Breaking into the locked gas cap

RC · 06-02-2018, 04:19 PM

So I pulled into a gas station today, put my key in to the gas tank and hear a snap/click noise. The key didn't break, it looks fine, unworn, goes in and out smoothly. It also turns 90 degrees smoothly, with no tension at all, and therefor doesn't unlock the cap. Something in the lock mechanism has broken, maybe a spring. So I can't put anymore gas in, so I'm rather stranded mid-trip.

I think I have enough gas that I can get to a city tomorrow where there might be a locksmith. I'm not sure if that would help or not, but its the best option for now. If the connection between the turnkey and the lock retraction is broke, then I don't see a locksmith or a screwdriver working. If that doesn't work, who has suggestions??

I already tried removing the 7 allen bolts in the ring, but to no avail- after a call to CSC I found there are actually 8, with the 8th being under the gas cap.

The locking mechanism looks very robust, and too much prying might damage the tank. I'm also worried that if I do break into it, there will not be a seal to keep the tank pressurized. I don't know what effect this will have, but possibly the bike won't run at all, or not with any performance??

At any rate, even if I have to replace the whole cap with a new one, I first have to get into it to remove the 8th bolt. If I have to break stuff, I'm thinking to try and snap the hinge pin with a flathead and hammer. Any advice is welcomed!

sqwert · 06-02-2018, 04:34 PM

Locksmiths have skills you never dreamed of. Seek advice from an expert.

Hawk 229cc · 06-02-2018, 05:01 PM

could try tiny bit of supper glue at the end of the key to see if you can get it out other wise just pop it open should not be to hard then replace the cap an key

ben2go · 06-02-2018, 06:05 PM

There's no pressure in the tank and there should be no pressure in the tank. If you have to break the cap off, it shouldn't hurt the seal or sealing surface of the tank. Duck tape the tank closed with a couple of pin holes in the tape to get home.

Jay In Milpitas · 06-03-2018, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawk 229cc

could try tiny bit of supper glue at the end of the key to see if you can get it out other wise just pop it open should not be to hard then replace the cap an key

He said the key did not break. Is that what you were referring to?

RC · 06-03-2018, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ben2go

There's no pressure in the tank and there should be no pressure in the tank. If you have to break the cap off, it shouldn't hurt the seal or sealing surface of the tank. Duck tape the tank closed with a couple of pin holes in the tape to get home.

Do you have any experience to confirm this??

This is contrary to what the CSC guy told me, but to be honest, he didn't seem to have any specific knowledge of it either. His only reference was to other brands of MCs where they had to use some plastic over the cap to try to create suction within the tank because the cap lost its seal. He also referenced fuel injection and how cars throw a check engine light if the gas cap is loose- thought in my experience they still run fine with gas cap loose/off, they just have terrible gas mileage due to the fact gas fumes are constantly escaping.

Only fill the tank half full, use duck tape or a compressing strap, and it would be under my magnetic tank bag to keep a little pressure on it. I could manage quite a while on that. Will just have to avoid going off-road for a while until I get a replacement shipped.

Though I think prying upwards on the cap might cause the lock to damage the tank, so that a replacement cap/lock wouldn't be useful at all.

ben2go · 06-03-2018, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RC

Do you have any experience to confirm this??

This is contrary to what the CSC guy told me, but to be honest, he didn't seem to have any specific knowledge of it either. His only reference was to other brands of MCs where they had to use some plastic over the cap to try to create suction within the tank because the cap lost its seal. He also referenced fuel injection and how cars throw a check engine light if the gas cap is loose- thought in my experience they still run fine with gas cap loose/off, they just have terrible gas mileage due to the fact gas fumes are constantly escaping.

Only fill the tank half full, use duck tape or a compressing strap, and it would be under my magnetic tank bag to keep a little pressure on it. I could manage quite a while on that. Will just have to avoid going off-road for a while until I get a replacement shipped.

Though I think prying upwards on the cap might cause the lock to damage the tank, so that a replacement cap/lock wouldn't be useful at all.

Yes I do. About 30 years of working on motorcycles and many other vehicles including aircraft.

sqwert · 06-03-2018, 01:29 PM

Tank is vented to reduce vacuum when fuel is pumped out. No pressure in tank. Vents usually open to atmosphere, but some picky government boondoglers (think Kalifornicators) with delusions of intelligence require a filter system. Vent is through a carbon filter that absorbs fuel vapors, which are then drawn out by engine vacuum while running, so carbon never needs replacing. That's pretty much how the rest of the world deals with fuel vapors, but tanks are generally not sealed and NEVER pressurized due to fire/explosion hazards.

Anywho, you can drill the lock itself, pick out the pieces, small needle nose and/or ignition pliers let you pull out lots of pieces. Keep working at it until you free the lock mechanism and no damage to any important part.

From a locksmith's perspective with an unknown lock, it's a cylinder type, like the key mechanism in a car door. I expect if very careful you can remove the lock and still latch the cap, the mechanisms are hooked together somehow, but still 2 mechanisms with different purposes. If you can get the lock out of the way a screwdriver will usually work the latch just fine. I only have experience with a few hundred other brands of locks so don't know for sure about the RX3 gas cap. Mine works fine. Let us know what you find out.

CSC has replacement gas caps.

RX3 runs fine with gas cap not sealed. Water gets in, fuel gets out.

Working_ZS · 06-03-2018, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RC

He also referenced fuel injection and how cars throw a check engine light if the gas cap is loose- thought in my experience they still run fine with gas cap loose/off, they just have terrible gas mileage due to the fact gas fumes are constantly escaping.

Only fill the tank half full, use duck tape or a compressing strap, and it would be under my magnetic tank bag to keep a little pressure on it. I could manage quite a while on that. Will just have to avoid going off-road for a while until I get a replacement shipped.

Though I think prying upwards on the cap might cause the lock to damage the tank, so that a replacement cap/lock wouldn't be useful at all.

The RX3 does not have an EVAP pressure sensor on the gas tank, so no DTC's that will illuminate the check engine light will be thrown.

To deal with your immediate issue, removal of the gas cap, I would take a Dremel cut off tool with a small diameter abrasive cut off disc and sever the cap at the hinge. This will allow you to open the tank to add fuel, although the seal will be sub-optimal, to say the least, when you try to close it. I would only put in 3/4 of a tank, at most, until a new gas cap assembly can be installed.

I agree with your assessment regarding prying up on the cap. You will definitely damage the lip of the tank where the latch engages with it, and you may not be able to get a reliable seal with a new cap afterwards. This would necessitate a new gas tank, which is more than a new cap.

In short, my advice is to destroy the cap, in the manner recommended above, and save the tank.

RC · 06-04-2018, 09:29 AM

Thanks for the help! It has been repaired and I'll be on the road again tomorrow.

Since my bulgarian is, well, almost non-existent, I had some help in contacting 2 local locksmiths here in Plovdiv. One said he couldn't do it but recommended another guy. He came and at first I wasn't too confident, he just seemed to try to jimmy the lock with some thin metal tools under the cap. He was having no success so I told him to drill or break the cap, but don't damage the tank. He made some drill holes and eventually was able to get the thing free. I think it only came free because he kept fumbling with it until the screws on the bottom came loose and the lock wasn't secure anymore. In fact one scree fell inside the tank. Had to use a magnet to get it out.

His assessment was that a screw came loose and caused the lock to not function, probably beyond the reach of the unlock lever/mechanism. He got it all back together and used loctite on the screws. Charge was about $40 USD, a bit high I thought, but cheaper than ordering a new tank cap and getting it shipped.

I have never paid particular attention to tightness of the inner gas cap fitting. I just filled up the day before and didn't notice anything out of ordinary. I was on some really rough mountain roads and trails for most of that time, like had a wheel come off the ground several times kinda rough, so perhaps it just wiggled and vibrated itself loose.

So, I recommend putting a screwdriver on those to make sure they are tight, or even add some loctite. If you complete/replace one screw at a time, it should hold everything together and be super easy. Pull both out at once and you will have some springs and pieces to fit back together. Oh, and if you do ever have this problem, I think the best way is to drill a hole next to the lower right hex bolt, from there you can access and remove the 8th hex bolt that is under the cap.

Cheers,

Rob

RC · 06-04-2018, 10:03 AM

Drilling a hole to get access to the 8th hex bolt, and then the cap suddenly popped loose.

The inner cap is surprisingly complex. One small hole has a little filter in it, next to it one has a ball bearing inside. The large black ring at the bottom is also some kind of vent. These all connect to an inner chamber than has a black gasket. And then the rotating unlock mechanism is in the center.

The carrier for the actual sliding lock. It got pent in the removal process. I will monitor it frequently to see if it seems to get weaker or comes loose over time.

Jay In Milpitas · 06-04-2018, 10:16 AM

Thank you for sharing your story, RC.

Sorry the problem happened, but these little situations can go wrong on any bike at any time.

You mentioned not speaking Bulgarian well? You were not riding in Oklahoma?

RC · 06-04-2018, 11:00 AM

When I contacted CSC they said no one has reported this problem before. Its nice to be a pioneer I guess. This forum has surely helped me out with a bunch of other issues, so its nice to contribute and give back.

Oklahoma?? No, Bulgaria! Are a lot of Bulgarians in Oklahoma?

sqwert · 06-04-2018, 01:37 PM

Thanks for the educational content. Rest assured, $40 for a locksmith is a lot cheaper than a messed up tank and cap, about $250USD plus shipping. You did good!

Jay In Milpitas · 06-04-2018, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RC

Oklahoma?? No, Bulgaria! Are a lot of Bulgarians in Oklahoma?

Was only meant as a joke, your location shows as Portland. In USA we have several cities named Portland.

06-02-2018, 04:19 PM	#1
RC Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: EurAsia Posts: 46	Breaking into the locked gas cap So I pulled into a gas station today, put my key in to the gas tank and hear a snap/click noise. The key didn't break, it looks fine, unworn, goes in and out smoothly. It also turns 90 degrees smoothly, with no tension at all, and therefor doesn't unlock the cap. Something in the lock mechanism has broken, maybe a spring. So I can't put anymore gas in, so I'm rather stranded mid-trip. I think I have enough gas that I can get to a city tomorrow where there might be a locksmith. I'm not sure if that would help or not, but its the best option for now. If the connection between the turnkey and the lock retraction is broke, then I don't see a locksmith or a screwdriver working. If that doesn't work, who has suggestions?? I already tried removing the 7 allen bolts in the ring, but to no avail- after a call to CSC I found there are actually 8, with the 8th being under the gas cap. The locking mechanism looks very robust, and too much prying might damage the tank. I'm also worried that if I do break into it, there will not be a seal to keep the tank pressurized. I don't know what effect this will have, but possibly the bike won't run at all, or not with any performance?? At any rate, even if I have to replace the whole cap with a new one, I first have to get into it to remove the 8th bolt. If I have to break stuff, I'm thinking to try and snap the hinge pin with a flathead and hammer. Any advice is welcomed!
	1

06-04-2018, 10:16 AM	#12
Jay In Milpitas Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Milpitas, CA. USA Posts: 775	Thank you for sharing your story, RC. Sorry the problem happened, but these little situations can go wrong on any bike at any time. You mentioned not speaking Bulgarian well? You were not riding in Oklahoma? __________________ Horse holder at Madame Orr's House.
	1

06-02-2018, 04:34 PM	#2
sqwert Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 382	Locksmiths have skills you never dreamed of. Seek advice from an expert.
	0

06-02-2018, 05:01 PM	#3
Hawk 229cc Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 214	could try tiny bit of supper glue at the end of the key to see if you can get it out other wise just pop it open should not be to hard then replace the cap an key
	0

06-02-2018, 06:05 PM	#4
ben2go Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 1,335	There's no pressure in the tank and there should be no pressure in the tank. If you have to break the cap off, it shouldn't hurt the seal or sealing surface of the tank. Duck tape the tank closed with a couple of pin holes in the tape to get home.
	0

06-03-2018, 01:29 PM	#8
sqwert Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 382	Tank is vented to reduce vacuum when fuel is pumped out. No pressure in tank. Vents usually open to atmosphere, but some picky government boondoglers (think Kalifornicators) with delusions of intelligence require a filter system. Vent is through a carbon filter that absorbs fuel vapors, which are then drawn out by engine vacuum while running, so carbon never needs replacing. That's pretty much how the rest of the world deals with fuel vapors, but tanks are generally not sealed and NEVER pressurized due to fire/explosion hazards. Anywho, you can drill the lock itself, pick out the pieces, small needle nose and/or ignition pliers let you pull out lots of pieces. Keep working at it until you free the lock mechanism and no damage to any important part. From a locksmith's perspective with an unknown lock, it's a cylinder type, like the key mechanism in a car door. I expect if very careful you can remove the lock and still latch the cap, the mechanisms are hooked together somehow, but still 2 mechanisms with different purposes. If you can get the lock out of the way a screwdriver will usually work the latch just fine. I only have experience with a few hundred other brands of locks so don't know for sure about the RX3 gas cap. Mine works fine. Let us know what you find out. CSC has replacement gas caps. RX3 runs fine with gas cap not sealed. Water gets in, fuel gets out.
	0

06-04-2018, 09:29 AM	#10
RC Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: EurAsia Posts: 46	Thanks for the help! It has been repaired and I'll be on the road again tomorrow. Since my bulgarian is, well, almost non-existent, I had some help in contacting 2 local locksmiths here in Plovdiv. One said he couldn't do it but recommended another guy. He came and at first I wasn't too confident, he just seemed to try to jimmy the lock with some thin metal tools under the cap. He was having no success so I told him to drill or break the cap, but don't damage the tank. He made some drill holes and eventually was able to get the thing free. I think it only came free because he kept fumbling with it until the screws on the bottom came loose and the lock wasn't secure anymore. In fact one scree fell inside the tank. Had to use a magnet to get it out. His assessment was that a screw came loose and caused the lock to not function, probably beyond the reach of the unlock lever/mechanism. He got it all back together and used loctite on the screws. Charge was about $40 USD, a bit high I thought, but cheaper than ordering a new tank cap and getting it shipped. I have never paid particular attention to tightness of the inner gas cap fitting. I just filled up the day before and didn't notice anything out of ordinary. I was on some really rough mountain roads and trails for most of that time, like had a wheel come off the ground several times kinda rough, so perhaps it just wiggled and vibrated itself loose. So, I recommend putting a screwdriver on those to make sure they are tight, or even add some loctite. If you complete/replace one screw at a time, it should hold everything together and be super easy. Pull both out at once and you will have some springs and pieces to fit back together. Oh, and if you do ever have this problem, I think the best way is to drill a hole next to the lower right hex bolt, from there you can access and remove the 8th hex bolt that is under the cap. Cheers, Rob
	1

06-04-2018, 10:03 AM	#11
RC Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: EurAsia Posts: 46	Drilling a hole to get access to the 8th hex bolt, and then the cap suddenly popped loose. The inner cap is surprisingly complex. One small hole has a little filter in it, next to it one has a ball bearing inside. The large black ring at the bottom is also some kind of vent. These all connect to an inner chamber than has a black gasket. And then the rotating unlock mechanism is in the center. The carrier for the actual sliding lock. It got pent in the removal process. I will monitor it frequently to see if it seems to get weaker or comes loose over time.
	3

06-04-2018, 11:00 AM	#13
RC Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: EurAsia Posts: 46	When I contacted CSC they said no one has reported this problem before. Its nice to be a pioneer I guess. This forum has surely helped me out with a bunch of other issues, so its nice to contribute and give back. Oklahoma?? No, Bulgaria! Are a lot of Bulgarians in Oklahoma?
	3

06-04-2018, 01:37 PM	#14
sqwert Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 382	Thanks for the educational content. Rest assured, $40 for a locksmith is a lot cheaper than a messed up tank and cap, about $250USD plus shipping. You did good!
	0