2021 Hawk 250 Transmission Issue

Brook · 11-28-2022, 09:50 PM

Hey y’all. My name is Brooklyn. Some people call me Brook, some simply “B”. I’m a single mom in South Texas and just bought my first Hawk dual sport. It’s the base model with carb and less optimal equipment than the upgraded version. Bad ass lil bike, but… the guy I bought it from beat the crap out of it and was one of those excessive, obsessive wheelie guys. Anyways……

When I first start it cold everything is very, VERY good. Once it warms up, I get this weird shifting thing going on. I like to start out in second because it’s geared so low. It’s almost easier on the engine and tranny in most situations to do so. But regardless when I shift from first to second, or for that matter start out in second, theres this noise followed by a slight jump. It almost feels like what you would experience with a chain way too slack and its struggling to stay on the rear cog when it catches but auto corrects. It also does it in first. Or, first AND second if I work my way through. Here’s the kicker, it’s always, and ONLY at the very very very end of the friction zone just as I come completely off the clutch.

So here’s what I’m assuming. There seems to be no separate transmission fluid, which means that the engine oil would have to be doing the lubrication of the entire system. I checked the oil and it’s pitch black so the previous owner is full of it when he said that he had just done it. Would it stand to reason that the problem is being caused by the oil loosing its viscosity once it heats up and it’s not doing a sufficient job of lubricating the transmission, or is there something else entirely that I need to look at??? The reason I’m thinking oil problem is it only happens once the engine warms.

Also, separate question. Is it “bad” to shift through the gears both up and down without using the clutch? My autism makes me freakishly good at it and I can do it more gently that way than I can with it.

TominMO · 11-28-2022, 10:17 PM

First off, change the oil with good motorcycle oil. Who knows what he put in there? Then see how it performs.

Megadan · 11-28-2022, 10:51 PM

I do agree with doing an oil change. Give the bike a proper service with that and maybe a valve check. Make sure the cables are lubed and adjusted properly. Gives a good foundation to start with when you know all the basic stuff is taken care of.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it needs new a new clutch though. These bikes aren't super powerful and fairly tall and heavy so they aren't the easiest thing in the world to wheelie. Lots of clutch up wheelies tend to take their toll.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brook

Also, separate question. Is it “bad” to shift through the gears both up and down without using the clutch? My autism makes me freakishly good at it and I can do it more gently that way than I can with it.

It's not really bad or good to do this. It is bad to do it incorrectly on a regular basis. The biggest issue you can get from clutchless shifting is premature wear on the dogs of the gears and if you preload the shift fork too much or too often on the shift fork pads.

You honestly don't need that much clutch to shift between gears anyway. I shift by only pulling in the clutch an inch or two instead of all the way back. Basically just a quick little tap of the lever with a couple of fingers. That is all it takes to disengage power from the shaft and allow the tension on the gears to relax for it to go to the next gear.

KenTaoyan · 11-29-2022, 11:26 AM

Also, separate question. Is it “bad” to shift through the gears both up and down without using the clutch? My autism makes me freakishly good at it and I can do it more gently that way than I can with it.[/QUOTE]

in my younger years I drove a car (v-8, 4sp) for 3 months without a clutch. It's all in finding the right feel for the right RPM when shifting.

Thumper · 11-29-2022, 04:49 PM

I knew this guy in Cleveland that drove a classic GS750 (maybe a 20 year old bike). He used the clutch to get going, and then consistently shifted without a clutch.

The original GS series was overbuilt, and he could get away with this, but as Megadan states, the dogs on the gears will get worn down abnormally fast. It also hits the bearings on each side of the two shafts in the tranny harder every time you do it. This is especially significant with the inertia involved in a 4 cylinder engine, but not insignificant for the 169FMM ZS clone. You don't feel it, but the rpm of the crank is instantly changed (INERTIA). The dogs are the side links that connect input shaft to output shaft gears in the tranny. No clutch means they hit hard and the transmission controlling roller also gets shocked. Sure, you can shift without using the clutch. I remember getting really good at it. I thought I was clever

But I stopped and use the clutch all the time. No need to stress the transmission or the bearings on the transmission. It is up to you.

It sounds like the bike was abused pretty much already. Personally, I'd be careful with it, especially until I got used to it and assessed the damage.

buzz · 12-01-2022, 08:02 AM

What Thumper said ,use clutch.

Brook · 12-02-2022, 08:50 PM

Hey guys. Awesome advice here thus far. I am SO glad I changed the oil. It literally only had about 2.5 cups in the damn thing and it was watery black gross stuff that looked nothing like oil is supposed to look.

That said it’s still doing the grindy jumpy thing at the end of the clutch lever stroke when I release it. Doesn’t matter how fast or slow I do it.

I did a search for the spmptoms of a bad clutch and they seem to fit, however when I do use clutchless shifting, it doesn’t do the grindy jumpy thing. So I did a search on how to replace the clutch, but every single video I can find only shows people changing out the springs. Which makes me wonder, could changing the springs be completely sufficient, of do I need to change the clutch as well.

On that note but a separate but related question, I hate the feel of the clutch lever on this bike. It’s hard for my hands to pull. I don’t know if it’s a girl thing and I lack strength (I mean I can pull it but I get fatigued easially) or if they genuinely just suck. How can I make this feel better while I’m at it?

XLsior · 12-02-2022, 09:10 PM

Megadan · 12-02-2022, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brook

Hey guys. Awesome advice here thus far. I am SO glad I changed the oil. It literally only had about 2.5 cups in the damn thing and it was watery black gross stuff that looked nothing like oil is supposed to look.

That said it’s still doing the grindy jumpy thing at the end of the clutch lever stroke when I release it. Doesn’t matter how fast or slow I do it.

I did a search for the spmptoms of a bad clutch and they seem to fit, however when I do use clutchless shifting, it doesn’t do the grindy jumpy thing. So I did a search on how to replace the clutch, but every single video I can find only shows people changing out the springs. Which makes me wonder, could changing the springs be completely sufficient, of do I need to change the clutch as well.

On that note but a separate but related question, I hate the feel of the clutch lever on this bike. It’s hard for my hands to pull. I don’t know if it’s a girl thing and I lack strength (I mean I can pull it but I get fatigued easially) or if they genuinely just suck. How can I make this feel better while I’m at it?

The clutch discs aren't that much more work than replacing the springs. If you remove all of the springs and their related bolts all it takes after that is removing the snap ring that retains the pressure plate to the main shaft. You then need to remove the oil spinner (3 screws and then a 4 point castle nut) to get the pressure plate out.

With that out of the way it should pull out and the discs can all be removed at that point.

My 2 cents. That engine was run dry and since this bike has a wet clutch the clutch is most definitely ruined.

As far as the clutch being stiff... It shouldn't be that hard to pull. My Hawk is one of the lightest clutch pulls of any motorcycle I have ever owned (more than a couple dozen). If I had to guess the lever pivot and the cable both need cleaned and lubricated.

As for a side note - the clutch spring upgrade will make the stock clutch just a teeny bit firmer but it should still be fairly easy to pull. The real benefit has to do with both clutch feel and better resistance to fade issues when it gets hot.

Brook · 12-04-2022, 04:43 PM

Okay so I definitely want to get this fixed as quickly as possible, but I’m on a super tight budget. I am looking at parts on the web and don’t know what I’m looking at.

Could y’all potentially send me some links to whatever parts/special tools I’d need to make this problem go away please?

11-28-2022, 09:50 PM	#1
Brook Join Date: Nov 2022 Posts: 10	2021 Hawk 250 Transmission Issue Hey y’all. My name is Brooklyn. Some people call me Brook, some simply “B”. I’m a single mom in South Texas and just bought my first Hawk dual sport. It’s the base model with carb and less optimal equipment than the upgraded version. Bad ass lil bike, but… the guy I bought it from beat the crap out of it and was one of those excessive, obsessive wheelie guys. Anyways…… When I first start it cold everything is very, VERY good. Once it warms up, I get this weird shifting thing going on. I like to start out in second because it’s geared so low. It’s almost easier on the engine and tranny in most situations to do so. But regardless when I shift from first to second, or for that matter start out in second, theres this noise followed by a slight jump. It almost feels like what you would experience with a chain way too slack and its struggling to stay on the rear cog when it catches but auto corrects. It also does it in first. Or, first AND second if I work my way through. Here’s the kicker, it’s always, and ONLY at the very very very end of the friction zone just as I come completely off the clutch. So here’s what I’m assuming. There seems to be no separate transmission fluid, which means that the engine oil would have to be doing the lubrication of the entire system. I checked the oil and it’s pitch black so the previous owner is full of it when he said that he had just done it. Would it stand to reason that the problem is being caused by the oil loosing its viscosity once it heats up and it’s not doing a sufficient job of lubricating the transmission, or is there something else entirely that I need to look at??? The reason I’m thinking oil problem is it only happens once the engine warms. Also, separate question. Is it “bad” to shift through the gears both up and down without using the clutch? My autism makes me freakishly good at it and I can do it more gently that way than I can with it.
	0

11-28-2022, 10:17 PM	#2
TominMO Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: De Soto, MO Posts: 1,868	First off, change the oil with good motorcycle oil. Who knows what he put in there? Then see how it performs. __________________ 2021 Lifan Xpect--sold 2022 Lifan KPX 1972 Honda CT90--The Carrot 1969 Honda CT90--The Tomahto Cheesy is the WDK (workplace drama king). Now retired. Nope, back in the saddle. Climate: The Movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A24fWmNA6lM How our government really works https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjadCd0VRBw Question all authority.....think for yourself
	1

11-29-2022, 11:26 AM	#4
KenTaoyan Join Date: May 2020 Location: Des Moines WA Posts: 81	Also, separate question. Is it “bad” to shift through the gears both up and down without using the clutch? My autism makes me freakishly good at it and I can do it more gently that way than I can with it.[/QUOTE] in my younger years I drove a car (v-8, 4sp) for 3 months without a clutch. It's all in finding the right feel for the right RPM when shifting. __________________ ~ toys in the cave (in the order of addition) 81 Honda XL185s {work in progress} 2015 TaoTao 125cc Quad {junk} 2018 QIYI Coolster 150cc Quad 2019 QIYI Coolster 125cc Quad 2020 Hawk 250cc (Brand New work in progress) 2021 Roughhouse 50 (neat little scooter for the wife) I may not be fast but I am "Half-Fast"
	0

11-29-2022, 04:49 PM	#5
Thumper Join Date: Feb 2021 Location: Kansas City Posts: 2,237	I knew this guy in Cleveland that drove a classic GS750 (maybe a 20 year old bike). He used the clutch to get going, and then consistently shifted without a clutch. The original GS series was overbuilt, and he could get away with this, but as Megadan states, the dogs on the gears will get worn down abnormally fast. It also hits the bearings on each side of the two shafts in the tranny harder every time you do it. This is especially significant with the inertia involved in a 4 cylinder engine, but not insignificant for the 169FMM ZS clone. You don't feel it, but the rpm of the crank is instantly changed (INERTIA). The dogs are the side links that connect input shaft to output shaft gears in the tranny. No clutch means they hit hard and the transmission controlling roller also gets shocked. Sure, you can shift without using the clutch. I remember getting really good at it. I thought I was clever But I stopped and use the clutch all the time. No need to stress the transmission or the bearings on the transmission. It is up to you. It sounds like the bike was abused pretty much already. Personally, I'd be careful with it, especially until I got used to it and assessed the damage.
	1

12-01-2022, 08:02 AM	#6
buzz Join Date: Dec 2020 Location: Dayton Pa. Posts: 857	What Thumper said ,use clutch.
	0

12-02-2022, 08:50 PM	#7
Brook Join Date: Nov 2022 Posts: 10	Hey guys. Awesome advice here thus far. I am SO glad I changed the oil. It literally only had about 2.5 cups in the damn thing and it was watery black gross stuff that looked nothing like oil is supposed to look. That said it’s still doing the grindy jumpy thing at the end of the clutch lever stroke when I release it. Doesn’t matter how fast or slow I do it. I did a search for the spmptoms of a bad clutch and they seem to fit, however when I do use clutchless shifting, it doesn’t do the grindy jumpy thing. So I did a search on how to replace the clutch, but every single video I can find only shows people changing out the springs. Which makes me wonder, could changing the springs be completely sufficient, of do I need to change the clutch as well. On that note but a separate but related question, I hate the feel of the clutch lever on this bike. It’s hard for my hands to pull. I don’t know if it’s a girl thing and I lack strength (I mean I can pull it but I get fatigued easially) or if they genuinely just suck. How can I make this feel better while I’m at it?
	0

12-02-2022, 09:10 PM	#8
XLsior Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Australia Posts: 1,278
	0

12-04-2022, 04:43 PM	#10
Brook Join Date: Nov 2022 Posts: 10	Okay so I definitely want to get this fixed as quickly as possible, but I’m on a super tight budget. I am looking at parts on the web and don’t know what I’m looking at. Could y’all potentially send me some links to whatever parts/special tools I’d need to make this problem go away please?
	0