Hawk/Magician timing check

DualSport · 10-28-2018, 04:45 AM

I didn't see any threads on this, and most of what is on the net is for the original CG 125 and in foreign language.

How would a owner verify the magneto(what the CDI is using I assume), flywheel firing mark, and cam compression stroke were in sync on a Hawk/Magician? Is it even possible to make them not sync without basically breaking the flywheel, crank, cam gear, or damaging the magneto circuit?

I seem to remember something about if the flywheel nut comes loose it can mess it up either by offsetting the cam gear or the mark. Also I believe this can easily happen when using the flywheel nut to turn the engine for different things. Mine easily came loose when I was checking compression counter-clockwise, and I tightened it by going clockwise but probably not factory-torque..

I have one engine with bad compression do to chamber damage and it springs past the T| mark after hitting F| even while I have a ratchet on the flywheel. Does this indicate other damage?

pete · 10-28-2018, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DualSport

I have one engine with bad compression do to chamber damage and it springs past the T| mark after hitting F| even while I have a ratchet on the flywheel. Does this indicate other damage?

It indicates you are either on the wrong stroke..(fighting the valve springs)
or you still have the spark plug in..(fighting compression)
or both...

remove the spark plug... rotate the motor in the direction it runs..
till it goes free and rocks with out any resitance... you are then at/near
the top of the compression/ fireing stroke...then look at / aline the timing marks..

...

DualSport · 10-28-2018, 01:23 PM

Yeah I set it after valve overlap on some others and didn't notice the jump.

These engines are way different than the original CG 125.. CDI and magneto instead of "points", and I think there is no external cam timing on the original CG. These are just what I noticed without splitting the case.

I was curious if the flywheel magneto could be misaligned with the compression stroke from the flywheel nut coming loose. Maybe someone could document how you'd actually set timing on a complete re-assembly where nothing was marked prior?

timcosby · 10-28-2018, 04:08 PM

"I have one engine with bad compression do to chamber damage and it springs past the T| mark after hitting F| even while I have a ratchet on the flywheel. Does this indicate other damage?"

it is "springing" cause the spark plug is still in!

timcosby · 10-28-2018, 04:10 PM

go to youtube and find motocheez. he has a vid on valve adjustment and other things

Ariel Red Hunter · 10-28-2018, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DualSport

I didn't see any threads on this, and most of what is on the net is for the original CG 125 and in foreign language.

How would a owner verify the magneto(what the CDI is using I assume), flywheel firing mark, and cam compression stroke were in sync on a Hawk/Magician? Is it even possible to make them not sync without basically breaking the flywheel, crank, cam gear, or damaging the magneto circuit?

I seem to remember something about if the flywheel nut comes loose it can mess it up either by offsetting the cam gear or the mark. Also I believe this can easily happen when using the flywheel nut to turn the engine for different things. Mine easily came loose when I was checking compression counter-clockwise, and I tightened it by going clockwise but probably not factory-torque..

I have one engine with bad compression do to chamber damage and it springs past the T| mark after hitting F| even while I have a ratchet on the flywheel. Does this indicate other damage?

F is a few degrees before TDC, T is TDC. Springing past the T mark is caused by the compressed air in the cylinder from the compression stroke pushing the piston down after it is past TDC on the firing stroke. Even without actually firing there is enough pressure in the cylinder to 'spring it past' TDC. Many early steam boats ran on 100 lbs pressure maximum, about what your engine generates at cranking speed.

timcosby · 10-29-2018, 12:36 AM

and that "t" will come around twice. one is correct one is not.

Ariel Red Hunter · 10-29-2018, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timcosby

and that "t" will come around twice. one is correct one is not.

No, T is always correct. But T on the exhaust stroke is incorrect for valve adjustment purposes, while T is correct on the compression stroke for valve adjustment. People seem to have trouble understanding what a four stroke engine is. Simply put, the engine has to make two complete revolutions in order to fire once...ARH

timcosby · 10-29-2018, 06:28 PM

i was trying not to confuse the confused

DualSport · 10-29-2018, 07:28 PM

There is also valve overlap which is both valves opened(down) to let intake which has more pressure push out remaining exhaust after compression stroke.

I was more interested in the procedure for assembling one of these with no markings from disassembly. Aligning magneto with cam timing with F|. Again, with no reference marks besides F|. Unlike the original CG125 these have external cam timing so you can calibrate pretty much everything, and CDI is basically a dumb double-relay circuit controlled by kickstand switch and magneto..

This would also be useful for typical owners because these can go off timing with valve, flywheel, or cam timing problems and since the only reference is usually in foreign language and for the original CG 125 it'd be a big problem..

10-28-2018, 04:45 AM	#1
DualSport Join Date: Sep 2018 Posts: 173	Hawk/Magician timing check I didn't see any threads on this, and most of what is on the net is for the original CG 125 and in foreign language. How would a owner verify the magneto(what the CDI is using I assume), flywheel firing mark, and cam compression stroke were in sync on a Hawk/Magician? Is it even possible to make them not sync without basically breaking the flywheel, crank, cam gear, or damaging the magneto circuit? I seem to remember something about if the flywheel nut comes loose it can mess it up either by offsetting the cam gear or the mark. Also I believe this can easily happen when using the flywheel nut to turn the engine for different things. Mine easily came loose when I was checking compression counter-clockwise, and I tightened it by going clockwise but probably not factory-torque.. I have one engine with bad compression do to chamber damage and it springs past the T\| mark after hitting F\| even while I have a ratchet on the flywheel. Does this indicate other damage?
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10-28-2018, 04:08 PM	#4
timcosby Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: robertsdale alabama usa Posts: 1,007	"I have one engine with bad compression do to chamber damage and it springs past the T\| mark after hitting F\| even while I have a ratchet on the flywheel. Does this indicate other damage?" it is "springing" cause the spark plug is still in! __________________ 1991 harley heritage softail classic 2016 hawk kaw h1 400 tripple 13' long chopper in progress 2009 johnny pag bar hog 2004 hd electra glide ultra classic shriner edition 1997 harley davidson 1200 sportster 1972 harley davidson amf sx250
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10-28-2018, 04:10 PM	#5
timcosby Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: robertsdale alabama usa Posts: 1,007	go to youtube and find motocheez. he has a vid on valve adjustment and other things __________________ 1991 harley heritage softail classic 2016 hawk kaw h1 400 tripple 13' long chopper in progress 2009 johnny pag bar hog 2004 hd electra glide ultra classic shriner edition 1997 harley davidson 1200 sportster 1972 harley davidson amf sx250
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10-29-2018, 12:36 AM	#7
timcosby Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: robertsdale alabama usa Posts: 1,007	and that "t" will come around twice. one is correct one is not. __________________ 1991 harley heritage softail classic 2016 hawk kaw h1 400 tripple 13' long chopper in progress 2009 johnny pag bar hog 2004 hd electra glide ultra classic shriner edition 1997 harley davidson 1200 sportster 1972 harley davidson amf sx250
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10-29-2018, 06:28 PM	#9
timcosby Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: robertsdale alabama usa Posts: 1,007	i was trying not to confuse the confused __________________ 1991 harley heritage softail classic 2016 hawk kaw h1 400 tripple 13' long chopper in progress 2009 johnny pag bar hog 2004 hd electra glide ultra classic shriner edition 1997 harley davidson 1200 sportster 1972 harley davidson amf sx250
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10-28-2018, 01:23 PM	#3
DualSport Join Date: Sep 2018 Posts: 173	Yeah I set it after valve overlap on some others and didn't notice the jump. These engines are way different than the original CG 125.. CDI and magneto instead of "points", and I think there is no external cam timing on the original CG. These are just what I noticed without splitting the case. I was curious if the flywheel magneto could be misaligned with the compression stroke from the flywheel nut coming loose. Maybe someone could document how you'd actually set timing on a complete re-assembly where nothing was marked prior?
	0

10-29-2018, 07:28 PM	#10
DualSport Join Date: Sep 2018 Posts: 173	There is also valve overlap which is both valves opened(down) to let intake which has more pressure push out remaining exhaust after compression stroke. I was more interested in the procedure for assembling one of these with no markings from disassembly. Aligning magneto with cam timing with F\|. Again, with no reference marks besides F\|. Unlike the original CG125 these have external cam timing so you can calibrate pretty much everything, and CDI is basically a dumb double-relay circuit controlled by kickstand switch and magneto.. This would also be useful for typical owners because these can go off timing with valve, flywheel, or cam timing problems and since the only reference is usually in foreign language and for the original CG 125 it'd be a big problem..
	0