Rx3s
 

has anyone on this forum had any experience with the new RX3S twin? I saw a YouTube video by a guy who lived in China and he seemed to rate the RX3S better than the RX4. Just curious, as CSC seem to be very quiet on this subject, obviously because they need to sell their remaining stock of RX3 bikes. Their guy, Joe Berk, is at a bike show in China at the moment and it will be interesting to see what he posts from there on his blog. So far very little of interest, mostly odd looking customs. early days though.

A twin RX3? I haven't heard of it till now. Sounds interesting. Is it still a 250??? I wonder if they'll beef it to 300 or so to go head to head with the Kawalski?

The RX3s is a 380cc twin.
Very much along the lines of the RX3 and the (upcoming?) RX4 450cc single, but not entirely the same.

You can take a look here (longish video ...)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMvhOyMuFR4


Regards,
Juanro

Also,

http://www.chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=19967

The RX3s has been discussed by Joe and Steve at CSC. They are not going to bring the twin in to the US. Remember, CSC had to spend big bucks to get the 250cc single through the EPA/DOT certification process. That cost must be spread out over a lot of RX3 sales in order to make any sense. CSC does plan to bring in the RX4 (450cc) so that's another chunk of change already committed. It is not reasonable to expect them to eat another certification in order to cannibalize RX3 sales....where they already have the sunk cost of spare parts and such.

Peter Y.

The RX3S is similar to the CB400X that is mainly an Asian bike. We didn't get it over here.

thanks for the links. The English guy testing both bikes for ten days seems to prefer the RX3S for various reasons, whilst admitting the RX4 was obviously more powerful. The conundrum will be if the prices butt up too close to the Jap bikes eg Versys300X, will the CSC business model hold up? Until the quality issue, real or just perceived, is overcome they are reliant on value as the major selling point. I hope they bring in the RX4, and sooner rather than later (I am too old to wait for very long) as I would be interested in it. I am more interested in a sixth gear and a more relaxed 70mph than I am about ultimate speed. Here's hoping.

unfortunately Peter is right, and due to whatever certification/registration/approval matrix required we will never keep up with the latest to come from Zongshen.
Wanted so much to be leaving in 8 weeks on a new RX4 but that isn't happening,
Having buried a RX3 into the earth as hard as one could and handing her off (sold at loss) to someone hopeful of a rebirth I
moved on to bigger and better things
Like a 20 + yr design air and oil cooled single with 5 measley gears that is know for RTW travel with nominal issues, a DR650
Total cost is a bit more than the RX4, with the mods, but not by a LOT, as I got the DR used with less than 1K miles for <$4K
So...while I embrace what CSC is doing(and won't forget the break-downs that Gerry and Steve helped me out of) , IMO it's not the best timing for what I need.
Merry ( my beloved RX3) will be sorely missed...she was a great bike and a LOT of fun.
I hope Sunny (the DR's name) will be up to the challenge the RX3 left
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...psqvxxcegk.jpg

a nice bike and I wish you success with your venture, whatever it is. Last year I sold my 2013 KLR650, which was very well kitted out for travel. I did this because the bike weighed too much and was too top heavy for me when riding anything "knarly" off road. My riding buddy dumped his similarly equipped KLR spectacularly, fortunately sustaining only sprains and bruises. With my help he was able to ride the bike out to paved roads, but only just. We are both in our seventies and neither could pick our bikes up in an adverse camber situation without help. So I decided to sell and bought a 2015 Hawk 250 for $700, thinking it was 200lbs lighter and that I didn't worry so much if it got scarred or even mutilated should I dump it.
That strategy worked very well for exploring the local by-ways and single track roads but the Hawk is not a comfortable highway cruiser and getting to places further away to ride, involves trailering the bike to a suitable starting point and then riding. This isn't bad but it would be so much easier to just get on a bike and ride to wherever.
I have looked at a Versys 300X (my local and very friendly Kawasaki dealer has one) but I have never liked the small Kawasaki engine as it is too dependent on stratospheric revs to get any power. I think Kawasaki will bring the new 400cc engine to the Versys, it is just a case of when, and how much compared to the RX4. I have ridden an RX3 and liked the low seat height but it really needed a tall 6th gear and just a little more power. 5000miles at 8000rpm is not my idea of a relaxed ride. 8000rpm is frenetic in any ones book. Will it do it is beyond doubt. Do you want to? Hmmm, at 70 odd years old, not if I don't have to. Hence my interest in the RX3S and the RX4.
This is, BTW, an excellent forum and has been a great help to me in my initial foray into Chinese bikes. Thanks to all.

Having both a Hawk and a DR, I can honestly say that they're both amazing bikes, but each in their own right. The Hawk is actually my go-to bike when I'm just running errands around town (I was on it yesterday to go to the post office and mail out a housewarming gift, then to the bank, then the long way home). The DR is my long distance cruiser when I want to go somewhere and [I]maybe[I] get off the beaten path. My DR is set up for a ride on the Trans-America Trail, but that fell through when my little sister moved from Spokane Washington to Ramstein Germany. Personally, I think the price-point and ease of ownership for the Hawk are huge selling points. Suzuki parts are expensive to replace, and while there's a cult following for the DR, as well as tons of aftermarket parts, they aren't much cheaper, if cheaper at all. I haven't had to replace anything on the Hawk in the 2000-odd miles I've got on it, but I've already looked into parts and even if everything goes bang at once, it's not like the wife and I will need to eat mac and cheese for a month to fix it. I think that even though they're technically in the same "class," they're different bikes for different purposes. Just my morning thoughts on the matter...

Goshawk, I'm in your age range and sold my Stelvio for exactly the same reason. About a month ago I got to ride a new Ninja 400 while at Daytona bike week. That engine was delightfully smooth and quick. As with any small displacement engine, you do not find any torque in the lower rev range. When I asked if the 400 twin might be used in the Versay the answer was evasive...like they wanted to say 'yes' but could not make an announcement. With that said, I'm not sure that engine would be my choice for crawling through rough terrain because it really needs to spin in order to have the torque required. On the highway the 400 was fantastic.

I read somewhere that Kawasaki had ceased production of the 250/300cc engine, so it would seem inevitable that the new 400cc unit will find its way into the Versys300X chassis. A critical point being whether Kawasaki do, as they did with the 300cc Ninja and retain the old price for the new bike.

Emerikol, I have nothing against either the DR650 or the KLR650. It is just a case of getting less able to handle them confidently, not to mention surviving any "get offs". I have seemingly lost that "bounce factor".

I certainly didn't think you had a beef, and I took no offense. Just another voice piping up in the babble, as it were. I agree 100% about being able to confidently handle a bike. You can go to any track anywhere in the world and instantly pick out the novices, the ones who are scared of the machine (which everyone should be to some degree), and those who are WAY overbiked. The gear is the same, the colors are just as flashy, the difference is always in how confidently they ride. When a rider is tense, it always translates into the riding style. I'm pushing 40 now, and with a newborn and wife back at the house, I'm much more concerned with the bad things that can happen when the rubber side doesn't stay down. I'm searching out more technical stuff lately, and a lot less full throttle, hair on fire type of riding. I find that slower speeds and more technical terrain mean things just bruise during a fall, instead of break. Who'd of thought? :lmao:

I am sitting on the fence trying to decide if I buy the RX3 or go with the Kawasaki twins. When I heard that there might be a RX3S with 380cc twin I thought OK, maybe hang on for that. But from the sounds of it that bike won't be coming here. If that is the case that there are no plans to bring it then I will probably just pinch my pennies a little longer and wait for that 400cc Versys. I think it is all but a forgone conclusion that the 400 is coming to the Versys and everything I am reading on the 400 Ninja makes it sound like a great power plant for a small ADV bike.

So I keep looking and thinking about the RX3. I guess if the price were right maybe I could be nudged to buy one, but without a too good to pass up deal I can wait for the 400cc twin to land in a Versys. I have a bike to ride while I am patiently waiting so no pressure to do something rash. :-)

Malcom, a high spinning twin is certainly delightful while you are on it in the upper part of the power band. I loved the Ninja 400 for that. If you want to plunk along on a fire trail at much slower speed the torque of a thumper is much more desirable. The RX3 benefits from being a thumper even though the maximum torque is absent until about 4K. You can still thump along at walking speed in 1st gear. I have done exactly that. Somewhere in this mix of offering you will find the combination that fits your needs. Ain't it great to have so many choices!

Peter Y.

That challenge is finding that balance between what makes a decent road bike and what makes a decent fire roads and off road bike. If you can get that torque off of the bottom of the rpm spectrum then you are golden. Like you said the twins "typically" don't produce the power until you have them spun up some so that compromises the off road walk along speed. Maybe the RX4 will bring that blend of road power but chug along ability?

I suspect we will see the Versys400X before we see the RX4, more's the pity. My hope was that the RX4 was imminent, but that seems unlikely. I agree about low down torque being better for "Plonking" through technical stuff, but I could live with the 400cc Versys on fire roads and jeep trails, especially if Kawasaki alter the gearing on the Versys 400X as they did with the 300cc version. My wish would be for a six speed box with an ultra low first and an overdrive sixth, which would give me the best of both worlds.
I did try a TL200 for the more knarly single track stuff but unless I stood on the pegs all day my ancient hips could not tolerate being so scrunched up for more than a few minutes. I also had a Honda NX250 for a few years and really liked many aspects of it , but it was not a highway bike and quickly became tiring at highway speeds. It would go, virtually vibration free, all day at these revs but I couldn't. My foot kept reaching for another gear to calm the revs down a little. In the end it became too valuable (it was pristine) to drop and so was not ridden very much. The search goes on.

As soon as they announce the 400 Versys then the entire market may finally take notice that this is the sweet spot. If the RX4 can beat Kawasaki to the punch that could make some serious waves and help these bikes gain more traction.

Here is a video of the RX4 and the exhaust routing and the radiator plumbing all seem like an after thought. The exhaust is very exposed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_9ad03oVGE

Malcolm, I noticed that the RX4 has a radial brake caliper and an improved radiator fill. The cooling looked reasonable and more accessible than the RX3. As for the exhaust, having it low keeps it from burning your clothing (that has already happened to me) but does expose it to rock damage. I'm OK with that routing. Since the RX4 is still 'under development' it's too early to cast judgement. I'm very interested in this product and when CSC brings it to the US I think it will be a real hit.

Peter Y.

Timing and price will decide its success. If Kawasaki bring in a Versys 400cc, later this year, at the 300cc price, as they did with the 400cc Ninja, CSC will be between a rock and a hard place. If the RX4 is priced too close to the Versys, people will go for the Versys for all sorts of reasons, namely: re-sale value, dealership availability, a well known "big three" manufacturer, warranty etc. The CSC business model works as long as the price difference is great enough to attract buyers who want a bargain. It appeals to those who can wield a wrench and have some idea about how the bike works. If the RX4 is priced similarly to the RX3 they could do well with it, but then who would buy the RX3?
Not my problem thankfully, but like Peter Y. I am very interested to see when, and at what price the RX4 emerges. Not holding my breath however.

Zongshen has to earn the reputation that the Japanese bikes did when they first entered the world market place. They were known for cheap stuff, but the quality wasn't there. Enough people saw value in affordable stuff that Japan sent to other markets and the quality improved. Thus their reputation improved with the quality of the product and eventually they could command better pricing for themselves.

Zongshen hasn't done that yet in the US market so they have to keep the price very attractive and continue to refine the product. The pricing on the RX3 has already jumped so much from the introduction price that it is getting to be a harder sell for the new bike. Any more price increases and I think other established competitors will take those sales.

So I agree I think CSC and Zongshen may be between a rock and a hard place here because these manufacturers aren't building in Japan, but in cost effective markets that can put pressure on pricing. The Versys X is a good example of pricing being held down by manufacture in Thailand. So this is going to be hard for Zongshen to have a huge cost advantage to get that traction needed.

It think it is clear that the race is on, timing and pricing may be the deciding factor if the Zongshen/CSC can gain ground on the established players. It is looking pretty tough. If the RX4 and RX3S were shipping this year it would be a huge momentum builder for them. But they slip into next year and it looks like they are facing a pretty strong head wind. I am hoping they can pull it off because we need more bikes and more choices. I love what the RX3 brings to the table for design and features but they really need that RX3S and RX4 to continue the momentum.

The 2018 Versys 300X is a pretty interesting competitor to the RX3. MSRP (not including the shipping, setup, dealer prep, and other BS) is $5399 for non ABS, $5699 for ABS. Add in $429.95 for hard bags, $99.95 for top case, $214.95 for crash bars and you now have what the RX3 comes with. That's a total of about $6444. CSC is $4195 for the same thing. Don't forget that the Kawi dealer is going to add in his fluff so it's really much more than $1200 difference OTD.

And the Kawi dealer isn't going to take you to Baja or other cool places on the planet for free either. Thats got to be worth another $3000-$4500. just saying rj

I have a hard time comparing the two, RX3 and 300X. The Kawi is a twin and the CSC is a single.

RX3 25HP 385Lbs 250cc 84mph

RX3S 27HP 407Lbs 380cc 87mph

RX4 32HP 450Lbs 450cc 97mph

I really don't see why anyone would be drooling over an RX3S.

The RX4 exhaust is in the perfect position to protect the rear brake so I don't know why anyone is complaining about it lol.

I think those figures for the RX3S and RX4 are KW, not HP.
They're more like 36HP and 43HP

Perhaps, but if that was the case wouldn't the RX3S also have a much higher top speed? I know the HP of the RX3S is pathetic for the engine size but it is also one of the first dual cylinder engines produced from China so it may just need a lot of refinement. If the numbers are correct then I totally understand why CSC has no interest of bringing it to North America.

Most "top speed" indicated in the specs are... well... estimates.
Anyway; as this bike is too far in the future, all of this is no more than coffee table talk.

I don't think it's as far in the future as you think, both bikes prices have already been released. Plus the British expat who's not affiliated with Zongshen tested top speed then quoted specs. If the specs were wrong I think he would have pointed it out. I expect to see these bikes listed on Zongshens website in a few weeks. The RX3 was available in China for about two years before it ever seen American shores.

I don't focus much on top speed on bikes of this class, but the RX3S and RX4 top speeds may be more limitation to the gear and sprocket selection. The issue with the exhaust looks fine as long as your not going to be banging anything on the bottom of the bike.... LOL

Yes but it's nice if the adventure bike can do freeway speed on an incline with a headwind or passenger. I think a 250cc is not quite enough but not far off either. 380cc should be more than enough for these situations.

The more I think about it the more I agree that it must be KW not HP.

The fixation on engine size is understandable, but a bit frustrating. It tends to dominate bike discussions at the expense of everything else.

I think CSC have stated that the RX3 is the right bike for the US market for the forseeable future; it's still enormous value for money (remember what you get out of the box) and Jo Berk has said 250 is enough for the majority of people that try it.

There's a natural tendency to think just a bit more will solve all your problems, but with that comes more weight, more complexity, more cooling, and more fuel consumption. In the case of a Chinese manufacturer, a whole host of unknowns as they're not experienced at OEM engine development. At least not yet.

It just really depends on what you're after from the bike. I think a 450cc bike would bridge a lot of gaps the RX3 has left open, especially in more grunt for trail riding and much more relaxed on the open highway.

I'll respectfully disagree here. The Chinese have been building millions of bikes each year for quite a while now. Zongshen alone built some 1.2 million in 2016 or 2017. Granted Zongshen did form a partnership with Norton to develop a powerplant but I think that was for something around 650cc displacement, much larger than what the Chinese normally build on their own.

Oh, finally located a source for the Norton deal: auto.ndtv.com/news/norton-to-design-650-cc-engine-for-chinese-motorcycle-firm-zongshen-1731390

Our NC250 engine is not a clone of anyone else's design. The NC250 is used by other, smaller, bike manufacturers such as GasGas so I think the design is pretty good on its own.

In fact, one can come to the conclusion, looking over Aliexpress for example, that -other- chinese manufacturers are licencing the building of this engine, or at least for many parts of it.

It is really hard for a manufacturer to offer all things to all people. If they were to make 1st gear a really granny gear for tractoring over stuff offroad then street riders are complaining your shifting to second gear really early. On the other end of it if they were to put a really tall 6th to make highway riding more relaxed then there is the compromise that if there is any incline or wind your going to be downshifting a lot to try and keep the bike in the sweet spot for power. You need a 7th and 8th gear to keep the engine in the sweet spot in varied riding conditions and to be able to move up into the higher speed demands of the freeway.

The RX3 is built to do mostly road with some offroad so they tried to set it up for that. As always you can't make everyone happy.

I agree I think the 380cc and the 450cc close that gap on the higher speed end of things and could provide more grunt down low. So simple fix, just give us 8 gears and we will be happy right? :lmao:

Maybe the 8 speed transmission with the 2 or 3 speed transfer case and this might work for some of us!

Every bike has compromises, especially adventure bikes. You simply can't build a bike thats great off-road and also great at touring but that's what the end goal of an adventure bike is. 250cc engines are underpowered for freeways and a slightly bigger engine (300cc or so) should be able to get better gas millage at speeds with little sacrifice to city gas mileage.

My idea of the perfect adventure bike would be a single cylinder engine (300-400cc) capable of freeway speeds with ease while keeping the bike as light as possible for off-road. That being said I'm a bigger younger guy who has no problems picking a bike up on the side of a trail. Someone who's smaller or older could have a different idea of the perfect adventure bike. I'm still waiting for someone to build my ideal bike.

Indeed. I actually really like our RX3's regarding size, comfort and handling. It's about the perfect bike for where we live and how we ride. The only thing I'm wild about the bike is the lack of low-end. I believe that another 100 or so cc's would probably cure those issues. That's all I'm saying.......
I'm hoping the 300cc kit I'm about to install will give it a little more down low.