Help- Bad Clutch ?

putterputter · 04-13-2023, 08:14 PM

I went out for a 2 hr ride on my 2020 Brozz the other night and as i was going down the road in 3rd gear starting to shift to 4th , the bike starts slowing down like I lost the the chain, engine was reving fine but bike just rolled to a stop, i looked down and the chain was still there. Left the bike there and went and got the trailer and towed it home, once i got it off the trailer and fired it back up it, about an hour later, it went into gear and rode it into the garage and i put it away for the night , next day i got up fired it up put in in 1st and the same thing , wont move, clutch not engageing , dash says 1st gear, same with all the other gears.

Drained the oil but did not see anything in it, alway run 10w40 synthetic since break in. Clutch cable seems to be working fine, but never feel the friction zone.

Did the clutch just go out or am i missing something. I have about 4200 easy miles on it as i am a senor rider.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Megadan · 04-13-2023, 08:36 PM

I would definitely suspect an issue with the clutch or a mechanism related to it. You can always back off and re-set the clutch adjustment to see if that helps. Maybe the clutch arm or the shaft it moves is binding up on something.

Before somebody says it, no the synthetic oil is not causing it. If anybody wants to argue my Hawk has been running synthetic it's entire life.

putterputter · 04-13-2023, 08:57 PM

yes, i adjusted the cable both ways and it seem to be pulling the clutch lever foward , but the clutch never engages. It only seems to engage when the engine is cold and I push it with the engine off. Once the engine heats up the clutch doesn't engage.

Mudflap · 04-13-2023, 09:16 PM

Is the oil you use compatible with a wet clutch?

Thumper · 04-13-2023, 09:39 PM

Well, there is a spring on the lever that sits on the top of the clutch housing, right? This is what Megadan referred to as the clutch arm. So that might be what is making the hand lever (at the handlebar) feel OK.

Whereas it is possible that the basket springs are not compressing the friction plates or insufficiently when you let go of the clutch.

It isn't that big of a deal to get in there, though you would have to drain the oil again. Total failure to get any pull at all is odd, especially in 1st gear. Clutches weaken usually, not necessarily fail catastrophically. They usually slip more and more, suggesting weak springs on the basket, worn out friction plates, or both.

Can you see the lever on top of the case (clutch arm) on the right side move when you pull the clutch? The spring there doesn't compress the friction plates, just pulls the cable back and allows the springs on the basket to compress the friction plates to connect the engine to the drive axel-turn the front sprocket.

Good strong springs on the clutch basket will make it harder to pull the clutch. Weak failing springs offer less resistance when you pull the clutch.

putterputter · 04-13-2023, 09:59 PM

i am using moblie 1 motorcyle 10w40 synthic.

I see the clutch arm moving about an inch when i pull the clutch lever in. Maybe some of the strands in the cable broke and streched it out.

it does not seem to drop in gear when i pull the clutch lever in and try to shift it, even though the gear indicator show a gear, but not sure how accurate that is.

tknj99 · 04-14-2023, 08:01 AM

My son's Brozz had the throttle cable snap at similar mileage, i would suspect the cable to be the culprit

Thumper · 04-14-2023, 08:29 AM

The gear position indicator only lights up the presently engaged gear if it has rotated to that position. It is shifting.

Get the rear wheel off the ground. Engine cold, not running. But switched on so you can see the gear position indicator. Then gently shift it (no clutch) by hand while rotating the rear wheel. You should feel the gear shift moving the transmission into each gear, successively. And there should be some resistance to turning the wheel by hand (in fact, it should stop turning completely if in gear and engine not running). You should need to rotate the rear wheel while shifting for the dogs to line up in the transmission while the gears slide sideways on the shafts to engage. You can feel the transmission changing gears. Maybe watch a YouTube video to see what I mean.

If the cable was lengthening due to strand breakage, the clutch would not fully release the pressure plates or not at all -the clutch would drag, not slip more. So shifting into gear with engine running would be loud (crack) and the motorcycle would lurch forward, as if you were not pulling the clutch enough. It would not cause what you are experiencing (slippage).

If your hand shifting clearly puts it in first, and you are still able to turn the rear wheel by hand, the friction plates are not connecting the engine to the final drive. Remove the clutch cable at the clutch arm. If this changes nothing, either your clutch is not squeezing the pressure plates together (bad springs), or they are getting compressed together weakly and you have worn out plates, or they are working but you have a catastrophic fail in gearing. If you have SOME pull, it is probably not catastrophic gearing/tranny breakage. But at that point you have to crack open the case and inspect the clutch basket.

Huck369 · 04-14-2023, 11:33 AM

Check and make sure there isn't an issue with the front sprocket....not likely, but something to check

zero_dgz · 04-14-2023, 01:30 PM

Agreed. Having the splines rip out of the sprocket or its countershaft will definitely ensure you're going nowhere! Ditto with having all the teeth worn to nubbins, although that's usually also quite noisy.

On these Honda-inspired engines, the front sprocket is held in alignment on the countershaft by two small bolts. The torque is actually transferred through the splines on the shaft, not the bolts, but if the bolts come undone the sprocket can slide on the shaft to its removal position, i.e. where it is no longer engaged with the splines. If that's the case the bolts will probably be nowhere to be found, also, since they'll be ejected out the back by the chain.

If the sprocket cover on the Brozz is anything like the Hawks and my Bashan, and I'll bet you it is, it's got no holes or slots in it so you can't see what's going on in there without taking it off. It's just three (IIRC) 8mm head bolts.

J4Fun · 04-14-2023, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thumper

The gear position indicator only lights up the presently engaged gear if it has rotated to that position. It is shifting.

Get the rear wheel off the ground. Engine cold, not running. But switched on so you can see the gear position indicator. Then gently shift it (no clutch) by hand while rotating the rear wheel. You should feel the gear shift moving the transmission into each gear, successively. And there should be some resistance to turning the wheel by hand (in fact, it should stop turning completely if in gear and engine not running). You should need to rotate the rear wheel while shifting for the dogs to line up in the transmission while the gears slide sideways on the shafts to engage. You can feel the transmission changing gears. Maybe watch a YouTube video to see what I mean.

If the cable was lengthening due to strand breakage, the clutch would not fully release the pressure plates or not at all -the clutch would drag, not slip more. So shifting into gear with engine running would be loud (crack) and the motorcycle would lurch forward, as if you were not pulling the clutch enough. It would not cause what you are experiencing (slippage).

If your hand shifting clearly puts it in first, and you are still able to turn the rear wheel by hand, the friction plates are not connecting the engine to the final drive. Remove the clutch cable at the clutch arm. If this changes nothing, either your clutch is not squeezing the pressure plates together (bad springs), or they are getting compressed together weakly and you have worn out plates, or they are working but you have a catastrophic fail in gearing. If you have SOME pull, it is probably not catastrophic gearing/tranny breakage. But at that point you have to crack open the case and inspect the clutch basket.

This is one post I would reread again if I had this problem. One other thing, you’ll find out how easy it is to pop the clutch cover off and fix the problem. I think you have had a spring or two break IMO. Just thinking outloud!

putterputter · 04-14-2023, 06:03 PM

ok, thanks for all your replies, i think i have found the issue, after a good look over the cables and rest of the bike i noticed the chain was a little slack. pulled the front spocket cover and noticed the chain was able to spin with the engine off while in netural and 1st , so pushed it out into the yard and started it up , put it in first and the chain started spinning but not going anywhere. looked at rear sprocket and all the bolts were broke off clean.

So it looks like engine , clutch and all are good, but the bad news is how to get the sprocket bolts out , i also think i saw a post some where about the Bolts being soft and how some people replaced them with honda bolts. any ideas on best way to get them out and other ideas of stuff to check while i am at it?

Megadan · 04-14-2023, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by putterputter

ok, thanks for all your replies, i think i have found the issue, after a good look over the cables and rest of the bike i noticed the chain was a little slack. pulled the front spocket cover and noticed the chain was able to spin with the engine off while in netural and 1st , so pushed it out into the yard and started it up , put it in first and the chain started spinning but not going anywhere. looked at rear sprocket and all the bolts were broke off clean.

So it looks like engine , clutch and all are good, but the bad news is how to get the sprocket bolts out , i also think i saw a post some where about the Bolts being soft and how some people replaced them with honda bolts. any ideas on best way to get them out and other ideas of stuff to check while i am at it?

The good news is, they won't be hard to get out. The rear sprocket is held on to the wheel with a large external snap ring. The "studs" are a part of the cush drive and simply slot into the bushings in the hub.

Honda OEM studs are part number 90128-ke2-940 to replace the broken one. The chinese versions tend to be very hit or miss in quality, some break, others don't.

Thumper · 04-14-2023, 09:47 PM

Oh, door number three! I never even thought about the rear sprocket mounting bolts. That is a new one for me!

putterputter · 04-14-2023, 10:03 PM

Thanks Megadan.

Just in case my local honda dealer don't have them in stock is there a amazon replacement bolt i can order?

Even if i put something in now i can still ride while i wait for part to come in.

Also any idea of why all 4 sheared off, i ride pretty conservatively , but do get out on gravel roads sometimes.

Thanks again to everyone, hope this solves it.

04-13-2023, 08:14 PM	#1
putterputter Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Ohio Posts: 21	Help- Bad Clutch ? I went out for a 2 hr ride on my 2020 Brozz the other night and as i was going down the road in 3rd gear starting to shift to 4th , the bike starts slowing down like I lost the the chain, engine was reving fine but bike just rolled to a stop, i looked down and the chain was still there. Left the bike there and went and got the trailer and towed it home, once i got it off the trailer and fired it back up it, about an hour later, it went into gear and rode it into the garage and i put it away for the night , next day i got up fired it up put in in 1st and the same thing , wont move, clutch not engageing , dash says 1st gear, same with all the other gears. Drained the oil but did not see anything in it, alway run 10w40 synthetic since break in. Clutch cable seems to be working fine, but never feel the friction zone. Did the clutch just go out or am i missing something. I have about 4200 easy miles on it as i am a senor rider. Any help is greatly appreciated.
	0

04-13-2023, 08:36 PM	#2
Megadan Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Omaha, NE Posts: 7,909	I would definitely suspect an issue with the clutch or a mechanism related to it. You can always back off and re-set the clutch adjustment to see if that helps. Maybe the clutch arm or the shaft it moves is binding up on something. Before somebody says it, no the synthetic oil is not causing it. If anybody wants to argue my Hawk has been running synthetic it's entire life. __________________ 2018 Hawk 250 - Full Mod list here. http://www.chinariders.net/showpost....62&postcount=1 Hawk Information and Resource guide: http://www.chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=20331 2010 VFR1200F - http://chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=20708
	0

04-13-2023, 09:39 PM	#5
Thumper Join Date: Feb 2021 Location: Kansas City Posts: 2,205	Well, there is a spring on the lever that sits on the top of the clutch housing, right? This is what Megadan referred to as the clutch arm. So that might be what is making the hand lever (at the handlebar) feel OK. Whereas it is possible that the basket springs are not compressing the friction plates or insufficiently when you let go of the clutch. It isn't that big of a deal to get in there, though you would have to drain the oil again. Total failure to get any pull at all is odd, especially in 1st gear. Clutches weaken usually, not necessarily fail catastrophically. They usually slip more and more, suggesting weak springs on the basket, worn out friction plates, or both. Can you see the lever on top of the case (clutch arm) on the right side move when you pull the clutch? The spring there doesn't compress the friction plates, just pulls the cable back and allows the springs on the basket to compress the friction plates to connect the engine to the drive axel-turn the front sprocket. Good strong springs on the clutch basket will make it harder to pull the clutch. Weak failing springs offer less resistance when you pull the clutch. __________________ -2022 5 speed Templar X Orange, OEM 51T rear sprocket, 14T front sprocket -NOS 2020 KTM 250SX (2-stroke motocross), less than 10 hours on it
	1

04-14-2023, 08:01 AM	#7
tknj99 Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: Central VA Posts: 1,246	My son's Brozz had the throttle cable snap at similar mileage, i would suspect the cable to be the culprit __________________ 2024 Zuma Storm 150 DLX 2019 Beta 430 RRS 2017 Honda Fury Former China Bikes: Tao DBX1, Brozz 250, CSC RX4, Titan DLX, Templar X
	0

04-14-2023, 08:29 AM	#8
Thumper Join Date: Feb 2021 Location: Kansas City Posts: 2,205	The gear position indicator only lights up the presently engaged gear if it has rotated to that position. It is shifting. Get the rear wheel off the ground. Engine cold, not running. But switched on so you can see the gear position indicator. Then gently shift it (no clutch) by hand while rotating the rear wheel. You should feel the gear shift moving the transmission into each gear, successively. And there should be some resistance to turning the wheel by hand (in fact, it should stop turning completely if in gear and engine not running). You should need to rotate the rear wheel while shifting for the dogs to line up in the transmission while the gears slide sideways on the shafts to engage. You can feel the transmission changing gears. Maybe watch a YouTube video to see what I mean. If the cable was lengthening due to strand breakage, the clutch would not fully release the pressure plates or not at all -the clutch would drag, not slip more. So shifting into gear with engine running would be loud (crack) and the motorcycle would lurch forward, as if you were not pulling the clutch enough. It would not cause what you are experiencing (slippage). If your hand shifting clearly puts it in first, and you are still able to turn the rear wheel by hand, the friction plates are not connecting the engine to the final drive. Remove the clutch cable at the clutch arm. If this changes nothing, either your clutch is not squeezing the pressure plates together (bad springs), or they are getting compressed together weakly and you have worn out plates, or they are working but you have a catastrophic fail in gearing. If you have SOME pull, it is probably not catastrophic gearing/tranny breakage. But at that point you have to crack open the case and inspect the clutch basket. __________________ -2022 5 speed Templar X Orange, OEM 51T rear sprocket, 14T front sprocket -NOS 2020 KTM 250SX (2-stroke motocross), less than 10 hours on it Last edited by Thumper; 04-14-2023 at 09:41 AM.
	2

04-13-2023, 08:57 PM	#3
putterputter Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Ohio Posts: 21	yes, i adjusted the cable both ways and it seem to be pulling the clutch lever foward , but the clutch never engages. It only seems to engage when the engine is cold and I push it with the engine off. Once the engine heats up the clutch doesn't engage.
	0

04-13-2023, 09:16 PM	#4
Mudflap Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 1,870	Is the oil you use compatible with a wet clutch?
	0

04-13-2023, 09:59 PM	#6
putterputter Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Ohio Posts: 21	i am using moblie 1 motorcyle 10w40 synthic. I see the clutch arm moving about an inch when i pull the clutch lever in. Maybe some of the strands in the cable broke and streched it out. it does not seem to drop in gear when i pull the clutch lever in and try to shift it, even though the gear indicator show a gear, but not sure how accurate that is.
	0

04-14-2023, 11:33 AM	#9
Huck369 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Somerset, KY Posts: 684	Check and make sure there isn't an issue with the front sprocket....not likely, but something to check __________________ Huck 2013 Honda NC700X 2013 Moto Guzzi V7 Stone 2016 AJP PR4 2022 Templar X 250 2021 Sondors Metacycle AMA Life Member
	0

04-14-2023, 01:30 PM	#10
zero_dgz Join Date: Jan 2020 Posts: 243	Agreed. Having the splines rip out of the sprocket or its countershaft will definitely ensure you're going nowhere! Ditto with having all the teeth worn to nubbins, although that's usually also quite noisy. On these Honda-inspired engines, the front sprocket is held in alignment on the countershaft by two small bolts. The torque is actually transferred through the splines on the shaft, not the bolts, but if the bolts come undone the sprocket can slide on the shaft to its removal position, i.e. where it is no longer engaged with the splines. If that's the case the bolts will probably be nowhere to be found, also, since they'll be ejected out the back by the chain. If the sprocket cover on the Brozz is anything like the Hawks and my Bashan, and I'll bet you it is, it's got no holes or slots in it so you can't see what's going on in there without taking it off. It's just three (IIRC) 8mm head bolts.
	0

04-14-2023, 06:03 PM	#12
putterputter Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Ohio Posts: 21	ok, thanks for all your replies, i think i have found the issue, after a good look over the cables and rest of the bike i noticed the chain was a little slack. pulled the front spocket cover and noticed the chain was able to spin with the engine off while in netural and 1st , so pushed it out into the yard and started it up , put it in first and the chain started spinning but not going anywhere. looked at rear sprocket and all the bolts were broke off clean. So it looks like engine , clutch and all are good, but the bad news is how to get the sprocket bolts out , i also think i saw a post some where about the Bolts being soft and how some people replaced them with honda bolts. any ideas on best way to get them out and other ideas of stuff to check while i am at it?
	1

04-14-2023, 09:47 PM	#14
Thumper Join Date: Feb 2021 Location: Kansas City Posts: 2,205	Oh, door number three! I never even thought about the rear sprocket mounting bolts. That is a new one for me! __________________ -2022 5 speed Templar X Orange, OEM 51T rear sprocket, 14T front sprocket -NOS 2020 KTM 250SX (2-stroke motocross), less than 10 hours on it
	0

04-14-2023, 10:03 PM	#15
putterputter Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Ohio Posts: 21	Thanks Megadan. Just in case my local honda dealer don't have them in stock is there a amazon replacement bolt i can order? Even if i put something in now i can still ride while i wait for part to come in. Also any idea of why all 4 sheared off, i ride pretty conservatively , but do get out on gravel roads sometimes. Thanks again to everyone, hope this solves it.
	0