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Old 04-21-2019, 10:00 PM   #16
sirmaxwell   sirmaxwell is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Whisky View Post
I would take the plastic off and start where the line comes out from the tank, it's got to be something simple since there isn't much there to look at, the line into a shut off valve then to filter then into carb. That's it.
Yeah...I wish it was soo simple for all the fuel problems Im having. I took off both side fairings earlier and it started with them off then I noticed when putting the fuel filter side fairing back on that the fairing kinda traps the fuel line from the tank up between the fairing and either the throttle or choke cable...So maybe the pinch was there. As it was warming up I put fairings back on, careful to not pinch line, it was running great and I rode it a couple miles then parked it to cool off while I made dinner.

About 45 mins later it was mostly cooled down and I went to start it again, it started fine and I turned the choke off after 1-2 mins and took it for a ride again--usually I let it warm up a little longer but it was idling ok so I went for it. Then a mile or two from my house it stalled and didnt want to restart after numerous attempts--it would only catch for a few seconds and die -- so I pushed it under a street light and saw the filter was only half full of fuel again!

So i pushed it home to look at it rather than kill my battery fumbling in the dark. I got home and the filter was full of fuel again -- and I tried to star it and it fired right up sounded almost 100% ok but had a little funny sound when I revved it not sure if I was imagining a sound it was so slight. My bike seems to run on the lean side so I usually rev it for about 30 seconds so it wont stall on starting which is what i did and then it ran on its own a minute and died -- like it sounded like it was just running a little to slow to keep going --so i turned the stock screw on the carb one quarter turn right and started it again but it sounded like it wanted to stall so i revved it a little and I could tell something wasnt right like if I had to guess it was running extremely lean because even if I revved it to 3k rpms it felt like it wasnt making power--eventually i stopped revving it and it died. I looked at the fuel filter which was full. I tried starting it several times and nothing it only began to catch once or twice for a split second and wouldnt start.

I was happy when I took it for two rides, thinking I had fixed the problem until it stalled on the second ride when I let off the throttle to downshift. Now I am wondering if maybe i had a pinched line earlier and another problem now as well?
I dont know--its 10pm here and I will have to deal with it another day which I dont mind--as long as I get this issue fixed 100% soon!

Thanks everyone for replies!! I think your advice did help me find a possibly pinched fuel line. Not sure what Im dealing with now but thinking maybe if I took off the several vacuum and emissions lines then it would rule out possible air leak problems.

No one told me what was in the pictures I posted on this thread earlier. whatever that thing was that was sealing off a nipple/hole on my airbox--now it seems like it isnt an airtight sseal anymore for whatever reason--I dunno if it was made into the airbox for another enissions thing that my bike doesnt have or if Im supposed to plug somethoing like the tank vent that just goes to open air into it?
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Old 04-22-2019, 12:23 AM   #17
Whisky   Whisky is offline
 
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Leave plastic off ride it close to home, watch what it does, there's not much to the fuel system on these carbed bikes, should be fairly easy to eliminate issues between tank and carb. Now if you have vacuum leaks u need to fix those first, those will cause all sorts of running issues. Make sure that you adjusted the idle from the adjuster on the handle bars first and there needs to be some free play on the throttle. Once bike idles from that adjustment then set idle screw on carb.
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Old 04-22-2019, 02:23 AM   #18
sirmaxwell   sirmaxwell is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Whisky View Post
Leave plastic off ride it close to home, watch what it does, there's not much to the fuel system on these carbed bikes, should be fairly easy to eliminate issues between tank and carb. Now if you have vacuum leaks u need to fix those first, those will cause all sorts of running issues. Make sure that you adjusted the idle from the adjuster on the handle bars first and there needs to be some free play on the throttle. Once bike idles from that adjustment then set idle screw on carb.
Thanks I will give that a try first. I'm also thinking if i still have problems after following your suggestion and whatever I can run down with what is on the bike now, then maybe I should try to eliminate all the emissions and one way/vacuum valves stuff. The fuel system is fairly easy BUT combustion takes air and gas and My bike has several vacuum or one way valves that seem like they either could be problems now or will be in the future--I should try to map it out first because Im not too familiar wih it but I think it can run without most or all of it- It has a one way valve I think its a tank vent then a 2-1 hose an evap cannister & some kind of vacuum pcv &/or egr valve And there is something running an aire hose for vacuum actuation to the engine intake boot between the engine and carb. If I get rid of all that then i agree it will be a truly simple machine. Although I was hoping to leave the bike all stock with the emissions and airbox at least for awhile and run it like that because it seems plenty fast enough for my purposes and if all that stuff really helps the emissions great. Although I havent attempted above 35mph or hills yet, nor have I barely gotten above 5k rpms.
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Old 04-22-2019, 02:55 AM   #19
scoot newb   scoot newb is offline
 
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Definitely get rid of the emissions crap and canister. Then you'll just have 1 line from the tank to the carb (with petcock and fuel filter) and a case vent hose. You should be good already on the break in. A couple high to medium power loads, heat cycle, drive it like you stole it.


I know you're thinking, why listen to this guy, his sh%t is falling apart. The only thing that works well on my bike is the motor (knock on wood). Although it vibrates like crazy even with proper torque on the engine bolts, it starts, idles great and doesn't have any flat spots.It braps to 8k and higher.

https://www.ntnoa.org/enginebreakin.htm


 
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Old 04-22-2019, 08:08 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by scoot newb View Post
Definitely get rid of the emissions crap and canister. Then you'll just have 1 line from the tank to the carb (with petcock and fuel filter) and a case vent hose. You should be good already on the break in. A couple high to medium power loads, heat cycle, drive it like you stole it.


I know you're thinking, why listen to this guy, his sh%t is falling apart. The only thing that works well on my bike is the motor (knock on wood). Although it vibrates like crazy even with proper torque on the engine bolts, it starts, idles great and doesn't have any flat spots.It braps to 8k and higher.

https://www.ntnoa.org/enginebreakin.htm
I agree with getting rid of or at least checking or replacing the emissions stuff because I have seen similar equipment fail on brand new and slightly used scooters--it made them have hard times starting and idle problems at least, and then they ran better without the stuff--i just have to map out the emissions and vacuum stuff first to make sure I eliminate it properly since I have only done it a few times before and I saw a couple different variations of systems in the past.

As far as the engine break in stuff well there I am not sure I agree with you. I have an appointment to go to in a minute so i wont bother adding any evidence --- I will just say that every big bike company like Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, KTM, Husqvarna have all been saying for decades to go easier on the bike during break in period. SO why do they say to go easy on it?--I THINK it's because they are trying to avoid warranty claims--- people who disagree with my view on break ins say the manufacturers are trying to tell you ride slow so they dont get sued over accidents but that never made sense to me because A) Honda etc arent liable for accidents due to speeding and B) the manufacturers are making these fast to insanely fast bikes and saying drive it easy when new then do whatever the frigg you want with it after break in.
SO my problem with your break-in view is y0u are saying that Honda Yama-Saki et all don't know how an engine should be broken in and they have been telling people to break these engines in a certain way (easily) for decades on millions of bikes with pretty good track records...?
I mean hey Im no expert so feel free to tell me if and why Im wrong--that's just my current thinking on it. My engine only has 20 miles on it and seems to be running awesome too whenever its getting proper fuel--and I did test and verify it was just a fuel issue which has nothing to do with the engine itself as far as break in-- I also read a scientific article taht I found linked in comments and referenced in a Youtube video by Youtuber The Workshop about how heat cycling--which is where you warm the bike up to normal running temp then let it cool off then run it again-- is beneficial to the bike

Im sure my bike will also "Braap to above 8000 rom" as you said yours does when Im ready to push it a little because the bike is designed to run like that from the factory--its not like your hard break in is gaining extra rpms. Mine runs great when the fuel has been making it to the carb. Also even if a hard break in is getting you say a huge and wildly unlikely gain of 10% extra power--this isnt a track bike and i still dont believe it will also give the bike extra reliability and Im happy with its current performance so I would rather have it last longer than go an extra 1-2 mph with 10% horsepower gain--yeah thats right an extra 10% HP gain would not even add an extra 5mph/10% gain in top speed on this bike because you get diminishing returns on extra power over about 30-40 mph due to wind resistance.

As a side note I believe it is also not good to break your bike in too softly and it is bad to leave the bike running at steady rpms during break in for extended periods--but if you follow the people who made the bikes reccomendations with their engineers and millions in R&D and millions maybe billions in warranty liabilities they are trying to stop from turning into warranty claims and break it in using 50-60% of the bikes' power and vary the rpms for the first 600-1600 miles or whatever exactly each bike says then you will be just fine IMO

As a last note due to modern good manufacturing techniques, CDI/ bikes built with rev limiters/limitations in factory form and better metalurgy have also made bikes more reliable right from the factory before being broken in than they were many decades and longer ago. SO you may be able to ride it hard from the get go and not see significant damage possibly but again I choose to stick with what the big vompanies with tons of research say to do
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Old 04-22-2019, 02:03 PM   #21
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I get the apprehension on taking the plastics all off, I was not looking forward to that at all myself, but it really isnt that bad.There are several Grom and Grom clone videos on YouTube that walk you through it step by step .The only thing you really need to watch out for is not really in taking them off, but in putting them back on. DONT overtighten them or they will crack, easily, make sure you have ti lined up as best you can and dont get it "sorta close" and try to pull it into alignment with the screw, it will break. But yeah you need to get comfortable pulling the plastics off since you cant hardly do anything without having to pull one side or the other off so may as well get

over that hump now.
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Old 04-22-2019, 02:31 PM   #22
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I don't think the break in process was responsible for brapping to 8k +. Just saying it runs well not following the recommended break in procedure. I thought it was all about getting the ring seal good. If so, then the drive it like you stole it method makes more sense to me. Maybe I'll find out the hard way it was a bad idea. XD


 
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Old 04-22-2019, 05:28 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by RedCrowRides View Post
I get the apprehension on taking the plastics all off, I was not looking forward to that at all myself, but it really isnt that bad.There are several Grom and Grom clone videos on YouTube that walk you through it step by step .The only thing you really need to watch out for is not really in taking them off, but in putting them back on. DONT overtighten them or they will crack, easily, make sure you have ti lined up as best you can and dont get it "sorta close" and try to pull it into alignment with the screw, it will break. But yeah you need to get comfortable pulling the plastics off since you cant hardly do anything without having to pull one side or the other off so may as well get

over that hump now.

Yeah i did say I didnt want to take the plastics off but I also ended up posting about taking off both side fairings a day or two ago...

I agree putting it back on is harder and it took me awhile because I was suvessfully avoidong forcing pieces on and I was pretty unskilled at doing it but I figured it out after awhile. One thing that threw me was the two side fairings arent symetrical in how they bolt up in a couple places and there is a big bolt low down kinda facing forward in the same direction as the headlight faces but located to the side and lower and the tab it bolts onto needs to bend a little when you bolt the fairing back on so that the rest of the fairing lines up with all the other holes and i didnt see that for I dunno 10-15 mins on that one bolt but oh well.

My biggest fear was I would break something and/or not be able to get parts back on properly or at all, i like how the bike looks and didnt want it looking like my P.O.S. beat up scooters end up looking but so far so good

Many of the screws that I wasnt sure if I needed to loosen them to take the fairing off really just hold parts of the fairing together and not onto the frame--i am noting this for New people to this who dont know that because the small screws that hold parts of the fairing together are pretty much just going into plastic and should not be removed if it can be avoided because they will strip the plastic holes so it wont screw in anymore and will break
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Old 04-22-2019, 05:42 PM   #24
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I don't think the break in process was responsible for brapping to 8k +. Just saying it runs well not following the recommended break in procedure. I thought it was all about getting the ring seal good. If so, then the drive it like you stole it method makes more sense to me. Maybe I'll find out the hard way it was a bad idea. XD
Ring seals as well as valve seats are two pretty big keys to break in--and just mating the surfaces is a term I have heard--All that can be done just fine running at mid range RPM while varying speed and its best at least the first several times to do heat cycling to break in the metals--which means warm the bike up including running it thru the gears going maybe at least a couple or a handful of miles then shut it off, let it cool completely and warm it up again. Heat cycling is scientifically proven because metal properties like how brittle it is can change with heat metals can be work hardened and all sorts of stuff i dont fully understand as chem was never my thing in school.

I agree that running it hard probably wont hurt it since manufacturing processes make the clearances so precise repeatedly with machine and computer made parts and the metals used in the main engine components arevery high quality these days unlike in the past several or more decades ago and unlike the cheaper high carbon steel tey use on hardware and sometimes frame parts on these China bikes that easily crack and fall apart like some stuff on your bike already is. AND its not like this bike has no rev limit and even if it did have no rev limit like putting on an aftermarket no rev limit CDI Im not sure it has enough power in stock form to tear itself apart (An interesting note is on the scooters people bought no rev limit CDI boxes and then one person proved the stock CDI was no rev limits and the scooters engine just wasnt strong enough to push the revs very high lol...not sure if thats the case with these Vaders or Cats) SO yeah in this application I guess you probably wouldnt be in much danger of damaging the bike running it hard right away since it isnt powerful--maybe the biggest risk would be to the gears--nbut if you up and downshift not too terribly those are pretty solid from what i have seen so far--Not sure how long they last as this is my first China motorcycle but it looks like it could be at least somewhat promising to the point I think I could get at least a couple tens of thousands of miles out of this engine maybe more. i got close to 20k out of a 50cc GY6--aroiund 10k of them in one season last year and it was running fine other than needing valve adjustment pretty often maybe it needed a new/rebuilt head with new valve seats/seals/springs which was why I eventually stopped riding it and it was too slow was why I didnt get another one
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Old 04-22-2019, 05:46 PM   #25
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I agree with not running wicked hard during break-in I just don't think it takes all those miles to break it in. I think a few heat cycles pushing mid and a bit higher then - then it's ready and ride it like you stole it. That's just me and I could be completely wrong.


 
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Old 04-23-2019, 06:57 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by scoot newb View Post
I agree with not running wicked hard during break-in I just don't think it takes all those miles to break it in. I think a few heat cycles pushing mid and a bit higher then - then it's ready and ride it like you stole it. That's just me and I could be completely wrong.
I rode it today and had zero issues with the fuel on it AND it was in the mid 70's yo loe 80's here today for all my riding. I feel like before I had a pinched line maybe and other than that it might be that my carb is factory and likely jetted lean --so when I was having any other possible fuel problems it was at night in the high 40's to mid 50 degree range. Maybe reworking the carb jet needle position or getting new jets or a new carb or even adjusting the air/fuel screw when riding in cold temps might help me on that.

When I was riding today I did briefly for maybe 3 seperate 1/8-1/4 mile runs I ran it up to around 6k rpms an 35-40 mph according to the stock speedo--which will be interesting to pit that against a phone gps app for accuracy but it felt not far off.
My bike feels like it always wants me to go faster and shift into a higher gear lol Like maybe its just me and Im not as smooth as I should be holding speed or decelerating OR maybe rejetting or getting a new carb will solve that--JUST seems like the bike isnt too somooth on holding speed or decelerating. I now have a whopping 30 miles on the clock--waiting for plates befre I go too far on a ride--I almost took it way down a 40mph speed limit main state route without thinking today, but after i pulled up to that road I was like waiti a minute there is tons of traffic and I dont have plates yet bad idea!
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Old 04-24-2019, 12:29 AM   #27
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Usually these bikes smooth out quite a bit as they get broken in, they really do need 300 miles or so to really wear in. I could not get neutral on mine to save my a** when it was brand new, but after i put 300 miles or so on it , it got soooo much better.



I did switch to a Mikuni VM22 carb pretty quick tho , the stock carb on the Grom clones is just not very good, you can get by with it but you can get a complete VM22 kit for under 40$ and it really is worth it, you get the carb, intake, and a foam filter.
Look for my build thread here, the kit i used is listed there.
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Old 04-24-2019, 01:39 AM   #28
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Make sure you are adjusting idle at the handle bars first and not trying to do it by the screw on the carb. It does matter.
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Old 04-24-2019, 11:04 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedCrowRides View Post
Usually these bikes smooth out quite a bit as they get broken in, they really do need 300 miles or so to really wear in. I could not get neutral on mine to save my a** when it was brand new, but after i put 300 miles or so on it , it got soooo much better.



I did switch to a Mikuni VM22 carb pretty quick tho , the stock carb on the Grom clones is just not very good, you can get by with it but you can get a complete VM22 kit for under 40$ and it really is worth it, you get the carb, intake, and a foam filter.
Look for my build thread here, the kit i used is listed there.
I hope and believe you're right about break-in!! Because especially when Im done riding and before I turn the bike off I have trouble hitting Nueatral. Also at stops if i hit a red light its hard to hit N so i end up clutch riding and my left wrist was a little sore after 10 miles yesterday--I hope and think I will get used to the extra workout for my wrists and maybe if I ride in a different position I also wont have as much pressure on my wrists as i have been doing. I often end up turning the bike off then putting it in Neutral to push into my garage and sometimes that doesnt work so I turn it back on and run it forward in first 10 yards then it SEEMS like N is easier to get for whatever reason.
I also wonder if the shift pattern where its possible to shift from 1st-2nd and 2nd-1st while skipping Neutral MIGHT contribute to the problem--I want ot take a pic of the shift pattern and post it along with the oil break-in period sticker if I remember. I think the shift pattern sticker says 1-N-2--3--4, where N is only a half "click" or half the distance and other gears are a full click/distance--at least thats what it feels like and thats what it looks like in the shift pattern sticker--ALSO on the shift pattern sticker there is something funny looking and Im not sure if it means there is also something different like between 3rd to 4th and back being 3/4 distance or half I dont know which is one reason I want ot take a pic, post it, and ask opinions from my China Riders Brothers here!

Thanks for the reply and for the encouragement that the shifting will get better to fing N RedCrowRides!!! Im about to go for a ride and it doesnt hurt to have a little more confidence!
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Old 04-24-2019, 11:07 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whisky View Post
Make sure you are adjusting idle at the handle bars first and not trying to do it by the screw on the carb. It does matter.
So far I only tried adjusting it at most a half turn on the carb screw--and currently I switched the carb screw back to factory as per reading your comment.
I originally thought that screw was the air/fuel mix--but now I am guessing that is only the idle speed and the air/fuel is probably covered with a brassy"safety"/dont mess with me cap I need to drill out to adjust the air/fuel mix..Am I right?

Insight on why it makes a difference would also be appreciated since I dont know why and you seem more experienced/knowledgeable than me on the subject of these bikes.!!

Thanks again Whisky!!
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