View Full Version : Can some of you religious folk explain something...
First of all, I am not posting this to offend, I am curious...
Of course there will be some generalizing here, and I also am not too informed on the exact specifics of your beliefs...
How is it not a conflict of interest between your religious beliefs, and your political beliefs if you are a conservative/right winger? It seems like a contradiction against the values that Christianity is supposed to support (the ones they brag about anyways)... The right don't like social programs that help the needy, and health care, and education and so on, things that will better society.
I found an article on a similar nature but I haven't read it all... http://www.right-wing-pseudo-christians.com/matthew-25.htm
As well as http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2010/05/17/HarpersChristianWing/
I live in what has been described both as "the bible belt" and "a conservative stronghold". I will be voting against them, again, but I fully expect it to have no affect as usual. I just don't understand the point of view, it seems illogical and hypocritical.
suprf1y
04-16-2011, 01:49 AM
You will get answers from Americans.
Don't confuse American right wing parties with Canadian right wing parties. Our Conservatives are far more left wing than their left wing parties, or put another way, their lefties are far more conservative than our own conservative party.
I am anti religious, and think it has NO place in politics (the overwhelming majority of Canadians do not go to church) and is the only thing I don't like about the Conservative party, but it's such a non issue, I still vote conservative. I wish they were a lot more right wing.
Weldangrind
04-16-2011, 02:00 AM
it seems illogical and hypocritical.
It sure does. I've had these very thoughts this week.
As a Christian, I'm certainly big on mercy and forgiveness, therefore I consistently give to those in need. That would fundamentally imply that I'm in favour of social programs. While I am, that doesn't make me an NDP fan.
As a Christian, I'm a huge proponent of peace, love, free will and forgiveness, but that doesn't mean I'm a Liberal.
As a Christian, I'm opposed to abortion, but that doesn't mean I'm a Conservative.
The reality is that we can't pigeon-hole Christians as right-wingers (at least not the ones I hang around with). I certainly don't know many Christians who jump on political bandwagons out of some sense of duty. Like most Canadians (and perhaps our American friends), we're not often happy with the choices we're presented with at election time. We all need to vote for whomever best represents our interests at the time, and I think that most of us ride near the center of the spectrum. How else does one explain such close contests as Bush vs. Gore? No speculations about impropriety by either party are encouraged here. :wink:
For the information of our American friends, we sort of have a three party system, with a few other parties slowly gaining ground. That said, the federal contest is mostly between the Liberals and Conservatives (Democrats and Republicans). In our system, we can't vote directly for our federal leader like you; we vote for a local representative, and then the leader of the winning party becomes the Prime Minister. As a system, it has pros and cons.
davidsonsgccc
04-16-2011, 08:55 AM
let me start off by saying this is my opinion.
i am an american living in the bible belt. i love my god, country, and fellow man. im a conservative without a doubt but conservative to me maybe different than conservative to you. i believe that religion may not have a place in politics but i believe that every politician here in the u.s.a should have a strong belief in God. i believe the teachings of the new testament were the moral compass use to write our constitution. there are many in our country now who would argue that but there are plenty of facts proving that many of our founding fathers were godly men. i believe you have to have a god centered moral compass to interpret the constitution correctly. i dont believe that religion and believing in jesus are the same thing. man uses religion as a tool for his on gain and you have to becareful that your not following mans views instead of the virtues that jesus would have us strive for.
i dont think there has been any one candidate politically that represents my christian beliefs completely so i have had to vote for the lesser of two evils. i like social security and medicare and i believe we are susposed to help those tht cant help them selves. unfortunately our politicians seem to use the poor and afflicted as tools to wage voting warfare against each other. by biblical standards we are susposed to take care of our own so the church wouldnt have to. but that doesnt always happen. i believe the american government is being the enabliers to making so many dependent on them. the government shouldnt get to play our nanie because they dont want to stop there they want to own us. no offence is meant to anyone . but this is how i believe.
shawn
proberts
04-16-2011, 11:10 AM
The right don't like social programs that help the needy, and health care, and education and so on, things that will better society.
I think maybe your looking at this backwards. Jesus never preached the government should provide for the needy - he preached we should. Now if the government does it through tax payer funded social programs that does not leave a lot of money in our pockets to use for charity. Many of the soial programs we are forced to fund go against a Christians beliefs. As such the conservative political party aligns more closely with Christian beliefs in that more money (supposedly) left in our pockets to give to charities they personally believe in.
Also, the right winger part of me, thinks that Jesus said to help the widows and the orphans, people who can not help themselves. He said nothing about funding a food stamp program for (in some cases) third generation recipients so they can afford cigaretts, alcohol, cable TV and a host of other unnecessary items.
That seems pretty judgmental, something I thought was supposed to be frowned upon? Although I also know judging others and intolerance is a big part of religion, even if said religion doesn't want to advertise it front and center.
The fact is the government money could be used to fund such programs as health care and education, and fighting poverty ( poverty, which is more likely to cause adverse effects in society ), without taking all of your money, it is a matter of priorities. The rights priorities are war machines, prisons, and corporate welfare. At least here in Canada. I don't know about you but I would rather my tax dollars go help someone in need then go to big oil to aid in the destruction of Alberta, even though they are already obscenely profitable.
I don't know that I agree with the comment that Canada's conservatives are further left then American conservatives, I think if Harper gets his desired majority you will find out just how much he can operate like Bush. I see a private for profit health care system in our future, as well as privatization of CPP, and our water infrastructure. Further cuts for corporations, further reducing the tax base and thus requiring more cuts to public services, and more taxes for the people.
Canada's system is broken, we need to move to a proportional system. According to http://www.projectdemocracy.ca/ "More than 60 percent of Canadians do not support Harper and his government's contempt for democracy. Yet, he could win a majority with as little as 35 percent of the popular vote.". This site is on the same subject http://www.fairvote.ca/en/problem .
Not to mention the weight of Quebec.
Frostbite said Harper may not be great but he's the best choice. I don't believe that at all, given how little support he actually has. There are many better choices but our system doesn't properly represent what Canadians want.
Harper said you won't recognize Canada when he's through with it. I am worried how true that is going to be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSjc0C1bLJE (a little cursing, but I hardly think swearing is worse than what Harper is doing).
Canada has a number of parties, it is essential LPC (liberal) vs CPC (cons), but there are 3 other main parties. The Green Party of Canada, The NDP, and The Bloc. The Bloc isn't a national party but they have a big impact on the outcome. There are also a bunch of other parties, I don't know the number, but they are silly parties that aren't in my opinion real parties.
Weldangrind
04-16-2011, 12:29 PM
...our system doesn't properly represent what Canadians want.
I've felt that way for a long time. Remember when Kim Clark ran for PM? Her party failed to win enough seats and she lost her riding, so she lost the election. I heard a stat after that said more Canadians voted for her party than any other when it was all added up. That tells me that if we had a primary electoral system like the US, she would have been PM.
I'm not saying that's a good thing, nor do I believe the stat carte blanche, but it is interesting to chew on.
Jim, you nailed it when you said that judgement and intolerance can be a big part of religion. Please bear in mind that religion is created by man to further man's ends (as davidsonsgccc alluded).
suprf1y
04-16-2011, 02:33 PM
We have private, for profit health care in our system now. There are many private clinics that are covered by our government insurance plans. I hope we see more cuts for corporations, and more cuts for individuals. Harper has cut taxes for Canadians, and I am strongly in favour of that.
We are ALL taxed FAR too heavily. Individuals, small business, and corporations alike. Does anybody disagree with that?
Personally, I would like to see some public services, and subsidies cut. I think we have too many, and too much waste. Too much is spent on education for what we get, and the system is bloated, and broken. I don't think you can fight poverty with more money. You can only subsidize it, and that just leads to more poverty. IMO, we all need less government in our lives.
It's probably true that the majority of Canadians don't want Harper, but more Canadians want Harper than any other leader. Look at the choices. Would you want Ignatieff running our country?
Yes I know we have been moving more and more to privatized health care.
Canada's corporate tax rates are the lowest of the g8 countries... Corporate Tax cuts haven't seemed to work in favor of Ireland.
So yes, to answer your question, I do disagree with that. The fact the gap between the rich and the poor is increasing and the middle class is shrinking should be alarming.
It sounds like you are against government inefficiencies, which I can agree with.
Would I want Ignatieff? Yes, I would settle for him over Harper, I would also accept Elizabeth May, but my preference would be for Jack Layton.
For the record, I'm stickin with the NDP ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auVGvM4_9XU
davidsonsgccc
04-17-2011, 08:28 AM
just from listening to you guys talk about canada's political problems it sounds very familiar with the u.s. i think politicians are thinking they are in it to make decisions for us and not serve us. sadly the majority of politicians are no better than the big corporations that think of us average people as numbers and statistics. they cant see us from their house so why worry about us. they have country club membership dues to pay and foreign countries to visit.
suprf1y
04-17-2011, 02:08 PM
Yes I know we have been moving more and more to privatized health care.
Canada's corporate tax rates are the lowest of the g8 countries... Corporate Tax cuts haven't seemed to work in favor of Ireland.
So yes, to answer your question, I do disagree with that. The fact the gap between the rich and the poor is increasing and the middle class is shrinking should be alarming.
In Ontario, there have always been private clinics, labs, and services covered by our OHIP. That has not changed in my lifetime. Maybe BC is different. I don't see any evidence of a move to private health care. Maybe you can give us some examples?
Our corporate tax rates might be the lowest, but they're not low enough. IMO, there shouldn't be any corporate taxes. It's double, and triple taxation. They tax the people that work for the company, everything the people, and company buy, and everything it sells. There is only so much money to take, and they're taking too much. Imagine what would happen if there were no corporate taxes? Everybody would want to set up shop here. How is that a bad thing?
3 questions.
Why is the middle class disappearing, and what does it have to do with the conservative party?
Do you want to pay less taxes, or more?
Reveeen
04-17-2011, 02:38 PM
Taxes..............
Tell me about taxes, as I near the end of my "life cycle" I am using less, and less, government services, yet seem to be paying more taxes than ever. 52% on this tax return, and of the 48% left to me to madly spend, 14% of that.
Not to mention the carbon tax that is going to be sprung on us after this election (currently in NB tax on gasoline is 52%).
The Liberals are saying it if asked, the Conservatives are keeping quiet, real quiet.
So, while I consider myself "middle class", I am clearly being taxed to the point of poverty.
Well now we are getting off the original question of why religious people are against the left parties that support helping the needy, but I will try to answer..
Suprf1y, Harper wants health care in Canada to be tiered so the rich can get ahead of the poor, his opinions on health care are not secret, he just hasn't been able to act on his desires because he hasn't been able to achieve a majority. http://www.rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/murray-dobbin/2011/04/dr-harpers-new-and-improved-medicare
In BC everything is moving toward privatization, our roads, bc hydro and the rivers used for power generation, even our drinking water infrastructure.
As for your opinion on corporate tax cuts and how they will create jobs, there isn't evidence that corporate tax cuts create jobs. Here are some fun videos on this issue...
http://www.peopleforcorporatetaxcutscanada.ca/our_cause/irish.php
http://www.peopleforcorporatetaxcutscanada.ca/our_cause/jobs.php
and this one
http://www.peopleforcorporatetaxcutscanada.ca/our_cause/30_cents_back.php
To you're next 3 questions, 1, why? I'm not sure what question you are asking me? Are you asking me why I think it's disappearing, as in the cause of it, or what gives me the impression that it is? To answer I will say I base my statement on various information sources I have read about the income gap between the rich and poor growing, the small percentage at the top income levels earning most of the wealth in the country and so on. Why I think it is happening, is because of corporate tax cuts and breaks for the rich, and because that is how our corporatism system works. It is not only in Canada that this is occurring and it is not only the Conservative Party of Canada that are the cause but their policies certainly favor the continuation of funneling the wealth to the wealthy individuals and corporations, and/or out of the country. I'm sorry I can't give you any specific links, as I have been reading about issues like this and others for a long time and there are just so many things to read and I cannot possibly remember where they all are. If you want you can search google for class war, I haven't done that but I assume it will bring up relevant information, or search for prosperity gap or income gap. Of course, I may be wrong, but I don't think you are interested, I think you figure I am full of hot air, but that's ok, and I'm wrong and you we're truly curious then I apologize.
Do I want to pay less taxes, or more? I want more value for my taxes. The amount I pay is fine, but the way it is used is not. The f35 is the wrong plane for Canada, the plan to build mega us-style prisons that are more likely to produce re-offenders, at a time where crime rates have been dropping for a decade, closing down prison-farms that are apparently more effective for not producing re-offenders, among many other things that I can't recall right now because it's very late and I have to be up for work soon are not how I want my tax dollars spent. I also do not want my tax dollars going to private corporations like we see with these p3 projects and privatization of our public corporations and resources. I want less taxes for the poor and more taxes for the large corporations and extremely wealthy.
Reveen I don't see a carbon tax in the future if Harper wins again. If the wealthy and large corporations had to pay their fair share to make their profits in our country, then maybe you wouldn't have to pay so much tax. The conservatives don't have much concern for the environment, science isn't one of their favorite topics.
Here's another good link http://compellingcomics.justsomeguy.com/CanadaVotes2011/Canada.html
Here's a good video too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-1R-Y3tLu0
Here's another fun video on the subject, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jISlelzxKyI
Just in case anyone doesn't remember Joe...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRI-A3vakVg
Not sure I'd be too proud to sew Canada's flag on my backpack anymore. To be perfectly honest.
suprf1y
05-03-2011, 02:29 AM
The Canadian people have spoken.
Yes, 60% of them did not vote for Harper. And now for the next 4 years Harper basically has free reign to further his special interests. As I said before, our electoral system is dysfunctional, however now under a Harper majority there is not much hope of any reform.
Sorry, I should say 60% of those who voted, voted against Harper. Voter turnout was again at record low.
suprf1y
05-03-2011, 07:37 AM
Spin it however you want, all the other parties combined did not get near as many seats as the Conservatives. Canadian people have spoken.
frostbite
05-03-2011, 07:55 AM
Yes, 60% of them did not vote for Harper.
Sorry, I should say 60% of those who voted, voted against Harper. Voter turnout was again at record low.
Interesting, I see it as 70% didn't vote for Layton and 82% didnt' vote for Iggy.
Spin it however you want, all the other parties combined did not get near as many seats as the Conservatives. Canadian people have spoken.
The Conservatives have won 54.22% of the seats with only 39.62% of the votes. I'm not spinning anything. I just don't agree with our first past the post system, because it doesn't provide proportional representation. 40% of the votes isn't the majority of votes. It is the majority of seats though, yes, but that is why I said we need PR.
Weldangrind
05-03-2011, 10:35 AM
It was a victory for NDP fans, as they've never been the OO before (at least not that I'm aware of).
katoranger
05-03-2011, 01:42 PM
I take it that your elections were held.
suprf1y
05-03-2011, 03:57 PM
It was a victory for NDP fans, as they've never been the OO before (at least not that I'm aware of).
It definitely was, but not on merit.
The NDP sucked up a lot of the anti-Ignatieff vote by default.
Nonetheless, a Conservative majority is a victory for Canada :D
Weldangrind
05-03-2011, 05:33 PM
The anti-Ignatieff sentement was overwhelming. I'm quite surprised that the Liberals lost as badly as they did. I guess that Layton appeared to be the lesser of two evils, and Harper the lesser of three.
At the end of the day, I'm just glad that we finally got a majority Federal government. I don't want to go through this crap again next year.
As far as "the people of Canada has spoken"... Who voted for Harper? I don't have the exact number, but our majority government was elected by something like 22% of eligible voters.
Yes the NDP is opposition, but what will they be able to do with a majority sitting across from them?
Harper getting a majority is a victory for approx 22% of eligible voters. Not for Canada.
http://www.fairvote.ca/en/Canadians-cheated-again-by-voting-system
Weldangrind
05-04-2011, 01:50 AM
I would certainly entertain a new voting system. For one, I'd like to have the opportunity to elect our federal leader directly, like the U.S.
I remember reading that Kim Campbell lost her seat, but the Conservatives received over two million votes in '93. None of the votes were concentrated enough in any area to win seats, so the Conservatives won only two seats. I wonder how the outcome would have differed if we didn't have a first past the post system. Not that I was a Kim Campbell fan, but it's a valid curiosity.
Well we elect our local MP's to represent us in Ottawa, and whatever group has the most members in Parliament gets to form government, as long as they have the confidence of the house... Harper is the CONS leader so he is PM... But he lies to Parliament so they no longer have support for him. His reward for that is majority, so now no more confidence votes, so he can do as he pleases. Anyways back to the point, I was going to say the idea is they represent us in Ottawa, but that is not how it works in reality, they basically represent the party to us. I think there should be proportional representation, so that the government reflects what Canadians want. All Canadians (at least those who vote). Now the only people with say is the 39% of voters (or around 22-24% of eligible voters) who elected the Conservatives. Sure there are a lot of NDP MP's, but what can they possibly do versus the Conservative majority? There was a chance for electoral reform with the NDP, but not now with the Conservative majority, which will also eliminate the per vote subsidy making it much harder for the rest of the parties.
I would also suggest that it is my opinion many people already vote for the leader. I don't vote for the local mp, I vote based on the party platform and principles.
davidsonsgccc
05-04-2011, 09:26 AM
not picking sides because it happens here too. but all the people that dont vote should realize that they are supporting the winner if they dont vote against him.
the majority speaks weither they want to or not.
At the end of the day, I'm just glad that we finally got a majority Federal government. I don't want to go through this crap again next year.
I sure hope not many people let that decide how they voted.
And back on how I don't think saying "Canadians have spoken" actually reflects the results, http://www.suite101.com/content/canadian-democracy-in-decline--a-post-election-analysis-a369402
suprf1y
05-05-2011, 07:44 PM
The system is no different now, than it has been in the past.
You wouldn't be complaining about the system if Layton were running the country now, would you?
Look what happened to the liberals. Canadians have definitely made their point clear about them, and your party was the benefactor. Just imagine if Ignattieff wasn't so bad (quite possibly the worst liberal leader ever), your party would still be a distant third. I would think you'd be quite happy.
That, my friend, is democracy in action.
You need to get over it Jim, and accept that more Canadians wanted a Conservative government, including Stephen Harper, than any of the other parties.
You can talk about eligible voters, and percentages all you want, but if you total the seats together of ALL the other 4 parties, they still don't have as many as the Conservative party.
The Conservatives rule, and that's democracy.
I'm glad we now have a majority, and even more glad we have a Conservative majority. This is a great time for Canada.
Weldangrind
05-05-2011, 10:16 PM
At the end of the day, I'm just glad that we finally got a majority Federal government. I don't want to go through this crap again next year.
I sure hope not many people let that decide how they voted.
Please don't infer that's how I chose whom to vote for. I'm just glad it's over. Whomever the victor, it's time to move forward and run the country.
The system is no different now, than it has been in the past.
You wouldn't be complaining about the system if Layton were running the country now, would you?
Look what happened to the liberals. Canadians have definitely made their point clear about them, and your party was the benefactor. Just imagine if Ignattieff wasn't so bad (quite possibly the worst liberal leader ever), your party would still be a distant third. I would think you'd be quite happy.
That, my friend, is democracy in action.
You need to get over it Jim, and accept that more Canadians wanted a Conservative government, including Stephen Harper, than any of the other parties.
You can talk about eligible voters, and percentages all you want, but if you total the seats together of ALL the other 4 parties, they still don't have as many as the Conservative party.
The Conservatives rule, and that's democracy.
I'm glad we now have a majority, and even more glad we have a Conservative majority. This is a great time for Canada.
Yes, I would like a fair electoral system, regardless of which party it benefited. I never said it was different that in the past, I said it needs to be fixed. I don't care if the Liberals or the NDP... or the Greens or whomever are beating what party.
More Canadian voters did vote for the Conservative party then any other party, but more voters voted for the left then did the right. The right however has consolidated all parties into one so they can beat the split left. The fact is more Canadians still vote for the left, however the right now has absolute control. That is why we need a fair voting system, as I said before the election, not because of the results.
Weld I didn't intend to infer anything abut how you voted, and I don't know who you voted for, I was simply saying I hope that people did not chose based on that alone.
Weldangrind
05-06-2011, 12:08 AM
Cool.
I read the article you linked, and this line kept coming back to me:
So what does all this mean? It means that for the next four years 60 percent of Canadians will be governed by a party that they didn't vote for.
Read more at Suite101: Canadian Democracy in Decline: A Post-Election Analysis | Suite101.com http://www.suite101.com/content/canadian-democracy-in-decline--a-post-election-analysis-a369402#ixzz1LXgMUoYQ
If more Canadians bothered to vote, I wonder how the first past the post system would work.
suprf1y
05-06-2011, 01:02 AM
more voters voted for the left then did the right
How so?
How so? Mathematically so? The Liberals and the NDP (both left parties) received more votes combined then the Conservatives (the right party)...
The Conservatives only gained 1.8% of the vote over the last election but picked up 24 more seats.
Weldangrind
05-06-2011, 10:21 AM
Again, I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of people who don't bother to vote. It really bugs me that we should consider overhauling the system due to voter apathy.
suprf1y
05-06-2011, 05:47 PM
FYI, liberals are middle, NDP left, Conservative right.
The reality is that they're all left, some are just less so.
Another good article on the need for electoral reform, http://www.thecanadian.org/k2/item/752-electoral-reform-an-unfinished-conversation
In 1996 the BC NDP formed government even though the BC Liberals got the majority of the vote.
It is not just a "my party lost" and I'm upset thing, the system clearly does not accurately reflect the will of the voters.
As a response to your view of the party positions, I would call the Liberals (fed) center left, ndp, left, and cons right. The BC Liberals I would call right.
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