Honda vs China

ChipToothy · 08-04-2018, 11:06 PM

Was checking out the greener grass on the other side. Was surprised it was ready to explode at 74 mph. 25 HP is a boss load more than what we have, 10 to 15 more horses from what I can tell. Considering the price differences for not much more bike the clones really aren't sounding that bad.

RedCrowRides · 08-05-2018, 09:34 AM

The thing I have noticed is ,most China Bike bashers tend to take the "they are china bikes so they are trash ,cause Honda is better " route.The thing is ,all of the popular China bikes engines are solidly based on older but still solid Honda designs- So, they are saying either Hondas are also trash because thats what the base design for the China bikes is, or defeating / disproving their own argument .Also, chances are that every China Bike bashers cellphone, TV , PC or laptop ,and many more things in their home were either outright made in China or contain 90% components made in China, and yet I assume they purchased them because they thought they were " good" quality and reliability. The fact is,yes the China bikes have issues ,but much less so than 5 or 10 years ago, they are really improved recently, and you can correct all of these issues easily and economically and still be far, far, under the cost of a Japan bike. Of course you are not going to get the same materials and build quality while paying 1/4 to 1/3 rd for a China bike as opposed to the cost for a Japanese bike, I get that.But you will get something that properly cared for will be dependable, reliable, fun, and economical that will be sufficient for the vast majority of Riders. So, the question comes down to are Japanese bikes 3 or 4 times better ,because thats the only way to justify the 3 to 4 times cost - the answer is almost always universally ,No. Yes, they ARE marginally better ,of course they are.,but not by enough, and few of us despite our wishful thinking , are Riders of the caliber that can routinely push a bike to the extent that a 10% difference ( or even a 25% difference) is ever going to be apparent to, or beneficial to, us in any realistic way. There simply is no longer a huge, obvious power /handling difference between China bikes and Japanese bikes in most cases, certainly not 3x - 4x difference , as reflected in the cost. I guess I'm saying I think myself I am willing to sacrifice even a 25% reduction in performance i will realistically never be affected by ,for a 75% decrease in cost to purchase.,especially when whatever reduction in performance is fixable via inexpensive aftermarket parts.

roundhouse · 08-05-2018, 09:59 AM

I just don't care what people think. Yeah if someone gave me a honda I would take it. But I would not buy one. I could buy a Hawk and a used FZ07 for that $$$ and be way happier.

Digger · 08-05-2018, 10:07 AM

I was talking to a friend at work about my Hawk and Tao Tao scooter. I told him if either the scooter or the Hawk were abused by kids they would have problems. He replied " I have kids it just takes a little longer to destroy a Honda"

ChipToothy · 08-05-2018, 02:47 PM

The horizonsunlimited.com blog I think shows how much these little 239cc machines can actually do. I’ve seen others where for example the Susuki 650R had to have the clutch pack for example replaced in the middle of the rainforest so they all fail one way or another when taken to extremes.

ChrisWNY · 08-05-2018, 04:58 PM

Honda makes a very well-engineered and durable motorcycle, no question. Is it $4k-$5k better than a somewhat comparable Hawk? It would be tough to convince me to spend that much extra on something that essentially serves the same purpose. A 250cc dual sport motorcycle is not a good choice for cruising long periods of time at 65mph+ speeds on a highway, just not built for it. I've ridden a lot of Honda ATV's and motorcycles in my day (I have a family member who is a plastics engineer in Honda's ATV division, so I have more access to Honda toys than most). I did consider buying a used 2016 CRF250L (650 miles on the odometer) before I pulled the trigger on a Hawk. The owner was asking about $3800 for it...I couldn't justify spending that much on a niche (used) dual sport that would be more or less used for short trips on roads and tooling around off-road on trails. I called up the family member and he said the CRF250L definitely lacks power in the 55mph+ range, and he more or less talked me into giving the Hawk a shot instead (coming from a guy who works for Honda!). Considering I only have 4-5 months or so per year of decent riding weather and no need to make long trips very often, the Hawk has served its purpose well so far. I expect some parts to fail eventually from wear & tear, but nothing that would remotely put me in to the $3800 range (even if the engine blows up and I have to buy a new one). Anything with moving parts and a gas engine can experience wear & tear failure. While you can't really tweak a Hawk to perform as well as a $5000+ fuel-injected, liquid-cooled Honda with ABS, a few hundred $$ on aftermarket parts and time spent on improving performance and durability on the Hawk over the long term can raise it up to the level of a reliable, decent performer. Parts are easy to find and the Hawk (this includes other China-manufactured motorcycles...TT, Bashan, etc.) which makes it a solid DIY tweak-able 250cc bike.

PeaceSportsAtlanta · 08-08-2018, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisWNY

Honda makes a very well-engineered and durable motorcycle, no question. Is it $4k-$5k better than a somewhat comparable Hawk? It would be tough to convince me to spend that much extra on something that essentially serves the same purpose. A 250cc dual sport motorcycle is not a good choice for cruising long periods of time at 65mph+ speeds on a highway, just not built for it. I've ridden a lot of Honda ATV's and motorcycles in my day (I have a family member who is a plastics engineer in Honda's ATV division, so I have more access to Honda toys than most). I did consider buying a used 2016 CRF250L (650 miles on the odometer) before I pulled the trigger on a Hawk. The owner was asking about $3800 for it...I couldn't justify spending that much on a niche (used) dual sport that would be more or less used for short trips on roads and tooling around off-road on trails. I called up the family member and he said the CRF250L definitely lacks power in the 55mph+ range, and he more or less talked me into giving the Hawk a shot instead (coming from a guy who works for Honda!). Considering I only have 4-5 months or so per year of decent riding weather and no need to make long trips very often, the Hawk has served its purpose well so far. I expect some parts to fail eventually from wear & tear, but nothing that would remotely put me in to the $3800 range (even if the engine blows up and I have to buy a new one). Anything with moving parts and a gas engine can experience wear & tear failure. While you can't really tweak a Hawk to perform as well as a $5000+ fuel-injected, liquid-cooled Honda with ABS, a few hundred $$ on aftermarket parts and time spent on improving performance and durability on the Hawk over the long term can raise it up to the level of a reliable, decent performer. Parts are easy to find and the Hawk (this includes other China-manufactured motorcycles...TT, Bashan, etc.) which makes it a solid DIY tweak-able 250cc bike.

Personally (speaking as Jeff and not Peace Sports) as someone who works at a Chinese importer, I would say you need to ask if you can find parts for the chinese model. If the answer is yes and you can turn your own wrench, then the answer is go Chinese all day because they are cheap to buy and insure and most bikes from China aren't too advanced to make it difficult to repair yet. If the answer is no, then you need to ask is it a daily rider/only source of transportation? If the answer is yes, I would go Japanese just to be able to get parts to get you back on the road quickly if you need it for work or what not. Otherwise, the additional savings of a Chinese brand is usually worth it if keeping the bike stock or close to stock.

We had an employee here who got hired without a car and he bought a scooter and daily drove it for like 6 months rain or shine. I think in that time span he took the bus only 3 or 4 days when he was trying to figure out a charging issue but otherwise his 7 mile commute to work on his 50cc Talon got the job done and saved him lots of money over that 6 month period. Like $7 a week in fuel and no insurance money due to being a 50cc.

ChipToothy · 08-08-2018, 10:06 PM

I guess I have 2,000 miles on mine so far with the stock chain and stock tubes still on it. If it had a faster engine I would have probably close to zero interest in ever getting rid of it until an Italian super bike just up and lands in my drive way. The Zongshen ADV bike is looking like a pretty sweet deal. For the same 4 grand however you can get a 3 year old 450 with a service warranty so it's kinda a bad choice for the price point. Hmmmm.

08-04-2018, 11:06 PM	#1
ChipToothy Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 819	Honda vs China Was checking out the greener grass on the other side. Was surprised it was ready to explode at 74 mph. 25 HP is a boss load more than what we have, 10 to 15 more horses from what I can tell. Considering the price differences for not much more bike the clones really aren't sounding that bad.
	2

08-05-2018, 09:34 AM	#2
RedCrowRides Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: Florida Posts: 759	The thing I have noticed is ,most China Bike bashers tend to take the "they are china bikes so they are trash ,cause Honda is better " route.The thing is ,all of the popular China bikes engines are solidly based on older but still solid Honda designs- So, they are saying either Hondas are also trash because thats what the base design for the China bikes is, or defeating / disproving their own argument .Also, chances are that every China Bike bashers cellphone, TV , PC or laptop ,and many more things in their home were either outright made in China or contain 90% components made in China, and yet I assume they purchased them because they thought they were " good" quality and reliability. The fact is,yes the China bikes have issues ,but much less so than 5 or 10 years ago, they are really improved recently, and you can correct all of these issues easily and economically and still be far, far, under the cost of a Japan bike. Of course you are not going to get the same materials and build quality while paying 1/4 to 1/3 rd for a China bike as opposed to the cost for a Japanese bike, I get that.But you will get something that properly cared for will be dependable, reliable, fun, and economical that will be sufficient for the vast majority of Riders. So, the question comes down to are Japanese bikes 3 or 4 times better ,because thats the only way to justify the 3 to 4 times cost - the answer is almost always universally ,No. Yes, they ARE marginally better ,of course they are.,but not by enough, and few of us despite our wishful thinking , are Riders of the caliber that can routinely push a bike to the extent that a 10% difference ( or even a 25% difference) is ever going to be apparent to, or beneficial to, us in any realistic way. There simply is no longer a huge, obvious power /handling difference between China bikes and Japanese bikes in most cases, certainly not 3x - 4x difference , as reflected in the cost. I guess I'm saying I think myself I am willing to sacrifice even a 25% reduction in performance i will realistically never be affected by ,for a 75% decrease in cost to purchase.,especially when whatever reduction in performance is fixable via inexpensive aftermarket parts. __________________ 2001 Mustang GT 2004 Sportster 2018 VADER 2020 Orion RXB250L
	5

08-05-2018, 04:58 PM	#6
ChrisWNY Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 212	Honda makes a very well-engineered and durable motorcycle, no question. Is it $4k-$5k better than a somewhat comparable Hawk? It would be tough to convince me to spend that much extra on something that essentially serves the same purpose. A 250cc dual sport motorcycle is not a good choice for cruising long periods of time at 65mph+ speeds on a highway, just not built for it. I've ridden a lot of Honda ATV's and motorcycles in my day (I have a family member who is a plastics engineer in Honda's ATV division, so I have more access to Honda toys than most). I did consider buying a used 2016 CRF250L (650 miles on the odometer) before I pulled the trigger on a Hawk. The owner was asking about $3800 for it...I couldn't justify spending that much on a niche (used) dual sport that would be more or less used for short trips on roads and tooling around off-road on trails. I called up the family member and he said the CRF250L definitely lacks power in the 55mph+ range, and he more or less talked me into giving the Hawk a shot instead (coming from a guy who works for Honda!). Considering I only have 4-5 months or so per year of decent riding weather and no need to make long trips very often, the Hawk has served its purpose well so far. I expect some parts to fail eventually from wear & tear, but nothing that would remotely put me in to the $3800 range (even if the engine blows up and I have to buy a new one). Anything with moving parts and a gas engine can experience wear & tear failure. While you can't really tweak a Hawk to perform as well as a $5000+ fuel-injected, liquid-cooled Honda with ABS, a few hundred $$ on aftermarket parts and time spent on improving performance and durability on the Hawk over the long term can raise it up to the level of a reliable, decent performer. Parts are easy to find and the Hawk (this includes other China-manufactured motorcycles...TT, Bashan, etc.) which makes it a solid DIY tweak-able 250cc bike. __________________ 2018 RPS Hawk 250cc Mods so far: 1. Mikuni VM26 Carburetor w/#115 main jet 2. 17T/45T JT sprockets 3. JT 428 X-ring chain 4. Air box mod 5. Hawk Digital Cluster 6. Aftermarket IMS shift lever 7. Performance Aftermarket Exhaust 8. 295mm Nitrogen Gas Monoshock, 20W oil front forks
	2

08-05-2018, 09:59 AM	#3
roundhouse Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: N Texas Posts: 706	I just don't care what people think. Yeah if someone gave me a honda I would take it. But I would not buy one. I could buy a Hawk and a used FZ07 for that $$$ and be way happier.
	4

08-05-2018, 10:07 AM	#4
Digger Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 64	I was talking to a friend at work about my Hawk and Tao Tao scooter. I told him if either the scooter or the Hawk were abused by kids they would have problems. He replied " I have kids it just takes a little longer to destroy a Honda"
	4

08-08-2018, 10:06 PM	#8
ChipToothy Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 819	I guess I have 2,000 miles on mine so far with the stock chain and stock tubes still on it. If it had a faster engine I would have probably close to zero interest in ever getting rid of it until an Italian super bike just up and lands in my drive way. The Zongshen ADV bike is looking like a pretty sweet deal. For the same 4 grand however you can get a 3 year old 450 with a service warranty so it's kinda a bad choice for the price point. Hmmmm.
	0