CSC tuitorial recommending a colder plug

Inroads · 01-13-2017, 08:13 PM

Just read the new tuitorial on engine stalling and they are recommending an 8 or 9 heat range spark plug.
Stock is a 7.This is the first time I have seen a recommendation for a colder plug.
All Jap road bikes run at least an 8....I always thought that a 7 seemed hot for a high revving motor like the RX3.

Jay In Milpitas · 01-13-2017, 08:59 PM

I wondered the same thing, so now we have guidance from the Mother Ship.

Wondering if the 7 is intended for new engine break in, as lower revs are directed for that period.

2LZ · 01-13-2017, 10:01 PM

Of course I just put a brand new iridium 7 in Mrs 2LZ RX3......

Time to hit Amazon again. I guess that would make a NGK CR8EIX???

jbfla · 01-13-2017, 10:15 PM

And what's with the dual prong spark plug?

I thought all those multi-prong plugs were gimmicks.

I read on the NGK website about the advantages of the dual ground electrode.

https://www.ngk.com/product.aspx?zpid=9689

But then why not have 3 or 4 or more ground electrodes?

jb

Jay In Milpitas · 01-13-2017, 11:47 PM

"Multi-Ground Electrodes Improve Ignition Capabilities and are Less Sensitive to Increased Voltage Requirements Due to Gap Growth."

A spark likes to jump from and to a sharp edge/point.
When you put a fresh plug (even the cheap base model) the spark produced starts easier and is more pronounced, bigger, if you will.

Each time a spark occurs a bit of metal is burned away on both electrodes. The same happens on ignition points, for those of you old enough to remember them. As the metal burns away, the crisp sharp edge is dulled or rounded, hence the term "Worn plug" even though there are no moving parts. The rounded electrodes make it harder for the spark to propagate and jump the gap which causes a subtle loss of engine power due to a slightly delayed ignition and also a *weak* burn of the fuel.

Many people know that electricity likes to take the easiest path. With a fresh (sharp) plug that path is straight across the air to the other electrode. As miles go by some residue accumulates on the insulator, which is slightly conductive but normally less than the air gap. The distance from the center electrode to the shell by way of the shape of the insulator is a rough path for the spark to travel. But if the electrodes are worn badly enough and there is enough carbon residue on the insulator, then the spark can choose to run that path resulting in misfires and hard starting.

Multiple electrodes will not give you more/bigger spark in a standard ignition system. What it will do is give you more sharp points to allow for more running time before the plug wears. In a normal engine you will not get more power, just normal power for a longer period. Sorry Splitfire buyers, but that's the truth. If your engine makes more power when you change plugs, it's just because you were over due new plugs.

So what's the deal with Iridium plugs? Iridium is a harder metal than the nickle alloy normally used so it holds up longer (sharp edge) than the nickle alloy used in standard plugs

There are some exceptions to what you've just read, but that's not what this message is about.

Damn, I just did all that rambling and it's not at all alcohol induced. I'm slipping.

jbfla · 01-14-2017, 10:14 AM

Jay, dumb it down....

There is already an iridium spark plug in my RX3.

Multiple ground electrodes....yes or no?

jb

2LZ · 01-14-2017, 11:54 AM

Personal preference and opinion only here.

I've always seen the multi-electrode plugs as either a gimmick (if one is good, two has to be better, right?) or if your ignition system is hurting (in older vehicles), it may provide an alternative "path of least resistance", especially on a worn engine that's burning some oil.

I can't see where multiple electrodes would make any difference in a healthy ignition system, especially the much lower voltage systems they run these days, thanks to fuel injection and ECM's. A GM HEI on the other hand...........

I like the iridium's myself. Install it and forget it.

Jay In Milpitas · 01-14-2017, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbfla

Jay, dumb it down....

There is already an iridium spark plug in my RX3.

Multiple ground electrodes....yes or no?

jb

Only if it makes you feel good.
It wouldn't hurt.
Yes, because you have money you don't know what to do with.
No, because you have Iridium.

Not really an answer, I know.

I wouldn't change to one just for the sake of changing, maybe just pack one as a spare. Unless your bike starts running rich or burning oil, the Iridium should last about 20-30,000 miles.

Decades ago when Splitfire was running print and TV ads, I read a test and review of them in some chopper magazine. They put the subject bike on a dyno and did a run. They installed the Splitfires and did another run, noting a very slight power increase. Lastly the installed new plugs of the same type as original. Same performance as Splitfire. They did not test Splitfire's improved gas mileage claim because in their own words "since when does a Hog rider give a shit about fuel economy?"

Side note: My wife's Corolla was bought new in 2007. Maintenance schedule in the owner's manual says first spark plug change is at 100,000 miles.

Do an image search for spark plugs and be amazed/amused by what's currently available, including things like this: http://www.briskusa.com/brisk_premium_evo_spark_plug

AdventureDad · 01-14-2017, 10:29 PM

The auto plugs may be good for 100k miles, but have heard and seen that the plugs can be VERY difficult to get out after that many miles and or years.

I just changed the 6 plugs on my 09 Wrangler. I believe they were stock. 2 of them literally had the ceramic (porcelain?) crumble in my hands when I removed them from the socket. That and the wires were pretty much ruined when removing them from the plug body. Other than that, they still looked good to go. I did have to run the engine as there was 1 or 2 that just didn't budge. Once I got everything hot, they came out ok, but I was nervous.

Back to the topic...are any of y'all going to change to the cooler plug, regardless of what type?

Jay In Milpitas · 01-14-2017, 11:41 PM

I have to admit that I haven't pulled my plug since the first service, and that was just to have a quick look.

On the next good weather day I will probably take mine out to heat it up and do a plug chop to see how it's burning. Will decide on whether to change heat range based on that.

fjmartin · 01-15-2017, 01:29 AM

I ordered the plug they showed in the picture and was going to give it a try after I get back from my Death Valley ride.

pete · 01-15-2017, 03:11 AM

Colder 8 & 9 mainly used in air cooled motors
Most water cooled motors run 7s but
type of use and climit also have a roll to play...
the factory recomemded plug is to cover all
uses /temp ranges... may not be the best for all uses but will work..
Some people ride though snow while others ride in the desret..
Select the heat range for where & how yer ride..

...

pyoungbl · 01-15-2017, 09:00 AM

Hi pete, don't forget that the RX3 is grossly over cooled due to the thermostat setting. The engine usually won't get hot enough to boil water/fuel out of the oil, unless under extreme conditions. That over cooling might be the reason for changing to an 8 or 9 plug.

I swapped to a 90C thermostat and have the 7 plug...no stalling.

Peter Y.

BlackBike · 01-15-2017, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdventureDad

The auto plugs may be good for 100k miles, but have heard and seen that the plugs can be VERY difficult to get out after that many miles and or years.

I just changed the 6 plugs on my 09 Wrangler. I believe they were stock. 2 of them literally had the ceramic (porcelain?) crumble in my hands when I removed them from the socket. That and the wires were pretty much ruined when removing them from the plug body. Other than that, they still looked good to go. I did have to run the engine as there was 1 or 2 that just didn't budge. Once I got everything hot, they came out ok, but I was nervous.

Back to the topic...are any of y'all going to change to the cooler plug, regardless of what type?

Thank g you got them out. I had some stuck in a Pontiac vibe (Toyota matrix clone) that I could not budge. Never did pull those because of the Unspeakable consequences. Long since traded off now. ( good car except for the big hole in the middle of the road that knocked the f#*k out of the front end that never was completely corrected)

I assume you and all others that are playing with their plugs are using never cease on those threads. A buck and a half at oreilly's

pete · 01-15-2017, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pyoungbl

Hi pete, don't forget that the RX3 is grossly over cooled due to the thermostat setting. The engine usually won't get hot enough to boil water/fuel out of the oil, unless under extreme conditions. That over cooling might be the reason for changing to an 8 or 9 plug.

I swapped to a 90C thermostat and have the 7 plug...no stalling.

Peter Y.

NGK... the bigger the number the colder the plug is....

01-13-2017, 08:13 PM	#1
Inroads Join Date: May 2015 Location: Wimberley Texas Posts: 193	CSC tuitorial recommending a colder plug Just read the new tuitorial on engine stalling and they are recommending an 8 or 9 heat range spark plug. Stock is a 7.This is the first time I have seen a recommendation for a colder plug. All Jap road bikes run at least an 8....I always thought that a 7 seemed hot for a high revving motor like the RX3. Last edited by Inroads; 01-13-2017 at 09:09 PM.
	2

01-13-2017, 10:01 PM	#3
2LZ Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Volcano, Ca Posts: 7,101	Of course I just put a brand new iridium 7 in Mrs 2LZ RX3...... Time to hit Amazon again. I guess that would make a NGK CR8EIX??? __________________ "Light a fire for a man, and you heat him for a day. Light a man on fire, and you heat him for the rest of his life." 2007 Suzuki DRZ400S (SM convert) 2009 Q Link XP 200 1967 BSA B25 250cc Starfire 2022 Royal Enfield Interceptor 650 2023 Royal Enfield Scram 411 1948 Royal Enfield Model G 350
	0

01-13-2017, 10:15 PM	#4
jbfla Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: FL, GA, NC Posts: 771	And what's with the dual prong spark plug? I thought all those multi-prong plugs were gimmicks. I read on the NGK website about the advantages of the dual ground electrode. https://www.ngk.com/product.aspx?zpid=9689 But then why not have 3 or 4 or more ground electrodes? jb __________________ 2016 Honda CB500F......2017 Triumph Street Twin 2014 XT 250........
	1

01-14-2017, 10:14 AM	#6
jbfla Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: FL, GA, NC Posts: 771	Jay, dumb it down.... There is already an iridium spark plug in my RX3. Multiple ground electrodes....yes or no? jb __________________ 2016 Honda CB500F......2017 Triumph Street Twin 2014 XT 250........
	0

01-14-2017, 11:54 AM	#7
2LZ Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Volcano, Ca Posts: 7,101	Personal preference and opinion only here. I've always seen the multi-electrode plugs as either a gimmick (if one is good, two has to be better, right?) or if your ignition system is hurting (in older vehicles), it may provide an alternative "path of least resistance", especially on a worn engine that's burning some oil. I can't see where multiple electrodes would make any difference in a healthy ignition system, especially the much lower voltage systems they run these days, thanks to fuel injection and ECM's. A GM HEI on the other hand........... I like the iridium's myself. Install it and forget it. __________________ "Light a fire for a man, and you heat him for a day. Light a man on fire, and you heat him for the rest of his life." 2007 Suzuki DRZ400S (SM convert) 2009 Q Link XP 200 1967 BSA B25 250cc Starfire 2022 Royal Enfield Interceptor 650 2023 Royal Enfield Scram 411 1948 Royal Enfield Model G 350
	2

01-13-2017, 08:59 PM	#2
Jay In Milpitas Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Milpitas, CA. USA Posts: 775	I wondered the same thing, so now we have guidance from the Mother Ship. Wondering if the 7 is intended for new engine break in, as lower revs are directed for that period.
	0

01-13-2017, 11:47 PM	#5
Jay In Milpitas Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Milpitas, CA. USA Posts: 775	"Multi-Ground Electrodes Improve Ignition Capabilities and are Less Sensitive to Increased Voltage Requirements Due to Gap Growth." A spark likes to jump from and to a sharp edge/point. When you put a fresh plug (even the cheap base model) the spark produced starts easier and is more pronounced, bigger, if you will. Each time a spark occurs a bit of metal is burned away on both electrodes. The same happens on ignition points, for those of you old enough to remember them. As the metal burns away, the crisp sharp edge is dulled or rounded, hence the term "Worn plug" even though there are no moving parts. The rounded electrodes make it harder for the spark to propagate and jump the gap which causes a subtle loss of engine power due to a slightly delayed ignition and also a weak burn of the fuel. Many people know that electricity likes to take the easiest path. With a fresh (sharp) plug that path is straight across the air to the other electrode. As miles go by some residue accumulates on the insulator, which is slightly conductive but normally less than the air gap. The distance from the center electrode to the shell by way of the shape of the insulator is a rough path for the spark to travel. But if the electrodes are worn badly enough and there is enough carbon residue on the insulator, then the spark can choose to run that path resulting in misfires and hard starting. Multiple electrodes will not give you more/bigger spark in a standard ignition system. What it will do is give you more sharp points to allow for more running time before the plug wears. In a normal engine you will not get more power, just normal power for a longer period. Sorry Splitfire buyers, but that's the truth. If your engine makes more power when you change plugs, it's just because you were over due new plugs. So what's the deal with Iridium plugs? Iridium is a harder metal than the nickle alloy normally used so it holds up longer (sharp edge) than the nickle alloy used in standard plugs There are some exceptions to what you've just read, but that's not what this message is about. Damn, I just did all that rambling and it's not at all alcohol induced. I'm slipping.
	4

01-14-2017, 10:29 PM	#9
AdventureDad Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: South Mississippi Posts: 253	The auto plugs may be good for 100k miles, but have heard and seen that the plugs can be VERY difficult to get out after that many miles and or years. I just changed the 6 plugs on my 09 Wrangler. I believe they were stock. 2 of them literally had the ceramic (porcelain?) crumble in my hands when I removed them from the socket. That and the wires were pretty much ruined when removing them from the plug body. Other than that, they still looked good to go. I did have to run the engine as there was 1 or 2 that just didn't budge. Once I got everything hot, they came out ok, but I was nervous. Back to the topic...are any of y'all going to change to the cooler plug, regardless of what type?
	0

01-14-2017, 11:41 PM	#10
Jay In Milpitas Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Milpitas, CA. USA Posts: 775	I have to admit that I haven't pulled my plug since the first service, and that was just to have a quick look. On the next good weather day I will probably take mine out to heat it up and do a plug chop to see how it's burning. Will decide on whether to change heat range based on that.
	0

01-15-2017, 01:29 AM	#11
fjmartin Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Redmond, WA. Posts: 534	I ordered the plug they showed in the picture and was going to give it a try after I get back from my Death Valley ride. __________________ 2017 BMW F800GS Adventure
	0

01-15-2017, 03:11 AM	#12
pete Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: ChCh , NZ Posts: 2,262	Colder 8 & 9 mainly used in air cooled motors Most water cooled motors run 7s but type of use and climit also have a roll to play... the factory recomemded plug is to cover all uses /temp ranges... may not be the best for all uses but will work.. Some people ride though snow while others ride in the desret.. Select the heat range for where & how yer ride.. ... __________________ 09 XT660R ... 06 TTR250 ... 80 Montesa H6 125 Enduro... 77 Montesa Cota 348 MRR "Malcom Rathnell Replica"... Current resto projects.. 81 Honda CT110... 80 Kawasaki KL250A1... 11 Husaburg TE125 enduro... "sold" along with another 31... Lifan 125 Pitbike.. "stolen" ... KIWI BIKER FORUM...... http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/content.php All the best offroad rides in NZ... http://www.remotemoto.com/ E-mail... xtpete1@gmail.com Last edited by pete; 01-15-2017 at 04:02 AM.
	0

01-15-2017, 09:00 AM	#13
pyoungbl Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Portsmouth, Virginia, USA Posts: 632	Hi pete, don't forget that the RX3 is grossly over cooled due to the thermostat setting. The engine usually won't get hot enough to boil water/fuel out of the oil, unless under extreme conditions. That over cooling might be the reason for changing to an 8 or 9 plug. I swapped to a 90C thermostat and have the 7 plug...no stalling. Peter Y.
	3