Prosthetic and control mods for one handed riders

[trixter]

In response to people asking me to post this information in a thread that they can freely discuss ideas and other things I have done just that.

First I have one hand. What I did is for me and me alone. You are free to use, adapt or modify what I have done to fit your particular need, desire or other requirement however I am not saying that my way is best for anyone but me and me alone.

Since I am missing my right hand and would like to be able to use both a clutch and front brake I have looked into ways to move the brake to the left side. I had looked into auto clutches and did not like them, particularly the $650 cost (even though some places would give me a disabled rider discount of about 10% that still put the cost quite high). I do not really mind shifting either. I also looked at stuff like the Klever2[1], but $2k for the levers only with no master cylinder that seemed even worse price wise.

This got me to thinking a bit about the problem, in base terms. I need a left handed master cylinder, a shorty lever (for either the clutch or the brake based on what feels better) and enough room on the handlebars to mount both on the left side. I can mount them slightly offset from each other so they dont get in the way of each other.

For a left handed master cylinder I decided a hydraulic clutch would work well, and there are many such clutches in the same size as many brake master cylinders. This means that pressure and other features of the brake should work identically on a wide variety of bikes.

For the throttle the problem is a little more complex. I am missing my right hand, wrist and about 1/3 of my forearm. I could go with a premade prosthesis[2][3][4] but there is a cost factor associated with it, and the only one I would want would be the touch bionics one, which is several times the cost of a traditional prosthetic hand ($50k and up). I am also more adept at not using a prosthesis than using one, in short I cant type well with a prosthetic hand, I cant do many of the other tasks that I do daily with one or it will slow me down dramatically to have it. To that end the money justification for merely riding a bike seemed quite high. I decided to make my own.

Here are my blog entries of the process that I went through, including a few dead ends that I took along the way. For me with my arm I am able to almost do a pull up before the socket comes off, but it does come off eventually. This means that I can hold on and not be thrown back during acceleration. I can also relax my arm and it will slide off with almost no force. If I dump the bike I will separate no matter what, a very good thing as I do not want to be drug down the street by my bike if I fall. The only disadvantage currently is that it can get cold. I plan on fixing that with some "heating tape" which is similar to glove warmers. Basically it is used for keeping water pipes above freezing in cold weather, but its a flexible 'tape' that you wrap around whatever you want to keep warm and plug it in. When current is applied it will generate a small amount of heat. I will need to play with this so that it does not get so warm I end up with a burn or melt my jacket, this will be a voltage based control system which is not terribly difficult to construct.

I also made it with a quick disconnect, part of it will remain on the throttle and be similar to a palm rest. The remainder will come off and I can take that with me (which avoids having to deal with pigeons doing naughty things to it, or careless people doing stupid things and making it unusable for the ride home). This also prevents it from getting super hot just sitting in the sun while I am indoors or whatever, or freezing in the winter.

My blog urls in order are:
http://www.0xdecafbad.com/2010/10/casting-for-the-prosthesis/
http://www.0xdecafbad.com/2010/10/making-a-positive-from-a-negative/
http://www.0xdecafbad.com/2010/10/creating-the-socket/
http://www.0xdecafbad.com/2010/10/carbon-fiber-and-painting/
http://www.0xdecafbad.com/2010/11/finished-prosthesis-and-review-of-project/


Footnotes:
[1]http://www.klever2.com/Gallery3.html
[2]http://www.oandp.com/products/trs/
[3]http://www.touchbionics.com
[4]http://www.prostheticarm.com/

[Weldangrind]

I'm a little unclear on how the device attaches to the throttle, but I'm sure it will make more sense when you apply it to a bike. Have you considered a spherical rod end instead of a turnbuckle? They're also available as a right angle stud and socket, with the original application being carb linkage in a car. Both options are very affordable, and they might provide more precision. Just my $0.02.

Going back to the auto clutch (which would still allow changing gears), perhaps a clutch assmebly from an eighties Honda ATC could be adapted. That would eliminate one lever entirely.

Consider a Chinese ATV rear brake lever assembly for an economical master cylinder solution. I bet that would work well for a left hand brake with a front wheel caliper. They often have controls on them that could be used for high / low beam, horn and signals. Mine does.

[trixter]

I'm a little unclear on how the device attaches to the throttle, but I'm sure it will make more sense when you apply it to a bike. Have you considered a spherical rod end instead of a turnbuckle? They're also available as a right angle stud and socket, with the original application being carb linkage in a car. Both options are very affordable, and they might provide more precision. Just my $0.02.

Do you mean a ball and socket joint? If so those are not suitable to my needs. In order to turn the throttle I cannot have the joint flex in an up/down motion. What I have done gives me rotation (pronation/supination) by allowing the turnbuckle bolt to screw in/out. It also gives me flexing left/right across a horizontal plane (ie thumb/pinky side if your palm is down). For rotating the throttle I rotate my arm at the shoulder which translates to a turning force on the throttle. Imagine having a wrist brace, like the ones commonly used for carpal tunnel syndrome. In order to turn the throttle you have to rotate at the shoulder (and your elbow will move along with your hand).


As for how it attaches, in the final pictures the other half of the CB mount is not present. Refer to the final blog url (images below) and look at the mount itself. The design is in two parts with 4 bolts that hold them together. The design is to allow for it mounting around a mirror post (or other tubular shaped item). Basically I loosen the bolts, then slide it on the throttle and tighten the bolts. Then when pressure is applied to what is now a palm rest the throttle will spin.

Here are some images showing the mount on a mirror for reference, just replace the tubular post to the mirror with a throttle.

http://www.ba-marc.org/images/CB750K02_s.jpg
http://www.0xdecafbad.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/CB-antenna-mirror-mount.jpg

A palm rest (aka throttle rocker)
http://www.ekho.com/elton/images/THROTTLE1.jpg




Going back to the auto clutch (which would still allow changing gears), perhaps a clutch assmebly from an eighties Honda ATC could be adapted. That would eliminate one lever entirely.

Yes it would and for many that seems to be acceptable. For me I prefer to have a clutch.


Consider a Chinese ATV rear brake lever assembly for an economical master cylinder solution. I bet that would work well for a left hand brake with a front wheel caliper. They often have controls on them that could be used for high / low beam, horn and signals. Mine does.

The bikes that I have looked at have those controls on the left. The only control I have seen on the right (for the bikes I have looked at) is the starter. The control block will not be moved or altered for my needs.

The only disadvantage is that if the engine stalls I must stop to restart it. I *could* put it in neutral and reach over with my left hand to start while rolling but I would rather avoid doing that. Some may consider this an essential safety procedure since you may not always be able to coast to the edge of the road, however my options are adding a start button to the left side or reaching over and right now I have decided to push that decision off to a later date and just try not to stall out and if I do get off the road with whatever forward motion I have.

The only "trick" for using a clutch master cylinder, which was mentioned on my blog but not here, is to use a banjo bolt with a pressure sensor for the brake light. These are readily available from a variety of sources. The only drawback is that you have to actually apply the brakes to get the light to turn on. With many brake master cylinders you can lightly press the lever to get just the light and no braking force applied. This can be useful for warning people to back off, and that 'feature' will not be present on the modded bike.

[Weldangrind]

It's not a trick with the ATV version. Mine is also equipped with a simple momentary switch that operates the brake light. The application is a GY6 150cc quad that has no brake pedal.

I think I get the throttle control now. You're clamping onto the throttle; correct?

[trixter]

I should clarify that the red part in the final image on my blog would form the palm rest (with its other half wrapping around the throttle itself). In the above post that is the mount by itself (middle pic).

If this is still unclear lemme know and I will try to think of another way to explain how it mounts.

[trixter]

It's not a trick with the ATV version. Mine is also equipped with a simple momentary switch that operates the brake light. The application is a GY6 150cc quad that has no brake pedal.


I found some that are $26 delivered, however I cannot find specs on them. The bikes I was looking at (as in plural) were generally 16x18 or 16x19. Do you know what that one is?

For those that dont know master cylinders have a dictated bore size, using one that is different alters the lever travel as well as the braking force applied. While you can use a different bore size the lever may be super sensitive or it may require more travel to provide the same braking force.

Depending on application this may be the desired effect. If you go too far out of spec the slightest lever movement may cause the brakes to be fully applied not giving you a gradual application. In the other direction you can end up pressing it against the handlebars and it is still not fully applied.


[/quote]I think I get the throttle control now. You're clamping onto the throttle; correct?[/quote]

Yes, I am clamping the red part (CB mirror mount) around the throttle.

This also means that it is generic across multiple bikes. I can leave the CB mount on a couple different bikes and when I pick one to ride that day I just attach the clevis pin and off I go.

[Weldangrind]

I don't know the specs of the master, and I only presume that the front and rear calipers on Honda clones are the same; they look to be. Even though Honda clones tend to be on the lower end of the quality scale, parts are plentiful and often interchangeable with genuine Honda stuff, which broadens your search criteria. That said, you might be able to use a complete rear brake setup from an ATV and mount the caliper on the front wheel, thereby providing a matched system. You'd just need a shorter hose.

[FastDoc]

Trixter.

I am impressed by your ingenuity and enjoyed reading your blog(s). I'm glad you have found an ally here in the form of our Chief Engineer, Weldandgrind. :D

[midlifekrisiz]

a co-worker here has a young son that rides a 110 skidoo and he was born without fingers on his left hand.....the war amps made a special attachement for his skidoo that he slides his fingerless hand into and it alows him to ride....they also made him one that clamps onto his hockey stick so he can play.

[trixter]

I don't know the specs of the master, and I only presume that the front and rear calipers on Honda clones are the same; they look to be. Even though Honda clones tend to be on the lower end of the quality scale, parts are plentiful and often interchangeable with genuine Honda stuff, which broadens your search criteria. That said, you might be able to use a complete rear brake setup from an ATV and mount the caliper on the front wheel, thereby providing a matched system. You'd just need a shorter hose.

For the qlink I would not need a new hose because the stock one is plenty long enough and this would take a little slack up. For a ninja I would because its a couple inches too short, and in doing so I would upgrade to stainless steel hoses. I can order custom length hoses for cheap (well reviewed) and they will put whatever end connectors I need on, whether right angle, straight, etc.

I havent looked at any honda clones in large part because of the CARB extortion fee, which many clone makers wont pay. This results in most of the clone bikes not being legal in the state.

[Weldangrind]

Trixter.

I am impressed by your ingenuity and enjoyed reading your blog(s). I'm glad you have found an ally here in the form of our Chief Engineer, Weldandgrind. :D

I'm not ready for a handle like that, Doc. :lol:

[FastDoc]

You could share the job with Wild Alaskan. Some say he once built a Cessna out of coathangers and toilet paper tubes. :P

[trixter]

I am going to be making a new socket (the part that goes on my arm, blue in the photos on my blog). To that end I decided to push the socket I had a bit. If you watched the youtube video you would have seen a static loading of 2 2 liter bottles (about 8 pounds). I did over 60 pounds with the fiberglass shell before I decided it was enough.

I also took a hammer to the old socket to see how much abuse it could really take. It held up quite well to the impacts, there were a few cracks but it did not fall apart. Granted the way I designed it is to come off if I fall, I may revisit that at some point in the future and see if the disconnect should be at the "wrist" instead so that this bit of armor goes with me. That will not happen in the one I am going to make in the next day or two.

Since that was my first socket of that design (2nd socket ever) I think it came out fairly well and is fairly rugged.

As for remaking the socket were there any photos that should have been taken but werent? Photos that would make something more clear on the construction. If I am going to remake it from scratch I thought I should at least ask if I should reshoot anything.

[trixter]

You could share the job with Wild Alaskan. Some say he once built a Cessna out of coathangers and toilet paper tubes. :P

Depending on the cessena that might be impressive :P

/flew a 182 in CAP

[Weldangrind]

If you choose to make it out of carbon fiber, I'd be grateful for some photos of that process. I've certainly worked with fiberglass and MEKP, but I'm not sure if the processes are similar.

I'd also like some information about where you buy carbon fiber supplies. I might like to experiment with it.

[trixter]

If you choose to make it out of carbon fiber, I'd be grateful for some photos of that process. I've certainly worked with fiberglass and MEKP, but I'm not sure if the processes are similar.

I'd also like some information about where you buy carbon fiber supplies. I might like to experiment with it.

The stuff I have seen is much like the fiberglass I used. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rTWaV1imzs

Given the strength of the fiberglass I am unsure that I need to go to carbon fiber.

[trixter]

I am almost done making the new prosthesis socket, this one has a much tighter fit. That is the benefit of doing it a 2nd time :) I am going to lay fiberglass tonight, as soon as I can find something to mix the resin in.

I will try to get photos of it on the throttle tomorrow. I may fail at getting photos but I will try.

[trixter]

Here are some images showing the clamp on the throttle. One is the CB mirror mount by itself and the other is with the socket attached.

The CB mirror mount (I got a new one today as well) has screws that really are not long enough. I will have to replace them, which is not that big of a deal lowes will have them in stock and I have to wait on the "left hand brake" whether that is the ATV one or a clutch master cylinder. I also have to replace the right mirror since that is attached to the lever assembly.

I was playing a bit in the carport and since I have not moved the brake its a bit hard to stop. I almost dropped the bike but with the prosthesis (the new one I did last night) I was able to pull enough to right the bike. Yes I used my left hand as well, but that is still quite a bit of weight to be able to pull from a "slip on" socket. Not everyone can do this, in particular most people who are amputees will be unable to because of the shape of their residual limb and the fact that they usually have much less of a limb so less muscles to contract against the socket to create a vaccuum (which is about half of the holding power, the other half is me just locking my arm in place).

I am eventually going to have to do something with the throttle. In my experimentation stage I thought that I measured enough rotational distance to be able to control the throttle fully. Upon practical application I discovered that it was not sufficient and I will not be able to open it up all the way, at least not easily and possibly not safely due to how much I would have to lean over. Fortunately its trivial to adjust the pull of the cable and a plastic spacer should do the trick lowering the amount of rotation required while making the throttle more sensitive. I will do this last at any rate since I can live with a lower range of throttle but cant live without a front brake.

http://www.0xdecafbad.com/files/Prosthesis-clamp-on-throttle.jpg
http://www.0xdecafbad.com/files/Prosthesis-on-throttle.jpg

[FastDoc]

Nice bike and impressive work. I think white is the best Q color. :D

As far as throttle turning goes, you may be able to find a quick twist (I forget exactly what its called) throttle that only turns 1/4 turn or so. You'd have full motion, but at the expense of maybe being overly sensitive.

[SpudRider]

Perhaps you mentioned it in a previous post, and I missed it; did you decide to buy a QLink motorcycle, Trixter? If so, did you get the XF200, or the XP200? :)

Spud :)

[Weldangrind]

Doc and I had similar thoughts. I think that a two-stroke throttle might meet your needs; one of our fine members made that suggestion in the past (waynev maybe?).

[trixter]

Nice bike and impressive work. I think white is the best Q color. :D


They had white and orange, so I went with white.

Spud I did not mention it, xp.



As far as throttle turning goes, you may be able to find a quick twist (I forget exactly what its called) throttle that only turns 1/4 turn or so. You'd have full motion, but at the expense of maybe being overly sensitive.

For the ninja 250 at least you can slide in a small plastic bushing basically, it increases the diameter of the part that pulls the cable. Increased diameter means a faster pull, so its more sensitive but a smaller rotation. I will look at that first because that was a couple pennies for the bushing.

[trixter]

Doc and I had similar thoughts. I think that a two-stroke throttle might meet your needs; one of our fine members made that suggestion in the past (waynev maybe?).

Not sure what you mean by a two stroke throttle. Is this a thumb throttle? I cant do that except on the left side and its not a good idea to have a thumb throttle, clutch and brake all by the same hand.

If you mean one that uses less rotational distance that is what I was talking about in the post with the images by inserting a small bit of plastic so the cable wraps faster.

[trixter]

It's not a trick with the ATV version. Mine is also equipped with a simple momentary switch that operates the brake light. The application is a GY6 150cc quad that has no brake pedal.

I think I get the throttle control now. You're clamping onto the throttle; correct?

What bikes have you put this on? I really need to order one soon :)

Went for a ride today, well two actually one 0.1 miles and the other 2.2. I now have a total of 2.3 miles under my belt (I am not counting what I did at about age 10 since that was barely riding). I learned the following.

The bike is 271 pound dry weight, about 300+ wet. I almost dropped it when moving it in the garage. I was not planning on riding at that time I was just checking the prosthesis and some other stuff. It ended up at about a 50 degree angle (from the floor, or tipping 40 degrees from top center). I was able to pull it back with the prosthesis and my other arm. The prosthesis does not show signs of wear, no cracking is visually present and I did not hear any (engine was off, everything was quiet). This gives me some confidence in its strength and utility. This was also a pulling motion, the motion most likely to cause my arm to come out.

I was able to get it up to 30 mph in 3rd gear and had some acceleration "throw back" where the bike wanted to go faster before that velocity was transferred to me. The prosthesis worked as expected in that scenario, my arm stayed in it and I was able to hold on.

I really need to make an auxiliary starter button on the left side. I had stalled going down a hill because its quite steep and I really did not want to lose control going down. I went too slow with too little throttle and the bike did not like that. Without a front brake to stop forward motion it was quite difficult for me to shift into neutral to restart the bike, and I cant start it and hold the clutch if the starter is on the right side. I am not yet sure how I will mount the starter switch but it will be near the headlamp controls somewhere.

The angle of the prosthesis is a bit weird to me, the length may also be slightly too long. I may have to play with how it mounts to get a better comfort level. It just seems like my elbow sticks out too far, although part of that may be that I am not used to a right arm that is close in length to my left. I am uncertain at this point, but this is an issue that anyone building something similar needs to take into consideration.

[SpudRider]

Congratulations on riding your first miles with your new prosthesis, and your new XP200, Trixter! :) Did you ride off road, or on the pavement? Am I correct in my understanding this is the first time you have ridden a motorcycle? :?:

Spud :)

[trixter]

Congratulations on riding your first miles with your new prosthesis, and your new XP200, Trixter! :) Did you ride off road, or on the pavement? Am I correct in my understanding this is the first time you have ridden a motorcycle? :?:

Spud :)

I rode one in very limited conditions for very limited durations when I was 10, so yeah basically this is my first time. I am currently riding on the roads around my house, they are very low traffic roads mostly because its a rural area and they are private roads used only by the people that live here to get to/from home. The terrain is mixed, there are some gravel roads, asphalt, dirt, flats, hills, ruts and pot holes, and whatever else.

So far, and granted that is a very limited exposure, I am not having issues with the ruts, bumps and other things that way. Even the gravel is not a problem. I am a bit shy about turning but t hat is mostly a confidence thing. Going down hill is also a bit of a problem, the hill in question is quite steep. Gradual hills I have much less of a problem.

I will continue to ride around this area until I get the front brake moved over. I will want to move the starter quickly after that in case I find myself in a situation where I am stuck on a hill and cant shift into neutral to start the bike again. Fortunately there are almost never any cars on the road so it was not a big deal this time, but outside this area that can be a concern (and there are many hills so I have to deal with them - I am in the foothills of the sierra nevada mountains).

Once I have enough confidence to ride into town (about an hour by car) I will take an MSF course.

[Weldangrind]

Yes, I meant a throttle with a larger diameter that would allow less rotational travel. Two stroke racing bikes have a very digital approach to throttles; on or off.

I'll do some searching for a brake lever and master like mine and get back to you. Try searching on eBay as well.

[trixter]

I'll do some searching for a brake lever and master like mine and get back to you. Try searching on eBay as well.

I found several master cylinders, the problem is I dont know which would be the closest for the bore size and lever offset. I am just gonna wing it then and but one and hope that it works acceptably :) Ordered one for an ATV from "fancy scooter" (ebay shop). I am thinking that an atv and this bike wont be that different because of weight, however I do not want to put this on the ninja or cbr that I get next :)

[SpudRider]

Congratulations on riding your first miles with your new prosthesis, and your new XP200, Trixter! :) Did you ride off road, or on the pavement? Am I correct in my understanding this is the first time you have ridden a motorcycle? :?:

Spud :)

I rode one in very limited conditions for very limited durations when I was 10, so yeah basically this is my first time. I am currently riding on the roads around my house, they are very low traffic roads mostly because its a rural area and they are private roads used only by the people that live here to get to/from home. The terrain is mixed, there are some gravel roads, asphalt, dirt, flats, hills, ruts and pot holes, and whatever else.

So far, and granted that is a very limited exposure, I am not having issues with the ruts, bumps and other things that way. Even the gravel is not a problem. I am a bit shy about turning but t hat is mostly a confidence thing. Going down hill is also a bit of a problem, the hill in question is quite steep. Gradual hills I have much less of a problem.

I will continue to ride around this area until I get the front brake moved over. I will want to move the starter quickly after that in case I find myself in a situation where I am stuck on a hill and cant shift into neutral to start the bike again. Fortunately there are almost never any cars on the road so it was not a big deal this time, but outside this area that can be a concern (and there are many hills so I have to deal with them - I am in the foothills of the sierra nevada mountains).

Once I have enough confidence to ride into town (about an hour by car) I will take an MSF course.
Thank you for your detailed answer, Trixter. :) You are very wise to plan on taking the MSF course. ;) Several years ago I taught motorcycle riding safety in Idaho; therefore, I am well familiar with these courses. Everyone who rides a motorcycle on the street should take a rider safety course, whether he is a new rider, or an experienced rider. In addition to the physical skills taught in the class, the rider is also taught important mental strategies to employ to avoid trouble. A wise rider uses observation, and discretion, to avoid situations where he will need to employ expert riding ability to avoid injury. :)

Spud :)

[Weldangrind]

I'll do some searching for a brake lever and master like mine and get back to you. Try searching on eBay as well.

I found several master cylinders, the problem is I dont know which would be the closest for the bore size and lever offset. I am just gonna wing it then and but one and hope that it works acceptably :) Ordered one for an ATV from "fancy scooter" (ebay shop). I am thinking that an atv and this bike wont be that different because of weight, however I do not want to put this on the ninja or cbr that I get next :)

Gotta link to the one you bought?

[Weldangrind]

Regarding the aux starter button, I'd try a generic two-wire kill switch from a dirt bike.

[trixter]

Gotta link to the one you bought?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160481211949

[trixter]

Regarding the aux starter button, I'd try a generic two-wire kill switch from a dirt bike.

is that a momentary switch? if its not then it wont work the way I need it to. Well it would work it would just be a pain :P Most of the kill switches I have seen are like the qlink red one where its a toggle switch.

[Weldangrind]

Yes, it's momentary. It's a sprung switch that simply grounds the CDI in the original application, but you could easily use a two-wire version for your needs. It's usually the only switch on a dirt-only bike.

Here's what I mean: http://cgi.ebay.ca/Honda-CR250-CR-250-Dirt-Bike-Engine-Stop-Kill-Switch-/280666153768?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item415901a328

[Weldangrind]

Gotta link to the one you bought?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160481211949

That's what I had in mind.

[FastDoc]

That's exactly what I did for a starter button on The Dirt Rat. Worked well.

[trixter]

I was going for a ride this morning before planning on going to sleep and I was going a little more aggressive today. The roads are a mix of dirt, gravel and paved. The dirt parts have a lot of pot holes. I got up to 40mph as I was going across the pot holes, just for fun, and I did 2 laps around my house (2.2 miles total) and then stopped at a neighbors house for a minute. I went to get off the bike which requires me to pull the hitch pin out and to my surprise the loop that came with the turnbuckle was bent. This was not a minor bend either, about 45 degrees. I was able to straighten it a little bit so that I could ride home, but that means that a 1/4 inch turnbuckle is just not strong enough. I would be afraid of metal fatigue if I continued to use it.

I will go to lowes later and see what they have that is stronger but not really longer. This also complicates some of the way that I secured the turnbuckle to the socket. Since the socket is a standard 2 litre soda bottle covered in fiberglass I used a 1 inch fender washer on both the inside and outside of the bottle cap. These are almost an exact fit for most bottlecaps (some have exactly a 1 inch recessed spot so the inside fender washer snaps in place). If I go for a larger bolt assembly I will not have as much room for the fender washers. So there may be a larger than anticipated redesign forthcoming.

While no one else should actually do anything that I am writing about here, this is a stern warning about using smaller hardware for the "wrist" at least.

[Weldangrind]

There might not be a problem with 1/4" hardware, as long as the tensile strength is suitable. Most turnbuckles are only mild steel; it would be advisable to search for grade 8 stuff, although I'm not sure about availability. Stainless would be wise due to corrosion resistance, but it is also mild steel (just really difficult to drill through).

[FastDoc]

Weldandgrind,

Can a guy strengthen or temper the steel with heating and cooling? Would there be a downside? :?:

I'm surprised it bent, but this is new ground, a project that is not done very often, if at all.

Glad you enjoyed the ride, Trixter. Opinions may vary, but I think most beginner riders are best off on smooth lightly travelled pavement before going off road. Too many variables. It's like learing how to ski on moguls rather than the bunny slope.

JMHO. :D

[trixter]

There might not be a problem with 1/4" hardware, as long as the tensile strength is suitable. Most turnbuckles are only mild steel; it would be advisable to search for grade 8 stuff, although I'm not sure about availability. Stainless would be wise due to corrosion resistance, but it is also mild steel (just really difficult to drill through).

And I am shopping at lowes. There is no other place in the county that would have anything similar. Lowes only has a few different types in this regard.


Because I am welding to the clevis pin I really could do anything. Bigger regular style bolts and a coupler of some type (which kinda makes it a turn buckle) the problem is getting something that is threaded and has enough thread bite that it is not going to come undone easily. That is why I liked the turnbuckle, I could spin it and it wont easily unscrew (spinning is important for function).

I will go later today and see what they have available. Who knows I may have missed something. Given how well it held up and the fact that the 1/4 inch bolt appears to be the weakest link in the whole system I am thinking a 1/2 inch should be more than adequate. I may have to switch from fender washers to flat washers since the hole will be 50% of the diameter, but its all the same department :)

Hey its 8:20 I bet they will be opening soon I should head over there now (its 25 miles away).

[Weldangrind]

Weldandgrind,

Can a guy strengthen or temper the steel with heating and cooling? Would there be a downside? :?:

I'm not sure Doc, and I'll carefully avoid that kind of guidance. I'd hate to see something heat-treated to the point where it became brittle. We all want Trixter to get home safely.

[FastDoc]

Of course. Just asking because this is something I don't know about.

[trixter]

Weldandgrind,

Can a guy strengthen or temper the steel with heating and cooling? Would there be a downside? :?:

I'm not sure Doc, and I'll carefully avoid that kind of guidance. I'd hate to see something heat-treated to the point where it became brittle. We all want Trixter to get home safely.

it was next door, I wrote that after I was home :)

I am just afraid of future metal fatigue. I got a 3/8 inch turnbuckle to replace the 1/4 inch. I got extra fiberglass to strengthen the socket as well.



Now the bad news, while at lowes I stopped at a bike repair shop that was near by and got a kill switch. I took the starter controll panel apart (xp200) and there was a plastic bit that fell out. Took me a while to identify where it came from but its what holds the throttle cable in place. I think it was already broken but I cant prove that and the only way I would know about it is if I took it apart (unauthorized repairs). The claim is likely to be that I damaged it putting the clamp on (it was on the other end).

So now I need a new throttle grip. Any recommendations? remember I want to shorten the rotation (ie increase the diameter of the plastic part that should have been metal that the cables connect to). I need the outside diameter of the grip to be roughly the same. The clamp that I got will not tolerate a grip that is much thicker. I do not care about style, its going to be covered. I do not care about comfort I wont be touching it.

I literally only need the cheapest but good quality (metal preferred) throttle grip that is compatible with this bike and has a lower amount of turning required.

[trixter]

I called jp motorsports to see if they knew of anything compatible and they said nothing they know if is. So I will try the ninja 250 trick and super glue a thin sheet of plastic on the inside of the throttle tube where the cable goes against. This increases the diameter slightly which in turn means a faster cable pull, which in turn reduces the rotation that is required to go from closed to open.

sigh I wanted to ride a little more although I probably wouldnt be able to until tomorrow now its looking like a few days to a week :(

[trixter]

Of course. Just asking because this is something I don't know about.

What I know, and it is not much, when you heat metal and give it a temper its really bad to try to do it again. That tends to make it more brittle. I heard this in relation to making a sword, which is why Japanese artisans back in the day would work the metal constantly, sometimes rolling it for days straight until they had it the way they wanted it. Besides I do not have a crucible or a blast furnace to get it to a high enough temperature. The part that bent was threaded as well. It was the "bolt" that was welded to the clevis pin.

[trixter]

Btw this is the throttle mod I was speaking about, it was zipties not a sheet of plastic - well ok basically the same thing. It might be of interest to some of you who want less twist for the same vroom.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26270

[Weldangrind]

Thanks for the link. I'm not registered there, so I can't see the pics. Have you considered a two-stroke throttle?

[trixter]

Thanks for the link. I'm not registered there, so I can't see the pics. Have you considered a two-stroke throttle?

Well according to JP Motorsports there is no other throttle tube that will fit on the qlink. That being said I think they are referring to the control box that covers where the cables are. I cant imagine how nothing else would fit on a 7/8 bar would be true other than the part that is covered by the control box.

As for the images they do not show much. The description is what matters. Basically you cut a length of zip tie. Sand it a bit so the glue adheres better. Clean the throttle tube from grease and all. Super glue the zip tie around the tube in the path the throttle cable will take. Relube and reassemble. This lets you go from a > 50% throttle to a < 50% at least on a ninja 250 - same concept would apply on all bikes that have a throttle tube I just dont know if the percentages would directly apply since its a matter of outer diameter of the tube where the cable goes against.

Some people have even suggested (in that thread at least) layering two zip ties where one is only on part of the throttle. This gives you a variable pull so that its lower at the begining of the throttle but more aggressive at the end which is keyed to where the power band is.


I have zip ties and I have super glue, and I will have a disposable throttle tube Friday when the new one gets here. I think I will test it on the broken one which is usable but I do not want to rely on it, although I did go on a 25 mile ride today and got it to 45mph uphill cant wait to see what I can do when I fix the throttle.

This may be an essential mod for the prosthesis since I can never get to WOT in the stock form.



As for the front brake, the master cylinder arrives tomorrow. I will play with that a bit. I called Rekluse earlier today and they could not find a part number but were more than helpful in telling me its a magura 9.5mm master cylinder they use and gave me the dimensions of the reservoir. Their "clutch override" replaces the cover to that master cylinder, so if I can get one with a bore size the way I want it then that would work out well.


http://www.cyclebuy.com/shopping/rekluse/images_brakes/2finger.jpg


The guy at Rekluse also told me about Clake (http://www.clake.com.au) which makes a dual lever system, although it requires 2 hydraulic things to control. The left most part controls the clutch and the right part the brake. You can work one or both as you need.

http://www.clake.com.au/images/faq1.jpg

[FastDoc]

It sounds like the Rekluse people are trying to help. Thats nice to see in a company.

I am interested in your throttle tube mod. God knows you will need WOT on a 200. The only downside is that fine adjustments may be more difficult to modulate but it's not like you are going to get bucked off. :D

I am glad to hear you are enjoying the ride so far. Be safe.

Bill

[trixter]

It sounds like the Rekluse people are trying to help. Thats nice to see in a company.

I am interested in your throttle tube mod. God knows you will need WOT on a 200. The only downside is that fine adjustments may be more difficult to modulate but it's not like you are going to get bucked off. :D


I will post some stuff about it. This can be a handy mod for regular folk as well. The issue with the ninja 250 specifically is that to go from closed to WOT you have to regrip because the throttle rotation is too far. This is unsafe to do and just annoying. It seems to me that there is about the same rotation in the qlink, meaning many people may never get to WOT while riding. A $0.05 fix could be interesting.

You do lose some fine control over the throttle, or rather its harder to adjust it as fine since you are pulling the cable faster. This just means smaller adjustments have the same results as stock. Riders will just have to relearn how much throttle is enough for their needs. Just rotate a little slower. I doubt it will take most people more than a few twists to be recalibrated.

[trixter]

It sounds like the Rekluse people are trying to help. Thats nice to see in a company.


Yeah the rekluse people were super helpful. I recommend em just based on customer service (I havent bought any products so I cant say if their stuff is of good quality, but they probably would not still be around if they had horrible quality). Prices are not unfair either.



I am interested in your throttle tube mod. God knows you will need WOT on a 200. The only downside is that fine adjustments may be more difficult to modulate but it's not like you are going to get bucked off. :D


I will post some stuff about it. This can be a handy mod for regular folk as well. The issue with the ninja 250 specifically is that to go from closed to WOT you have to regrip because the throttle rotation is too far. This is unsafe to do and just annoying. It seems to me that there is about the same rotation in the qlink, meaning many people may never get to WOT while riding. A $0.05 fix could be interesting.

You do lose some fine control over the throttle, or rather its harder to adjust it as fine since you are pulling the cable faster. This just means smaller adjustments have the same results as stock. Riders will just have to relearn how much throttle is enough for their needs. Just rotate a little slower. I doubt it will take most people more than a few twists to be recalibrated.

[trixter]

About that master cylinder.

I do not know if this is normal practice for the company, or if they will try to make it right. I ordered an item listed as "new unopened in original packaging". I got a scratched lever (like whatever it was previously on was dropped), brake fluid still in it, solids in the brake fluid that oxidized parts of the reservoir, and it appears that the solids are in the piston which may or may not require a rebuild. I have asked to return it with all shipping in both directions refunded as well since it was not my fault they listed a used item as new.

With that said, on this particular bike (xp200) that will not fit anyway. If the item was bought by my error I would have just accepted the loss, but ... I sent an email late today so they may not respond until tomorrow.


I am looking at the rekluse system more and more, it seems the only viable cost effective solution to the problem with the front brake. The downside is that I am locked into a particular master cylinder system, and Magura is not getting back to me quickly. I may just but the rekluse "z-start clutch override" which retails for about $80 and see if I can take it to a larger shop that might have parts that I can compare to see what a good fit would be.

I have almost not heard from qlink either, and will have to call them during the day tomorrow. Does anyone know what the master cylinder bore size is for the qlink xp200? I am going to guess its 16-19mm, but I really do not know.



I redid my socket with the larger turnbuckle. Did a bit extra fiberglass too since I did not want the socket to be the weakest link in the system. It works well, although there is more resistance to rotation with the larger bolt although I may have put too much anti-seize grease on the threads. Additionally it is slightly longer and I did notice that a little but it is not so much that it twists my body making it unsafe or uncomfortable. It is about 1 inch too long in total. Since I am using "off the shelf" components that is not bad.


Finally I will test the throttle tube mod tomorrow since my replacement is due friday. I want to try to get some riding time in before I replace it and if it works well I plan on doing it to the new one. I got some grease today so that I can relube everything before reassembly. I will document that mod if it works out well.

[Weldangrind]

I'd be grateful for a short vid that shows the articualtion of the throttle with the turnbuckle device.

[trixter]

I'd be grateful for a short vid that shows the articualtion of the throttle with the turnbuckle device.

send me a camera and I will see what I can do :P

I think I have something that can make a suitable video, I have never tested it but I will try. The problem of course is holding the camera while rotating the throttle, angles would be bad and all that. It may have to wait until I am at my friends house.

[Weldangrind]

Sure, no rush. I bought a cheap tripod for such projects, and I think it was only a few bucks at Princess Auto (much like Harbor Freight). I just use a 5mp Sony digi cam set on video. It's old, but it works well enough.

[SpudRider]

I'd be grateful for a short vid that shows the articualtion of the throttle with the turnbuckle device.
X2! I would enjoy seeing a video, also. :)

Spud :)

[trixter]

Ok I will try to make a video. Will post to youtube and write something up about the newer stronger turnbuckle. The new prosthesis works great, no more fear of it bending and ultimately snapping :)

[trixter]

The throttle mod is pretty good. 1 2.5 or so inch zip tie super glued to the throttle tube makes it about a 1/4 turn throttle. I will more fully document this when the new one arrives.

On a side note the other throttle cable connector broke today somehow. I am thinking that either this tube is a dud or there is something seriously wrong with the design of the throttle tubes for the xp200s. You would never really notice if you dont take the ignition control panel off because that will hold the cables in place even if this does break.


So by the end of the weekend I plan on having a video showing the throttle grip and photos showing the xp200 throttle tube mod for a smaller diameter turn. The video is likely going to be on the modded throttle unless I get some free time later today to shoot it.

[trixter]

As for the front brake, the master cylinder arrives tomorrow. I will play with that a bit. I called Rekluse earlier today and they could not find a part number but were more than helpful in telling me its a magura 9.5mm master cylinder they use and gave me the dimensions of the reservoir. Their "clutch override" replaces the cover to that master cylinder, so if I can get one with a bore size the way I want it then that would work out well.


I did some digging and the Suzuki DR200SE front master cylinder is 12.7mm. This means that a 9.5 will be a softer pull and require more lever travel to get the same braking. They open in 30 minutes and I am going to order direct. They also do not list the item on their page anymore and Charles (guy at Rekluse I spoke to said they dont sell the z-start stuff anymore). I know they have some in the shop because while on the phone with him he went into the shop and got one to look for a part number for me. Really nice guy, and that is why I am going to try to go direct - they get slightly more profit because there is not the dealer markdown.

This is turning into a saga :)


I think I will have time later today so I will try to take the photos.

[FastDoc]

Its an interesting saga, and I'm sure the groundwork you are doing will be helpful to other people who read about your adventure. I think the master cylinder will work out fine. Also you are wise to try to deal with people on the phone rather than just a website. With a good smaller company you can get some good results that way. Sometimes it's best to talk to people. Who wou;d have thought? 8)

[trixter]

I think the master cylinder will work out fine. Also you are wise to try to deal with people on the phone rather than just a website.

well they were nice to me so I wanted to be nice to them and save them the dealer discount. it was $186 incl shipping compared to $189 for the kit that includes a brake line and all that. The price to me is about the same although I dont get spare parts to clutter my garage with :P

This is what I ordered http://www.bustersdirtshop.com/product.php?productid=6733&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Froogle

I should have it Monday.


Now to get my money back for the used master cylinder that was sold as new :/