Mini ATV front Suspension

[waynev]

Well i finally got some time to get to the shop today with my spare set of mini atv shocks that i won on the auction.
First step was to see if i could lighten up the spring rate a bit as the springs are very stiff on the front end of these little machines.
It was a bit tricky to compress the springs to get to that nut but the arbour press came in handy.......
http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu188/waynebrandy/100_1431.jpg
http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu188/waynebrandy/100_1430.jpg

Well that made it much easier, i used a big washer that i had cut out of 1/8" aluminum and then cut a slot up to the center, i then used a screwdriver to pry the spring back and inset that disc then the arbour press made easy work of compressing the spring so i could get my 17mm wrench on the nut and then used a 19mm to turn the end off.

I found these springs to have way too much preload on them and yeah don't worry about these shocks becuase they aren't, it is a shaft inside a tube and that's it, they work on spring only.

I ended up cutting 3/4" off the end ( the one with the tighter spring spacing ) and reassembling the shocks. Before i cut off the springs there was no way in hell i could move these shocks with my two hands pushing against each other, now after removing the 3/4" i can now compress the shocks with my hands 5/8" and my bathroom scale spring rate tester comfirmed this.
Before cutting, the stock shock took 95lbs to move 1/2" and 190lbs to move 1", after cutting the rate dropped to 60lb for the 1/2" mark and 120lbs for the 1" mark.

So far these results look promising and i'm hoping to get them installed this weekend.

I also reversed the direction of where the tight coils were from the way the shocks came, here a pic of the finished shocks and the washer i used to disassemble.

http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu188/waynebrandy/100_1429.jpg

I'll keep you posted on my results after mounting on the quad.

[TurboT]

Dude since I don't have a press like that in my back yard any tips? :P

[waynev]

Yep, a bigger washer than i used, a small tin can or something the fits nicely on the other end of the shock and 2 clamps to compress the spring.

[Weldangrind]

Or your friend's hydraulic press. :D

[waynev]

Or your friend's hydraulic press. :D

Yep, that will work too, a pint per press right?

[TurboT]

Or your friend's hydraulic press. :D

You got one of those in stock too?? :P

[Weldangrind]

In stock, ready to press. 8)

[TurboT]

In stock, ready to press. 8)

I find it amazing you have this type of thing, but also since I've seen your garage, more amazed you have somewhere to PUT it. :)

Need to do something with my Mini Beast front end. I pushed down on the bush gaurd today and the shocks don't move, the axle's and control arm bolt points do. Terrible. The front end on that thing has to be taking a BRUTAL beating on the smallest of bumps at speed.

[Weldangrind]

Bring the shocks over, and we'll see what kind of magic we can work.

[TurboT]

Bring the shocks over, and we'll see what kind of magic we can work.

I'll bring the whole thing over one day, when we get through the madness of other projects. I have a feeling it's not just the shocks, it's where they put them. They are too close to the middle of the quad, and not extended out enough towards the wheel, so the bumps get soaked into the weakest points before it gets to the shock.

Just my thoughts.. it's not a pressing issue I don't think this thing will be doing any heavy riding till next Spring: Other than perhaps me doing 'snow trials' in the street if we get any this year. :D

[PCD]

Nice waynev.

I have a spare set on the way as well and thats exactly what I'll be doing to them.

Pretty intersting about the "fake" shock, but it fits with the machine I suppose. For what it is, I guess springs are alright.

[Weldangrind]

I ended up cutting 3/4" off the end ( the one with the tighter spring spacing ) and reassembling the shocks. Before i cut off the springs there was no way in hell i could move these shocks with my two hands pushing against each other, now after removing the 3/4" i can now compress the shocks with my hands 5/8" and my bathroom scale spring rate tester comfirmed this.
Before cutting, the stock shock took 95lbs to move 1/2" and 190lbs to move 1", after cutting the rate dropped to 60lb for the 1/2" mark and 120lbs for the 1" mark.

Do you attribute the lower required force to cutting coils or flipping the springs? The flipped springs look to have transferred the tighter coils to the static end (if there is such a thing).

[PCD]

A progressive spring will still compress the "lighter" coils first (as intended) whether it is upside down or not.

Where mounting position matters is in high strung applications and thats mainly due to unsprung weight issues, however minor (thicker coil end is heavier than the thinner coil end) but this is meaningless for our application.

I'm not going to stress over this one too much since the shock is fake anyway, plus no matter how waynev measured the force required, he did a before and after using the same method and the results showed a milder spring rate.

[Weldangrind]

I'm not going to stress over this one too much since the shock is fake anyway, plus no matter how waynev measured the force required, he did a before and after using the same method and the results showed a milder spring rate.

Agreed. It was just an observation that the 'before' measurement had the coil in the conventional position, so I wondered if that was a factor.

What would be the point of flipping the coils then?

Waynev, did you place the scale on the press base to take measurements?

[PCD]

I'm not going to stress over this one too much since the shock is fake anyway, plus no matter how waynev measured the force required, he did a before and after using the same method and the results showed a milder spring rate.
What would be the point of flipping the coils then?

I dunno, except if it were me I would always think it was "upside down" if the thicker coils were at the top. It would bug me ;)

[waynev]

Yes W&G, i used the bathroom scale on the arbour press with a pc of 3/4" plywood on it and a tape measure standing up so i could compress the shocks while reading the tape measure to check travel and the scale for spring rate.

[jeffjr464]

i wonder if there is a shock the right size to bolt on instead of the springs

[PCD]

The mini 50cc ATV springs are NOT the same as the springs on my mini 110cc atv.
Isnt that sweet :evil: :evil:

In an earlier post in this thread I mentioned I ordered them.

So...first it was the single exhaust instead of dual...then the hubs were obviously different...then the dual exhaust which did not fit correctly and will take more modification, now the shocks are much different.

Eye to eye is the same, but spring diameter, coil diameter, spring length, and rod diameter are MUCH smaller than whats on the quad now.

If anyone "new" is reading this, you can go search my posts on the above items instead of me cluttering up the forums rehashing everything here.

Plain and simple this is not the same quad with just a bigger engine. Its a redesign and I dont give a flying tuck what John says, its a different quad.

Keep in mind he didnt even know they were coming with single exhaust instead of dual (like the old 50cc) until I told him and even then I had to send a pic.

The frame MUST be different or bigger which is why the mini ATV dual exhaust is such a pain to install and is not going to fit correctly. This is not like TurboT having to finesse the parts on but eventually they fit and it looks good...I have one side on OK and the other 3" out...and I had to bend the living daylights out of the headpipe to even get that.

I'll take pictures of the springs later today and update this post.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu164/petecd/100_0227.jpg

[TurboT]

Odd. I'm interested to see the pictures.

[waynev]

So they are different, are the new shocks on your 110 any softer than the one in your hand?, my son's 50cc is hard as a rock, i stil lhave to put the springs in that i cut down though, that should help.

[PCD]

I have to pull one of the stockers off first, but if the stockers are real shocks, then I'll cut them and reinstall. I'm not holding my breath.

If both sets are fake, and spring rates similar, then I'll probably put the smaller ones on as is. Maybe.

I can get the stockers to compress a little by leaning on the bars, but I can also get the new ones to compress about 1/2" by leaning on it "with gusto" so to speak.

I need to get one off the bike for a fair comparison.

EDIT: No time today, will try and get to it before the weekend is out. I think I have an open slot between 01:00AM and 03:00AM :)

[waynev]

Well with all this time off for the holidays it's given me time to do some work on my quads, finally got the cut-down-spring shocks on my sons 50cc GIO, before i could barely move the front end, like i mean about 1/4" with all my weight pushing on the front end, now with the cut down springs it now moves about 1-1/2" with my weight on it, still not too much but much better than before.

[Weldangrind]

All you did was cut down the coils to improve the spring rate? Did it lower the quad by much?

[waynev]

YES, at noted in my first post, cutting 3/4" off the more compressed coils on the one end did yeild a lower spring rate as tested on the scales, the quad sits no lower, but now has a bit of movement to it, before it was rock hard, the springs were very preloaded and cutting the 3/4" off released the preload tension and now the front end will move, not much ( 1-1/2" ) but much more than stock.

[waynev]

Ok quad is all together now, it seems the new front brake hubs only worked with the silver wheels i won off the auction, lucky i had them, so i can see how you had problems PCD, with the different bolt patterns and center hole size, i wonder if in years past they had different front hubs since the silver wheels i got fit the new ( might be old ) front drum brake hubs and also fits the back of my sons 50cc quad.

Anyways all is back together, but it now won't start, i blew a fuse, replaced it and noticed something is shorting when i hit the stater button, time to put the tools away and break out the meter.

Here's a few pics of the front end now and the quad with the silver wheels.

http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu188/waynebrandy/100_1457.jpg

http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu188/waynebrandy/100_1459.jpg


I also had time to put the Beast Performance shocks on my T1 as the stockers were also hard as rock, i needed to grind the top of the shocks a bit so i could bolt them in on the top, but other than that they easily fit and are 200% better than the stock shocks, which did not move at all.

http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu188/waynebrandy/100_1467.jpg

http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu188/waynebrandy/100_1468.jpg

[waynev]

Anyways all is back together, but it now won't start, i blew a fuse, replaced it and noticed something is shorting when i hit the stater button, time to put the tools away and break out the meter.



Ok, got it to fire today, turns out when i reinstalled the shock bolts i pinched the blue wire that went to the remote stop/start from the starter button hence the direct short when trying to start it.
I was also having problems starting it after washing, so i pulled every wiring plug apart and gave it a generous helping of di-electric grease, hope that helps.