Armed Forces Alarmed at the Numbers of Motorcycle Deaths

[DDG1976]

Originally Posted by lego1970

Ok, maybe it's the OJ & Vodka talking but I really like you guys. Like someone else posted in the political thread, it's nice that we can disagree, get along, and keep it civil. It's Friday night, Lionel Richie is playing in the background, Vodka is feeling good, and Sloppy Joes are cooking. Ya,ll take care..........

That sounds like the makings of a rough saturday morning! LOL!

[lego1970]

It's 6:30 Saturday morning and I don't feel very good :oops: Must been something wrong with the Orange Juice or Sloppy Joe's because I know there was nothing wrong with the Vodka Just kidding, I'm doing good. I only had a couple drinks last night, I don't like getting hammered.

[Willys]

I still stick by the slow'em down route...personally it would kill my thrill to drive and make it a need to get there type of thing ...but it would also stop instantly the whole issue of speeding and vehiclar manslaughter. IMHO.
Yes I'm all for track days and the building of tracks to keep it on the track. But, then who gets sued if little Ironfist gets wiped out on the track?? The government? because they would have to be the ones building all these tracks..they make the road rules they need to supply the outlet to go fast elsewhere. IMHO
As for the limiting of the size of your first bike...?? no takers? Perhaps a China bike? I like the idea of having to take a skills test every 5 years as long as I don't have to pay for it everytime.
I'm sure most have read that I have a daughter learning to ride. That's who rides our china bike. In the fields only and around our 1 acre yard. I regeared it to 14/56..it is so slow now that she is forced to learn good ballance and throttle control, two points that are vital in the best riding technique later. It is also easier for her to learn to use the gears correctly at low speeds too. All of these things combined will teach her total control in a safe and non dangerous environment...IMHO. So when she is old enough and still has this bug to ride(I doubt very much she will loose unless she gets hurt bad) she will be equiped with the best possible tools to ride the road safely.
I think every rider needs to learn to ride a dirt bike first in the dirt...Once you have those skills ...street riding is much easier, you already have the knowledge on how to easily manover the bike to where you want it to go. Yes street riding and dirt riding is different, but, once you learn how to slide and toss a bike around.it sure is easier to ride a bike in a more dangerous location like the city or highway.
Yes our laws up here are going in the right way as for speeding, but, as mentioned above, if you've been caught once , you will be running the second time for sure...what have you to loose ??? Everything...IMHO! Major $$$ fines that will take years to pay for and your vehicle, and any type of futur insurance rates..they will stay in the outer orbit for your lifetime I would imagine.?

So...there is no real way to resolve this if they keep making these rockets that they sell to us. Yes they learn from the track...in all ways possible that gets translated to our very safe and fast cars etc....but at what costs?
Is it really worth it? have you lost a family member or close friend to a vehicular accident or been permenantly disabled from an accident caused by someone else??? I have and I live with the neck that gives me constant pain and has cost me 3 jobs(due to not being able to work at them as I was expected to and left on my own accord). I will never be the same physically thanks to one drugged fool who rear ended my at a stop light ! Going 2 times the legal limit! He disappeared off the radar...went back to his first country I expect.
So ...yes, I have a personal interest in this...I would hate to see anyone have to live as i do for reasons that they weren't in control of.

Sorry for the speech or lecture....I used to be one of the fast road racing types and still do if the mood takes me. I used to Rally race in England too, closed courses. So I know how to handle a car...bike not so much. I worry about my neck now too much...one good fall could leave me soft from the nipples down! Or Worse.

Again sorry...please continue on...

[lego1970]

I understand Willy and I don't take it as a lecture. I just lost a friend on October 1rst from a drinking and driving accident. He wasn't a best friend and I only knew him for about a year and a half, but he was a great guy. The weekend before he died, he invited me to watch the dogs swim in the local city pool. (they let the dogs swim in the pool before they close if for the winter) I severely broke my leg last year in a tree accident at work. Today my leg is doing good and I can do just about everything I could before, but I still jog with a limp, my knee on that leg is weak, and my lower back is now hurting. I didn't get any money from that and the workers comp is 2/3rd of your normal paycheck so I struggled fincially. I couldn't climb trees again until late July and even then everytime I stabbed the gaffs into the tree my leg would throb. I could of placed blame over the accident because it was poorly bid, and the salesman promised the home owner more then we could safely handle without a crane. However it's a dangerous job and I always knew that getting injured or killed was a good possiblity, hence why they pay decent. We just lost are main contract last month, so the hours went from 60hr work weeks to 40hr per week. I can't make it on 40 hrs, so I now work for the owners brother who owns a flatbed trucking company. The tracks here in the states are privatly owned. I can think of about 20 road coase track just off the top of my head and there is probably another 30 spread thruout the States. When you go on the track you sign a waiver so if you get killed or kill someone else, no one gets sued. Everybody accepts that risk, and yes if you have been on NESBA's website from time to time someone get's killed on or off the track. A lot of times you will see post from the victims family after an accident saying that thier lost loved one would never want to see the sport end. Like I said there is a time and place for everything. Going a buck 50 down I-95 in Wash DC is not cool, going a buck 50 from Alpine Texas to Big Bend national park, no problem.
Either way Willy I'm just disagreeing and if I came across rude, then please forgive me because I didn't mean too.

[IronFist]

I was thinking along the lines of what lego said. I was thinking the army could rent an existing track, of course waivers. I didn't say safe, I was only trying to come up with a way to reduce deaths. We are talking about humans and you can't stop death in an amusement park, let alone the race track.

If I'm forty feet up, on a rickety ladder, painting a house in the wind, some call that dangerous, I call it Tuesday. Add to that, fatigue, like the kind you have after working a 92.5 hour work week. Some call that stupid, and that's where I draw the line. It's what I call the stupid-line. It's where you have to really be honest with yourself, and some people have no internal dialogue. They are incapable of knowing what a stupid-line is, let alone knowing "where" it is, or be able to stop before crossing it. I was thinking that some of them could be taught where the line is, that shouldn't be crossed, that's all.

I don't think speeding can be fully stopped, big brother can't watch that closely, yet, but soon. For now, there will always be the guy ripping past your car. I think the draconian system up here was set up to stem the systematic speeding of the flow of traffic. If the limit is 60, but everyone is doing 90, then the racers are doing 150. And for some cars and most suv's, 150mph is like mixing alcohol and firearms. Somebody is bound to die.

Willys: " As for the limiting of the size of your first bike...?? no takers? Perhaps a China bike?

Sir, that's exactly what I did. :wink: I have never rode without helmet (fullface), gloves, leather or armor jacket, and if going over 25 Mph, boots. After a year with my 150cc chinabike, I moved up. I figure I'll spend 2-3 years with my 325cc. I got an old bike (1972) to go on vintage rides and learn from old bikers willing to give their knowledge for free. I troll sites to learn. Does that mean I'm 100% safe out there, no. The difference might only be a couple percentage points, but I'll take em. :wink:

It's hard, in a tricky situation, to not use what you've learned. Information saves lives, not loud pipes. Willys, I'm not bashing you brother, just a disagreement. Our long posts prove we're both concerned about saving lives. Sadly, I doubt the US army brass is reading our thread. :(

[Willys]

It's all good guys....I'm not upset or aggravated by anyone's opinions here as long as they don't get personal. And they aren't by any means..IMHO.

It's good that we can discuss things as we want without starting a screaming match with fingers pointed! lol

Ironfist..I expected that is what you were doing ...going from the China bike up to the bigger cc'd machine.

Excellent way to get your skills up.

[IronFist]

The amount of riding I do was a big part of the decision. 4500 miles this summer, the worst summer for riding in recorded history. The chinabike saw way more miles my first year. If all goes well with the rebuild, I'd like to see at least 7000 miles next year, with several longer highway trips. Once the motor gets broken in again. I went to Maniwaki Quebec, from Toronto Ontario on secondary highways on a 150cc chinabike. I did the trip again this year on the highway with my honda. Shaved about 6 hours of travel time, each way. I like long rides.

My M licence test is coming up this year or next. There is a highway portion. I wanted a bike to get used to, long before I took the test.

Lastly, I like old bikes and wanted to learn from old riders. For a long time last year I had a picture of my bike in the gallery. I photoshopped the picture to make it look like what I wanted my chinabike to look like. Basicly it looked like an old cb 350, lots of chrome and a bubble headlight. When I saw my 350 advertised, I thought the guy was lying about the bike or the price. When I saw the bike in person I fell in love.

[VinceDrake]

Gentlemen, I must say I am really enjoying this topic!

However, I do have to disagree, strongly, on legislating or outlawing certain kinds of bikes. Whether by cc's, horsepower output, or chassis design, or whatever. A Jam-Tart on an electric bicycle can cause as much traffic mayhem as a RC51 in the wrong hands.

Part of the problem here in Sunny Southern Saskatchewan is we have no graduated license program of any real significance. The learner's licence is a joke, and there's only 1 road test from "Learner" to "Whatever you can afford" Currently the restrictions for a learner are: a) No Passengers. b) Dawn 'til dusk c.) no more than 100km (60miles) from home.

I would be interested in a cc-classifcation licensing program, if it was accompanied by a skills program. Currently You can write your learner's today, and ride hone a 2000cc custom chopper tomorrow, if you know your lane position and road signs. There's something dramatically wrong with that.

I guess what I am getting at is the issue does not lie with the equipment, but the operator. And the operator needs experience and training, not crappy, underpowered equipment. i.e. If you give someone a 350hp moto-grader, and he sucks at it, will he be any better with a 45hp 1950's Allys-Chalmers Maintainer?

That being said, the operator is a lazy know it all, like me, and will not do anything to improve his skills until he is forced to do so, by either a crappy performance on the track, or Legal requirements.

Finally, on to drunk drivers! Currently here, a first offence results in a 1 year suspension of your license, Up to $10,000 fine, possibly jail time, and that's *if* you don't hurt anyone. God help you if you hurt someone, or worse kill someone, (It's considered Aggravated Assault or Manslaughter if you do.)

But if you handle the charges quietly, no one knows.

I personally think, post names, license numbers, dates and number of offences on a public web-site. Big Yellow stickers on your car, tatoos on your forehead, the whole nine yards, and they stay there for 10 years. Give the rest of us a fighting chance of protecting ourselves and our families from your stupidity. *Force* the dregs of the driving populace to take some resposibility for their ill-considered actions.

If your boss doesn't want to employ you anymore, and your wife doesn't find you sexually attractive with your new tat, That's just sad. Life is about choices and consequences. Prove that you deserve to be a member of the driving society, and you can have your life back. In 10 years.

Maybe it comes off harsh, or self-centric, but we should be more concerned about using the law to protect society, than protecting the "rights" of criminals.

"If you chose to operate outside the law you cannot claim protection from the law."

--Vince

[Willys]

Hmm..??? If you give someone a 50cc scooter and he sucks at it??? He will suck on a 1000cc sport bike...no??? BUT!!!...on a 50cc scooter he will only kill himself ...but on a 1000cc sportbike he has the oportunity to kill others....with added weight, speed he will cut people in two. With a 50cc scooter he will probably bounce off the side of a little smart car! Hopefully snapping his neck!!

I'm sorry....but to give an inexperienced person a more powerful object is a good recipe for disaster...IMHO!

[SpeedSouth]

I'll chime in with a few of my thoughts. 8)

Pentalties and fines are based largely on fear. If I speed I might lose my license or pay a hefty fine. Make the fines larger and the penalties more extreme in hopes of spreading that fear to the people who have the money to pay a hefty fine or don't care about points on a license.

Fear can be used as an effective tactic, but it's clearly not the best. Terrorism is based on fear, to use the most obvious example. But also consider the most extreme in the US...the death penalty. If fear was really effective, we'd have fewer murderers on death row.

Some people will act out of fear and do the right thing (with respect to laws), but it's clearly not universal.

The "shame" tactic works in part by fear (I'm afraid of riding that Jam-Tart! ) but I have to say I like the ideas because they use peers to provide the real punishment. Fun for the whole gang!

Rewards have always been proven to be the more effective training tool when compared to fear/punishment so I would like to see some rewards offered for better driving.

I know some insurance companies offer discounts, but they are not uniform or guaranteed. I want to see specific discounts that apply no matter who the insurer. Like (or with) the MVR driving history...a list of discounts. No speeding tickets? $XYZ discount per year. No accidents? $ABC discount per year. No moving violations (signals anyone?)? $ST discount per year.

The amounts could be worked out. Scaled up or down....whatever, but add some extra incentive to maintain a clean record.


I don't like the notion of a test every five years...but I'm selfish.
My license is valid for 10 years. Not only do I not have to test in 5 years, I don't even have to renew it until 2018!

Originally Posted by VinceDrake

Maybe it comes off harsh, or self-centric, but we should be more concerned about using the law to protect society, than protecting the "rights" of criminals.

"If you chose to operate outside the law you cannot claim protection from the law."

--Vince

It's the constitution (in the US) and more specifically The Bill of Rights that protect our rights, and it's the rights of all citizens, criminal or not.
I think that's the way it should be.

Great in theory, but a bit muddy in practice, unfortunately.
Enemy combatant? 8O :roll: :?

[VinceDrake]

Originally Posted by SpeedSouth

Rewards have always been proven to be the more effective training tool when compared to fear/punishment so I would like to see some rewards offered for better driving.

I know some insurance companies offer discounts, but they are not uniform or guaranteed. I want to see specific discounts that apply no matter who the insurer. Like (or with) the MVR driving history...a list of discounts. No speeding tickets? $XYZ discount per year. No accidents? $ABC discount per year. No moving violations (signals anyone?)? $ST discount per year.

The amounts could be worked out. Scaled up or down....whatever, but add some extra incentive to maintain a clean record.

In that respect, here in Sk. we only have 1 option for insurance-- Saskatchewan Government Insurance (SGI). Driving without Insurance is extremely illegal. But one thing they have been doing for the past few years is, 1 year clean driving equals 1 point. 1 point equals 2% discount on your insurance. to a max of 12 points. Certain violations are assigned a certain number of points, you lose your licence at 10 points (I think)

Personally, I think it's a great thing. (And I like the 20% discount!)

Of course there is a certain counter-culture effect at play too. Years ago, before the points system we had white, blue and red licences. White was Ok, Blue was 2 violations until revokes-ville and Red was near death. At the time I was a proud carrier of a red licence, and referred to speeding tickets as "High speed awards" or "Reasons to build a faster car" or "Couldn't outrun a Crown-Vic paper" Thinking about it, forget I wrote that last paragraph. It's kind of shaming.

Originally Posted by WillysWhomIRespectAndEnjoyReading

If you give someone a 50cc scooter and he sucks at it??? He will suck on a 1000cc sport bike...no??? BUT!!!...on a 50cc scooter he will only kill himself ...but on a 1000cc sportbike he has the oportunity to kill others....with added weight, speed he will cut people in two. With a 50cc scooter he will probably bounce off the side of a little smart car! Hopefully snapping his neck!!

I'm not so worried about what stupid thing they're doing, I'm more worried about what stupid thing I am going to do to avoid them, while they're doing stupid things.

Example: If I get cut off, and have to take the ditch, I don't much care if I got cut off by a 50cc Xingue Easy, or a Aprilia RS1000. I'm still in the ditch with my kids crying in the back, and my wife screaming.

--Vince

(Edited Once, due to Incompetance on my part)

[Jim]

We have discounts here too, I'm at 35 %, which is the highest I can be at for my age, 40 being the highest (I believe), with some special extra discount after that too... But this doesn't seem like a reward to me, it seems like they were gouging me and taking advantage of me, because I had no option. The rates even with their discount is still outrageous in my opinion. I mention them and compare to what I see some people getting in the USA for the same vehicle, with better coverage, and usually am told, but... some people can not get insurance. Good, they shouldn't be on the road, they are dangerous, and they are making me pay extra so they can drive unsafe. I understand the principal that it has to be like that, but the constant offenders or ones constantly crashing should not be covered by the good drivers. Just my $0.02

[warrior91]

In the big picture...If they are nuts enough to put everyones life in danger, they are crazy enough to drive WITHOUT ANY insurance...

:roll: Lets Ban anything that can hurt you ,me or the general public.
No guns ,bikes,cars,domesticated animals,salt, sex,or sharp sticks.
We can all stay home in bed , drink water and eat tofu ,stay safe and happy. :roll:

Banning stuff always solves things :roll: . How about pricing these big bikes out of the average mans grasp...like me buying a porsche,Lambo,lol.
If a guy is worth a few million likeley he has something else to live for...give poor white trash (like me) a RANK bike, and watch the sparks fly,cause this is the most excitement I have,and will ever have.

I am against putting lives in danger, but I am all for natural selection!!!

[Willys]

About the size of the vehicular size that is being used by said houligan.....again...if it's a 50cc zipper you still stand a better chance of staying alive if and IF he hits you, not so much with a 1000cc much heavier sport bike or whatever you want to put in this catagory. Why would you need to worry about him if he is on that zipper anyway...it hasn't the enertia(?) to harm you...scare the daylights out of you maybe ..but harm you...I think not. But with a 500lb bike doing 100mph hitting your vehicle it would cut you in two! You would have to be driving a huge vehicle to deal with that type of impact...wouldn't you?

But...like you say...there is always a part of society (young males usually) who need to proove their manhood to their other chest beating buddies. Yes I was one of them too...and darned proud of it...back them...not so much now! :oops: They don't care about laws or tickets or fines...it's can I get away with it again today? If they do..they will and will again tomorrow untill they either grow up or die.
It has been this way since christ was a cowboy. and always will be..IMHO.

So it comes back to regulating what they can drive or what the things they drive ...

Also...in England...while you are a learner without a full licience...you display a big red "L" on your vehicle to let others know you are about to kill them!! I like this!! It gives me a heads up to watch you more than I normally would to protect myself from you.
We here in Ontario, don't have this and I really think we should.

[warrior91]

Oh yah, we should be more worried about civilians/friendly soldiers killed by military than a few of "our"civilians killed.
If we can drop 500 lb bombs on populated areas, we should let our military ride a 500lb crotch missle however they want.

Maybe it would be cheaper to send our boys over issued with cbr600rr and let them smash everthing in site in Iraq,afganistan etc...Chances are good that they might actually hit Bin Ladens car! Can't be more expensive or more dangerous than it is at present...
Or how about this...Keep those slow Polaris military utvs and Hummers at home and get jp8 powered crotch rockets with contact explosive fairings sent over...Maybe we could just line up a bunchof 1000cc bikes with keys in them and let the enemy kill themselves off. :wink: :roll: