dropped the ball, building cars no one wants, relying on gas guzzling trucks/SUVs to keep their a55es out of the fire.

Nonsense.
I hear this BS all the time, and it's just that. BS.
If no one wants them, then how is it keeping their asses out of the fire?
Americans buy big, gas guzzling vehicles, thats why the Japanese are building them now, too. Seen an Avalon, Camry, or Toyota truck lately?
They build what sells, and they still outsell the Japanese here.
GM vehicles get excellent fuel mileage, often at the top, if not the best in class.
My wife's (now my son's) 99 Z24 with 250k has had routine maintenance, and nothing more, in the 10 yrs that we've owned it. I haven't replaced as much as a light bulb in that car. She now drives a Cobalt, and loves it.
If you want to mouth off about something, know the facts.

Just let me make some popcorn before the GM versus Import scrap starts. Then I will go shine my Dodge in happiness. :)

[AZ200cc]

Actually the new gm cars are quite good, Sadly they did not pull there heads out of there A#$es soon enough. I sell parts and I know what I sell them for, I sell to shops and I know what they work on the most. The vehicle I would avoid the most right now is anything JEEP. But either way the GOVT is till thinking backwards, They're saving the rich and starving the poor. I thought democrats were supposed to be the other way around.

[Jim]

The video does not really go all the way to the end does it. When it is done at the scrap yard, what then? Most likely (maybe not anymore), it is trucked around and shipped off to China. How "green" are all the factors AFTER the scrap yard? New vehicles do apparently make less pollution but that isn't the only factor in the equation is it?

About recycling (blue bins), Penn & Teller did an episode of "BullShit" on it, essentially I think they say you probably should feel good about recycling aluminum cans, but that's about it. I think in BC, and I could very well be wrong, that our recycling is shipped off the China.

On the subject of letter writing, I did write emails to our transportation minister, and did receive personalized answers, not specifically from the minister mind you, but it was during an election.

[Reveeen]

How in the F**k can it be even remotely "green" to throw 2+ tons of stuff away just to replace it with 2+ tons of newly manufactured stuff? The only "green" I see is flowing from your wallet to another wallet belonging to someone else.

As a licensed mechanic ("A" "C" "M" and "H"), who has worked in the trade both here, and Europe, you will have to take it on trust, that we are being sold disposable vehicles, with a very limited "practical life expectancy".

[kmoore]

[/quote]

Just let me make some popcorn before the GM versus Import scrap starts. Then I will go shine my Dodge in happiness. :)[/quote]


just pull that dodge next to my lincoln and shine it while your at it...

[Qingdao]

All I know is that if I see an MX-3 in a "to be crushed" pile. I am going to break down all the fences and that MX will get chained to my freinds Chevy and hauled to the back of my house. :lol:

But it is a shame. I don't write the president (I HATE FEDERAL TERORIST). I write my congressmen and governer.

[suprf1y]

As a licensed mechanic ("A" "C" "M" and "H"), who has worked in the trade both here, and Europe, you will have to take it on trust, that we are being sold disposable vehicles, with a very limited "practical life expectancy".

How that is relevant, I don't know, but the reality is, cars have never been so well built as they are today.
They don't rust away in 5 years, 100,000-200,000 + miles on the odo is routine, and they are more reliable, and long lasting than ever.

[TurboT]

I would weigh in here and say while I'm not sure they are not built to last, but when they fail, they want them scrapped and not fixed.

I spent 13 years rebuilding car motors, and have seen the design changes right from the 60's style motors through to 2003. From about 1998 on the motors in all vehicles have become so labour intensive to rebuild and re and re, it is not worth it for the consumer to invest the money. When you get told your 5.4 Triton V8 Ford is going to be a $6000 rebuild, and another $4000 to remove and reinstall because the damn cab needs to come off the truck to get it in and out, Mr. consumer goes, "Woah, I'll just finance a new one.."

While they still may get you 200,000+ miles, there just isn't any going down to the engine or tranny shop and getting a $800 rebuild anymore.

There isn't enough 4.3, 302's, 305's, 350's and 454's around anymore to just strip down, put rings, pistons and bearings in them and let them go another 300,000. The car manufacturers, whether by design to turn over new vehicles, or by the need to become 'greener' with fuel efficiency and emmissions have ruined all hope of that.

It should be pointed out as well, that almost everything we 'threw out' in terms of unusable parts inside a motor were always recycled and could be in any types of new metal products today, yet there were never any 'green' incentives for us. Just a lot of demanding to know where the used oil and chemicals were going.. Strange world.

[Qingdao]

There isn't enough 4.3, 302's, 305's, 350's and 454's around anymore to just strip down, put rings, pistons and bearings in them and let them go another 300,000. The car manufacturers, whether by design to turn over new vehicles, or by the need to become 'greener' with fuel efficiency and emmissions have ruined all hope of that.


Here here! :D

I still don't know what is so wrong with the simplicity of L heads, push rods, carburation, and a good old fashioned small block. If you are just going to work why make it super complicated and prone to breakage? Save fuel injection, ECMs, MAFs, and all that junk for the track. Most people don't need to be going that fast anyway.

[TurboT]

There isn't enough 4.3, 302's, 305's, 350's and 454's around anymore to just strip down, put rings, pistons and bearings in them and let them go another 300,000. The car manufacturers, whether by design to turn over new vehicles, or by the need to become 'greener' with fuel efficiency and emmissions have ruined all hope of that.


Here here! :D

I still don't know what is so wrong with the simplicity of L heads, push rods, carburation, and a good old fashioned small block. If you are just going to work why make it super complicated and prone to breakage? Save fuel injection, ECMs, MAFs, and all that junk for the track. Most people don't need to be going that fast anyway.

Well again, it is an emissions issue. All the electronic gizmo's and new technology in theory, burn cleaner and more economically. I take my Hemi Dodge for example. I had looked at a 2002 model, but it was the 5.9L tried, tested and true small block Dodge 360. Granted it was newer with fuel injection, but it still made 260hp at the wheels and got 10mpg.

The Hemi which came out in 2003 on the other hand, makes 345 HP and gets 12mpg. (Little better if you're easy on it) It's a bloody nightmare I am sure to rebuild, and probably worth more than what I paid for the truck if it needed to be done, but it's winning the HP/Economy/Emissions war which our policticans have enacted upon us.

It's the number one reason the cars of today are complicated, plus they want you to buy new ones in 5-10 years and not rebuild your old ones. Keep factories humming, robots and some people, working.

[AZ200cc]

Yup, Cars today are meant to last for 200,000 miles and that's it. Sure plenty last longer but that is not what the dealers and auto makers really want You to do. They want You to trade it in for a new one. Or else why would they be building the dang things every year anyways :lol:

[dsrt4]

The Hemi which came out in 2003 on the other hand, makes 345 HP and gets 12mpg. (Little better if you're easy on it) It's a bloody nightmare I am sure to rebuild, and probably worth more than what I paid for the truck if it needed to be done, but it's winning the HP/Economy/Emissions war which our policticans have enacted upon us.

.


On that note.......... My 2009 Dodge Ram with the Hemi is 390 HP and has 401 lbs of tourqe. It makes all this while getting 20+ mpg on the HWY.. They are getting better.

[lego1970]

That video was sickening. That truck looked like a good work truck. To purposely seize the engine, let antifreeze and gas drip run into the ground, not even take the tires off, etc, etc, etc. was about as anti-green as you can get.

[katoranger]

At least its over.

[TurboT]

At least its over.

The video or the program is over??

[katoranger]

program is. They spent all our money.

[warrior91]

Does it not make sense that the gov't is trying to sell more of IT'S cars....They want you to get rid of the older cars so the Gov't backed corps can sell you new ones that will not last as long...Gov't. is just looking after it's own "business".

I cannot justify getting rid of a good running vehicle, between the initial manufacture and then the premature recycling , I would think a lot more polution and environmental damage could result... smelting, resmelting, new iron, more plastic, more wire, more expensive electronics that fail to work in +40 or - 40 degrees.... Never mind the financing money...buying a new car keeps a salesman working, the owner of the dealership, the banker doing your paper work, the owner of the bank earning profit from your purchase, the call centre employee asking for the next payment, vehicle testers, parts manufactures, auto workers, and fat cats owning the factory... and finally tax money and increase in insurance cost...MUCH cheaper and greener...To Who?
Disposing of vehicles that 10% people think are old... while they are better than what 90% of us own...
Just what we need instead of regular maintenance on good running used vehicles...and available used parts to keep them running well.
Yay Greenies

[TeamCheap]

Electric cars are the way to go ..........wait ....hold it...... this just in......
they now realize that our grid can not support all the plannned electric cars they want to sell us. :roll:

What ticks me off the most about our so-called leaders is when their pie-in-the-sky plans/dreams/schemes fail they just throw their hands up, blame the guy next to them and walk away leaving the mess for others to clean up and then they have the nerve to come back and tell them how to clean it up.

Cash for clunkers was so well run and went so smoothly that I welcome the government taking over our healthcare and whatever else they want to run.........
NOT

[AZ200cc]

Paying four grand for nothing made me angry, To take it and just destroy it..No parts no nothing. It was a lose lose for the American Taxpayer. They say it worked well....Right...A lot of folks who can get free money, will. A nation of hands put far out waiting to have something put in it. But now instead of owning a car they arepaying on one....WHo really won? The banks got more loans the dealers sold more cars. So the already rich won...Again.

[warrior91]

Electric cars are the way to go ..........wait ....hold it...... this just in......
they now realize that our grid can not support all the plannned electric cars they want to sell us. :roll:

What ticks me off the most about our so-called leaders is when their pie-in-the-sky plans/dreams/schemes fail they just throw their hands up, blame the guy next to them and walk away leaving the mess for others to clean up and then they have the nerve to come back and tell them how to clean it up.

Cash for clunkers was so well run and went so smoothly that I welcome the government taking over our healthcare and whatever else they want to run.........
NOT

You said it...I remember many brown outs reported on the news for the last 20 years. I guess we should build some more coal power plants...
:?: :roll:

[katoranger]

Proud to drive my clunkers. They are mine.

I don't fault someone for taking advantage and trading in a car that was about dead, but I couldn't do it myself and think of the amount of INCREASED costs involved with owning a new car.

Also I believe that the dealerships are still waiting to be paid by Barack.

[TeamCheap]

Well my wifes current car is a bit rough but thats because she likes to rub it against things. :lol:
It's a 2000 buick LeSabre that she got for free and overall its OK and we just put pads/rotors on the back.
I would like to have replaced it but saving only $3500-4500 and picking up a new car payment just wasnt going to happen.

Getting a new car while adding to the deficit and being a burden to other taxpayers just wouldnt make me feel good.

I heard that there may be a second round of cash for clunkers coming also :cry: or maybe it was cash for clunker appliances.

[katoranger]

My biggest problem with my old jeep is that is leaks alittle transmission fluid. I add a quart about every 1000 miles. So about $20 a year in transmission fluid.

The 2005 van has been the most trouble vehicle in the fleet.

[AZ200cc]

I also am happy to say that I don't owe anyone a single dime...My Subaru was paid off about two years ago and that dang car is bullet proof. My old chevy is a pain in the butt, However I've had it since I was a teenager....So I screwed it up a lot over the years :lol: I pay cash for everything except the Soobroo and am happy to do so.


Taxpayers pay twice...They pay for the program and than get payments on the car they trade in for.....Why do theynot see this?

[katoranger]

This is a pretty good video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hojvZ1oQ-EU

I borrowed this from the video.

Facts about Cash for Clunkers
-Hurts used auto dealers traffic, sales, and available inventory at the auctions.
-Clunkers are purchased by poor people and used auto dealers, but the government is destroying these vehicles.
-Gives an unfair advantage to New auto dealers who are seeing an increase in traffic. Even people who own clunkers that don't qualify are coming in to check for details of the program, increasing traffic.
-The program takes people who have a paid off vehicle and puts them into a newly financed vehicle or leased one.
-Uses our tax dollars to help a few and punish others.
-Increased our debt and the money supply (inflation)
-Creates temporary unsustainable relief for a few while causing permanent damage to others.
-Hurts Auto Mechanics that make a living working on older cars.


I don't really use mechanics, but I do buy alot of new and used parts keeping the local businesses supported.

The second to the last fact is the biggest reason why this program is a failure.

The guy that picked up a motorcycle I just sold was driving a new toyota tundra. Tradin in an old chevy truck. He probably could afford the new truck. Just that we all also own a portion of that truck.

Think I could get me share of use from it. 8O