Any Plumbers Out There!? HELP!

[2LZ]

Hi all.....
As I've posted in the past....I've been helping out our friend who's husband 'untimely' passed away two years ago, with the log house I've posted pics of....and after the 'big' repairs to bring it back into shape, obviously, it's also been one thing after another in other smaller areas.....such as this. I get the call..... 8O

"Bill! I pulled out the knob to fill the tub for my granddaughter....and when I pushed it in....it wont work right! When my son messed with it, it came all the way out! Water going everywhere! He got it back together but it's about 30% shower/70% tub!" :x :(

I said...."Don't mess with it. It's working. I'll check it out..." :roll:

So, I went back up last weekend. It's a Moen (Moentrol) valve, installed in about 1960. Brass. Nice piece of work to handle her horrible 'well water' after all there years. :D
I've been to all the major box stores in Sacramento.... nothing. :( I've been to the Moen website and they don't have this valve listed anymore. :x All I need to do is repair the simple crossover between shower and tub. :?

There's one old "Mom and Pop they got everything" plumbing store I'm checking out tomorrow. Fingers crossed.......
If any of you'z guy'z are plumbers and know what this is....please point me in the right direction!
I don't want to have to tear the wall out, unsweat the entire assembly and install a new one! After all I'm no contractor but....it's not like her husband left her Trump Plaza just to "Call the Man."

Here's the culprit....
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/2LZ_photos/CIMG5093.jpg

Here's the guts.....looks totally replaceable....if I can just find the parts.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/2LZ_photos/CIMG5097.jpg

Thanks for any input! :D

[Weldangrind]

I haven't worked on that specific valve, but I've serviced several like it. If you undo the gland nut around the stem, you'll likely find a gland nut packing inside that stops leakage out the front (probably in the form of a graphite cylinder). There will also likely be a milled section in the shaft that directs the water flow from the tub to the shower, and it will probably have an o-ring on it. Just undo the gland nut and take the parts to the Mom and Pop shop; they'll probably identify it and set you up.

If no joy, post more photos here. Good luck.

BTW, don't un-sweat pipes. Just cut 'em and try Shark Bites if it gets to that point. Much less stress.

[Cal25]

I have what appears to be the exact model in my home. Surprised it is not supported by the company. That was one of the reasons I chose it.

One thing that comes to mind, It might have been discontinued if it is older and does not blend the hot and cold water allowing hot water only and a scallding hazard.

[Cal25]

I bet a big plumbing supply place will have all the parts.

[Weldangrind]

Even if the mixing valve has been discontinued, the diverter valve will likely be the same as units manufactured since then.

[2LZ]

Thanks for the input, guys. I'm taking off work early today to try to chase this stuff down. The plumbing supply store I want to hit....I discovered after running back down the hill to town last Saturday.....ISN'T OPEN ON WEEKENDS! :evil:

Another option I thought of is if the diverter guts are no longer available, would it be possible to pull the guts, brass cap it off and then replace the tub spout with one that has a diverter in it???????

That has been one of the biggest problems with working on her place.....I can't disable anything and take it with me on a recon. She lives almost 2 hours away, out in the sticks, far from any store and odds are, I'm not coming back that day, so she'd be without whatever I disabled....water, this time. Not an option.
Thank God for digital cameras!

[Weldangrind]

You might have to get creative with the cap, but yeah, you could switch to a tub spigot diverter. Just be sure about what type and length is on there now, so you don't have any fitment issues. It will most likely spin onto 1/2" male NPT or slip onto 1/2" copper pipe with a setscrew; I hope it's the former. If necessary, you could easily sweat a 1/2" male nipple onto the pipe to change to the spin-on type.

If you choose to change the spigot, make sure that all of the operators know to run the water to temperature, shut it off, gently pull the diverter and then turn the water back on. I've probably changed more than 50 spigots where the knob has been pulled right out, because it's acting against the full volume and pressure of the fill spout. Mind you, I work with 3/4" stuff that has higher pressure, but still.

[2LZ]

Holy cow! How depressing! :(

I took off work early to go to "the plumbing store that's not open on weekends"...who's supposed to have everything..and from the SECOND I walked in...I went over Niagra Falls without even as much as a pickle barrell! 8O

It went like this:

Can I help you?
Yes! I brought these pics. I need to rebuild this diverter assembly.
Ohhhhhhhh.....that's not good. Not good at all. (Head shakin')
'Scuse me?
Wow...Hmmmmm.... (obviously, I wasn't the quick sale)
It's a diverter valve. Not a nuclear reactor.

He checks with another guy.....if they can find something, it's in a binder the thickness of Fastdocs college books.
He starts flipping pages. Completely uninterested....just burning clock.

Nope....hmmmm. Nope. You'll have to bring it in.
Not an option. She lives 2 hours out in the middle of no where.
How about if I cap it of and put on a diverter nozzle into the tub?
Nope....wouldn't do that. Don't try it. It can't be done. Wow....this is at least....4-6 weeks out on special order.
YOU CAN'T EVEN FIND IT! HOW DO YOU KNOW IT'S 4-6 WEEKS OUT!? :x
Just is....we need to see it.
That makes no sense. Are you telling me that I may have to replace the enire valve assembly over a few o-rings or something stupid? :roll:
Most likely.
Not gonna happen. I'll just inform her that she's going to have to shower in a pee dribble for the rest of her natural born life. Thanks for all yer help.
:evil: :evil: :evil:

I gotta tell ya........ :roll:

[Weldangrind]

That sucks. I know a Mom and Pop shop in Abbotsford that will probably have the parts, and I'd be happy to mail them to you.

Wanna take the gland nut off of the diverter and show me? I know it's a long drive, but this doesn't seem to be fixing itself.

[2LZ]

That sucks. I know a Mom and Pop shop in Abbotsford that will probably have the parts, and I'd be happy to mail them to you.

Wanna take the gland nut off of the diverter and show me? I know it's a long drive, but this doesn't seem to be fixing itself.
Thanks for the offer, WAG! :D I'll keep you posted, for sure.
We spoke last night and have decided that before I tear anything more apart and possibly disable something, we need to finish her other small shower first. That's just a matter of backer board, some Marlite and a shower curtain. That way, if this one has to be accidently down for a while, she won't have to shower at work!

[Weldangrind]

Excellent idea. It would also be wise to stop at Lowes and grab an assorted bag of o-rings, washers and packings. it'll only cost a few bucks, and it might allow you to dismantle the diverter valve, photograph it and then fix it.

You're a good guy for helping her, 2LZ.

[Cal25]

is it the diverter that you are looking for? Maybe Moen pn 1198 would work. It is for modles prior to 06/02.
Here is a pic. http://www.plumbersurplus.com/Prod/Moen-1198-Push-button-diverter-Legend-Moentrol-1-handle-tub-shower/101531/Cat/1198

[Weldangrind]

And it ships for free! You can even like it on Facebook! :lol:

It sure would be nice if that did the trick.

[2LZ]

Wow! That looks promising! Now I can't wait to tear it apart! With any luck....it could work...even if I have to just swap guts.

Man....I have to tell you, The China Riders community is an awesome one! I'd like to thank you guys for all your help and concern. This poor gal was really left in a lurch a couple years ago and it's nice to know that folks everywhere, no matter how extended, are willing to lend a hand. :D

You guys refresh the meaning of "Happy Thanksgiving!" :D

[Cal25]

If that is it, with the PN you should be able to find it locally.

[Weldangrind]

2LZ, you're the Man for helping her; it's easy for me to plunk away on a keyboard. You're the one driving two hours each way just to help.

Cal, you're the Man for finding the part. :D

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

[Cal25]

I hope it is the right part. Really dissapointed in Moen though. When I built my house about 12 years ago, I wanted good, quality, name brand fixtures that would stand the test of time and be able to fix if there was a problem. For that reason I chose Moen for every fixture in the house. The kitchen fuacet was about 350 dollars. I havent had any problems yet but when I read this post, the fixture looked very similar to the ones in my shower. I tried looking them up on Moen's web page and sure enough, no support. These things are built into the walls. It's not simple to just replace a tub/shower fixture when it needs attention. I hope you have luck with your friends problem.

[Weldangrind]

On a positive Moen note, I simply walked into the local Rona (very similar to Lowes) and handed them the cartridge for my kitchen faucet. They handed me a new cartridge, an o-ring kit and a new snap cap for the top, all for free. They claim that they'll do that forever.

[2LZ]

Cal, I wouldn't be to depressed. After all, this shower valve was installed in 1960. It's withstood 50 years of absolutely horrific well water before it's had any problems. That definitely has to say something about the overall quality of Moen products.....and I also can't help but think if it had a decent quality of water going through it, this may not have happened. I mean, this stuff is BAD! :x

Boy....if her other shower faucet has issues, I'm really up a creek without a paddle. It's a knob, tub spout, diverter and big soap dish, all in one unit. I've never seen one before! 8O

[Weldangrind]

Remember, if you need to replace a valve, Shark Bite is your friend.

[2LZ]

Well! Thanks to Cal (and tons of input and support, brains knocking together, etc....) as the part arrived tonight! :D
The nut size is correct and also, the little brass washer she found in the bottom of the tub one morning looks the same! Fingers crossed! :D
Heading up Friday after work..... Have to shave some of the wall to get my 1" deep well socket on it but I got everything ready. Nothing a little Roto-Zip can't handle. 8)
Since it's so old, I'm thinking I'll put a little wire brush on my Dremel and clean up the joint before I try to untorque it.
Got the torch.....just in case. 8O

I gotta tell ya....every time I go there...it's all about work and I'm usually filthy by the end of the day. It's going to be nice to take a real shower.... :D

[Weldangrind]

I was just rebuilding my Moen kitchen faucet on the weekend and wondering how you're making out. Glad to hear it looks right so far. Good luck.

[Cal25]

Good luck with it!

[2LZ]

HAHA! Success! :D 50 year old Moen shower valve, good as new! :D

The part I received that Cal pointed me to was a REAL Moen part! Made in USA! (some foreign parts included....it says. Gee! Wonder where!? 8) )
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/2LZ_photos/CIMG5177.jpg

I was impressed! Nice piece of brass....even came with a good quality o-ring so I didn't need any teflon tape! :D
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/2LZ_photos/CIMG5179.jpg

This is how much water was coming out of the tub spout with the shower on. You can only imagine how little was coming out of the shower nozzle. Basically....you got pee'd on rinsing your hair. 8O
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/2LZ_photos/CIMG5181.jpg

Had to bust out the Roto-Zip to access the diverter.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/2LZ_photos/CIMG5183.jpg

The new one wasn't the same nut size as the 50 year old one!...so what I brought didn't work! :x Had to dig around in her garage. Found the proper setup to remove the old one....thank the Lord! :D You prep as much as possible....but with a 2 hour drive in foul weather....you can only anticipate so much.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/2LZ_photos/CIMG5185.jpg

Had to dig around in the valve and get all the old parts out that rotted off the old diverter.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/2LZ_photos/CIMG5186.jpg

VIOLA! The new one fit like a glove even though there was a few changes over a half a century! :D
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/2LZ_photos/CIMG5188.jpg

WOO HOO! :D In the last 2 years I've been up there helping out, it's NEVER been this good! We may even get clean now! :D
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/2LZ_photos/CIMG5191.jpg

I'd like to send a special thanks out to everyone who helped get this project completed here at Chinariders! You guys are the best! :D
Merry Christmas to all! :D :D

[Weldangrind]

That's an amazing still shot. What kind of camera do you use?

http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/2LZ_photos/CIMG5181.jpg

I'm glad to hear that it went well. Another good report for Moen. :D

[Jim]

Cool glad you got it figured out. :) Very kind of you to fix it for her, and the guys here to help out :) I don't know anything about plumbing but I'll have to learn soon, the guy who owned my place before me knew quite a bit less then me, but that didn't stop him from improvising... :roll:

[Cal25]

Glad you got it working!

[2LZ]

That's an amazing still shot. What kind of camera do you use?

Nothing fancy! Just an old Casio EX-257. 5 M.P.