No plans to import RX3S from CSC after initial eval. - Page 2

calvarez · 10-12-2018, 05:27 PM

CSC seems to have some fine reviews from most people. But...my brother got into a huge issue with them, and maybe lawsuit, can't remember. The TT250 he bought had fake EPA/forest service certifications on the muffler. He insisted they make it legal or take it back.

Working_ZS · 10-13-2018, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvarez

CSC seems to have some fine reviews from most people. But...my brother got into a huge issue with them, and maybe lawsuit, can't remember. The TT250 he bought had fake EPA/forest service certifications on the muffler. He insisted they make it legal or take it back.

Sounds like a misunderstanding to me. The TT250 does have a Federal Noise Emission Certification sticker, located on the right front frame, just behind the headstock. It's for muffler loudness (80 db @ 7600 RPM), which is set by the EPA; it doesn't have anything to do with forest service requirements, i.e. spark arrestors. There is no sticker on the muffler itself on my 2016.

If I remember correctly, it's the same sticker that they sent out to early RX3 purchasers as a federal recall, since the bikes were shipped without it.

pyoungbl · 10-13-2018, 10:32 AM

I do not recall seeing any forest service certification on the exhaust of the TT250 I bought last year.

fjmartin · 10-14-2018, 02:11 AM

I did a ton of research about forest service requirements and contacted both our states DNR (Dept of Natural Resources) and the USFS for clarification. I told them I had a stock CSC RX3 which was street legal from the factory and licensed for street use. The response from the USFS is below. I know you were talking about the TT250 but his response makes it clear that ANY street legal stock bike is OK on USFS lands.

"Joe

Sorry for the long delay answering your question, however I am the new Spark Arrester Program Lead and I did not start working with the forest service until this month.

To try and answer your question, if your bike’s exhaust system is stock you are good. All OHVs sold in the states must meet Spark Arrestor requirements set forth by 36 CFR 261.52. If they are sold in the US they are and must be certified here in San Dimas, CA. Also you should not need to provide certification of your bike’s SA being present, there could be an exception but I am not sure or aware of an example. If you were to modify or remove your SA, and not replace it was a 36 CFR 261.52 approved SA, you could be liable in the event you caused a fire.

So I believe as long as your motorcycle is stock, you’re just fine to ride. Get out there and enjoy those FS and state lands, I know I do."

Biker_Andy · 10-15-2018, 08:23 PM

The RX4 will be sold by CSC in spring of 2019. Its just the RX3S that has ergonomics too small for USA riders.

NzBrakelathes · 10-16-2018, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biker_Andy

The RX4 will be sold by CSC in spring of 2019. Its just the RX3S that has ergonomics too small for USA riders.

What seat did they use?!

Biker_Andy · 10-19-2018, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NzBrakelathes

What seat did they use?!

Not just the seat it's where the footpegs, controls and handlebars sit as well. Apparently it's VERY cramped for typical American riders. Where the RX4 has ergonomics similar to the RX3 and is very comfortable.

calvarez · 10-17-2018, 03:24 PM

For those who were asking about the muffler issue, this is what he originally posted on another bike forum. In the end, CSC said he was right and refunded him, taking the bike back. After he filed a lawsuit.

The CSC TT250 China bike. Right away I noticed that it didn't have the usual EPA and noise approval stamping on the muffler, I thought it was a requirement but figured maybe there was some kind of exception so I kinda blew it off but it stayed in my head. I posted about it on the Chinariders forum and every reply has stated that theirs aren't labeled either-there are many different Chinese bikes & quads. Everyone on there says I'm smoking crack and it's not really a requirement just something that's done. Many also stated that they've never seen an OE muffler with a stamp on any bike where I've never seen one without, which is why this one drew my attention. I called CSC and the guy confirmed that they have done all the tests and been given EPA and CARB approval (California Air Resources Board) and says that the stamp and label don't have to be on there, it just has to be compliant.

After some research it appears that the Feds have no exceptions, any production bike destined for street use (and maybe off-road use too) must have a compliance stamped muffler as well as a compliance sticker on the bike's frame unless it's for export only or competition use only. Furthermore Ca., and maybe other states, have a state law saying that no production motorcycle can be on the road without these labels and that doing so earns you a citation. To clear the citation the bike must be made compliant as well as paying the penalty.

The chances of me getting busted for this is slim to none, but if I did there would be no way to make it compliant unless the manufacturer supplied me a frame sticker and a stamped muffler which they don't currently have. If this gets out and the importers get hit with penalties and compliance requirements I assume they'll just close their doors cuz it would be really expensive to fix this mistake. So I'm thinking that the smart move would be to demand a refund and return the bike before the potential of them getting busted and closing shop happens.

Thoughts?

pyoungbl · 10-17-2018, 04:03 PM

Calvarez, I just took a look at my 2014 Moto Guzzi with stock exhaust. There is a stamp but it only addresses compliance for noise. There is nothing about spark arrestor or off road use. At the same time I took a look at my RX3 and don't see anything stamped on the muffler (I did not take the heat shield off) but the headstock does certify that the motorcycle meets the noise standards. In the case we are talking about, it seems that CSC might have decided that it was just simpler and smarter to take the bike back to be done with the problem. They are a small company and need all the good will they can get. Going to court, even if you 'win', is counter productive. Heck, we are talking about a $2100 bike. You'd spend much of that in legal fees alone...just not worth going through all that.

Peter Y.

Sullybiker · 10-17-2018, 06:50 PM

I remember those posts about the muffler and my opinion is that it was all very strange. 'After some research' is all well and good, but where are the sources? It's all speculative.

Now the other consideration is that there is evidence in this thread apparently from the responsible body which suggests somebody is wrong.

calvarez · 10-18-2018, 02:54 PM

I have no horse in this race, I will never buy a TT250, and clearly already have an RX3 so I really just don't care. I also am not going to assume my brother is right. If you want to nitpick the one post, of course you can find holes. This turned into a four page thread with people who have been riding all their lives, and he also got an opinion from a paralegal (no not a lawyer). My brother is a mechanic and once had a job replacing parts on an entire container of generators that all had fake US approvals on them. It's pretty common really, not his first time seeing it, which is why he checked all the certifications.

So do what you want with that info, I'm not interested in arguing about it and really don't even have a strong opinion on it. Personally I'd say screw the EPA and have no problem with an illegal muffler.

Working_ZS · 10-18-2018, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvarez

I have no horse in this race, I will never buy a TT250, and clearly already have an RX3 so I really just don't care. I also am not going to assume my brother is right. If you want to nitpick the one post, of course you can find holes. This turned into a four page thread with people who have been riding all their lives, and he also got an opinion from a paralegal (no not a lawyer). My brother is a mechanic and once had a job replacing parts on an entire container of generators that all had fake US approvals on them. It's pretty common really, not his first time seeing it, which is why he checked all the certifications.

So do what you want with that info, I'm not interested in arguing about it and really don't even have a strong opinion on it. Personally I'd say screw the EPA and have no problem with an illegal muffler.

No nitpicking here, I've found this story to be interesting and useful

I believe it explains the recall that CSC did for the 2015 RX3's (and possibly early 2016 TT250's?, can't say for sure, since I ordered mine in December 2016 and it already had the sticker on the headstock when I received it), when they mailed out the Federal Noise Emission stickers with instructions pertaining to where on the bike they should be placed.

calvarez · 10-18-2018, 07:10 PM

Now that's interesting, and I didn't know about that. I've also been unable to find a copy of the pissup between CSC and that reviewer, Evenrider or something like that. I'd really like to read it. I love a company that stands up for itself, even if it's offensively.

sqwert · 10-18-2018, 10:57 PM

Back in the olden days when I worked in a shop that sold Hondas, Kawasakis, Husqvarnas, and Pentons, every exhaust had a stamped imprint of approval in the metal. No stickers, period. The only exceptions were exhausts intended for closed, contained course racing. Tracks such as drag strips, mud bogs, dirt tracks, indoor motocross, pulling tracks, and road racing venues with no plants other than mowed and raked grass within a certain distance of the track, distance dependent on speed, could run anything. Street bikes that did not have mufflers approved for off road use so were not allowed off road legally. US and state forest service personnel wrote some tickets with hefty fines if an exhaust was not properly stamped.

Working_ZS · 10-19-2018, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvarez

Now that's interesting, and I didn't know about that. I've also been unable to find a copy of the pissup between CSC and that reviewer, Evenrider or something like that. I'd really like to read it. I love a company that stands up for itself, even if it's offensively.

I believe the blog entry in question was taken down by Joe Berk after he had a chance to reconsider things.

10-14-2018, 02:11 AM	#4
fjmartin Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Redmond, WA. Posts: 534	I did a ton of research about forest service requirements and contacted both our states DNR (Dept of Natural Resources) and the USFS for clarification. I told them I had a stock CSC RX3 which was street legal from the factory and licensed for street use. The response from the USFS is below. I know you were talking about the TT250 but his response makes it clear that ANY street legal stock bike is OK on USFS lands. "Joe Sorry for the long delay answering your question, however I am the new Spark Arrester Program Lead and I did not start working with the forest service until this month. To try and answer your question, if your bike’s exhaust system is stock you are good. All OHVs sold in the states must meet Spark Arrestor requirements set forth by 36 CFR 261.52. If they are sold in the US they are and must be certified here in San Dimas, CA. Also you should not need to provide certification of your bike’s SA being present, there could be an exception but I am not sure or aware of an example. If you were to modify or remove your SA, and not replace it was a 36 CFR 261.52 approved SA, you could be liable in the event you caused a fire. So I believe as long as your motorcycle is stock, you’re just fine to ride. Get out there and enjoy those FS and state lands, I know I do." __________________ 2017 BMW F800GS Adventure
	1

10-15-2018, 08:23 PM	#5
Biker_Andy Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 347	The RX4 will be sold by CSC in spring of 2019. Its just the RX3S that has ergonomics too small for USA riders. __________________ Electrician & Electronics Tech 2014 Honda CB500XA 2016 CSC TT250 1976 Honda CJ360T 2022 Honda Navi
	1

10-12-2018, 05:27 PM	#1
calvarez Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: Peoria, AZ Posts: 334	CSC seems to have some fine reviews from most people. But...my brother got into a huge issue with them, and maybe lawsuit, can't remember. The TT250 he bought had fake EPA/forest service certifications on the muffler. He insisted they make it legal or take it back.
	0

10-13-2018, 10:32 AM	#3
pyoungbl Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Portsmouth, Virginia, USA Posts: 632	I do not recall seeing any forest service certification on the exhaust of the TT250 I bought last year.
	0

10-17-2018, 03:24 PM	#8
calvarez Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: Peoria, AZ Posts: 334	For those who were asking about the muffler issue, this is what he originally posted on another bike forum. In the end, CSC said he was right and refunded him, taking the bike back. After he filed a lawsuit. The CSC TT250 China bike. Right away I noticed that it didn't have the usual EPA and noise approval stamping on the muffler, I thought it was a requirement but figured maybe there was some kind of exception so I kinda blew it off but it stayed in my head. I posted about it on the Chinariders forum and every reply has stated that theirs aren't labeled either-there are many different Chinese bikes & quads. Everyone on there says I'm smoking crack and it's not really a requirement just something that's done. Many also stated that they've never seen an OE muffler with a stamp on any bike where I've never seen one without, which is why this one drew my attention. I called CSC and the guy confirmed that they have done all the tests and been given EPA and CARB approval (California Air Resources Board) and says that the stamp and label don't have to be on there, it just has to be compliant. After some research it appears that the Feds have no exceptions, any production bike destined for street use (and maybe off-road use too) must have a compliance stamped muffler as well as a compliance sticker on the bike's frame unless it's for export only or competition use only. Furthermore Ca., and maybe other states, have a state law saying that no production motorcycle can be on the road without these labels and that doing so earns you a citation. To clear the citation the bike must be made compliant as well as paying the penalty. The chances of me getting busted for this is slim to none, but if I did there would be no way to make it compliant unless the manufacturer supplied me a frame sticker and a stamped muffler which they don't currently have. If this gets out and the importers get hit with penalties and compliance requirements I assume they'll just close their doors cuz it would be really expensive to fix this mistake. So I'm thinking that the smart move would be to demand a refund and return the bike before the potential of them getting busted and closing shop happens. Thoughts?
	0

10-17-2018, 04:03 PM	#9
pyoungbl Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Portsmouth, Virginia, USA Posts: 632	Calvarez, I just took a look at my 2014 Moto Guzzi with stock exhaust. There is a stamp but it only addresses compliance for noise. There is nothing about spark arrestor or off road use. At the same time I took a look at my RX3 and don't see anything stamped on the muffler (I did not take the heat shield off) but the headstock does certify that the motorcycle meets the noise standards. In the case we are talking about, it seems that CSC might have decided that it was just simpler and smarter to take the bike back to be done with the problem. They are a small company and need all the good will they can get. Going to court, even if you 'win', is counter productive. Heck, we are talking about a $2100 bike. You'd spend much of that in legal fees alone...just not worth going through all that. Peter Y.
	0

10-17-2018, 06:50 PM	#10
Sullybiker Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Western PA Posts: 363	I remember those posts about the muffler and my opinion is that it was all very strange. 'After some research' is all well and good, but where are the sources? It's all speculative. Now the other consideration is that there is evidence in this thread apparently from the responsible body which suggests somebody is wrong.
	1

10-18-2018, 02:54 PM	#11
calvarez Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: Peoria, AZ Posts: 334	I have no horse in this race, I will never buy a TT250, and clearly already have an RX3 so I really just don't care. I also am not going to assume my brother is right. If you want to nitpick the one post, of course you can find holes. This turned into a four page thread with people who have been riding all their lives, and he also got an opinion from a paralegal (no not a lawyer). My brother is a mechanic and once had a job replacing parts on an entire container of generators that all had fake US approvals on them. It's pretty common really, not his first time seeing it, which is why he checked all the certifications. So do what you want with that info, I'm not interested in arguing about it and really don't even have a strong opinion on it. Personally I'd say screw the EPA and have no problem with an illegal muffler.
	0

10-18-2018, 07:10 PM	#13
calvarez Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: Peoria, AZ Posts: 334	Now that's interesting, and I didn't know about that. I've also been unable to find a copy of the pissup between CSC and that reviewer, Evenrider or something like that. I'd really like to read it. I love a company that stands up for itself, even if it's offensively.
	0

10-18-2018, 10:57 PM	#14
sqwert Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 382	Back in the olden days when I worked in a shop that sold Hondas, Kawasakis, Husqvarnas, and Pentons, every exhaust had a stamped imprint of approval in the metal. No stickers, period. The only exceptions were exhausts intended for closed, contained course racing. Tracks such as drag strips, mud bogs, dirt tracks, indoor motocross, pulling tracks, and road racing venues with no plants other than mowed and raked grass within a certain distance of the track, distance dependent on speed, could run anything. Street bikes that did not have mufflers approved for off road use so were not allowed off road legally. US and state forest service personnel wrote some tickets with hefty fines if an exhaust was not properly stamped.
	0