new starting issue

JKR · 01-23-2017, 11:27 AM

So its been my experience that every once in a while when starting my bike cold it will immediately die. It then will turn over a few times and fire up, good to go. The last couple of days its been a little different. Whether cold or not, I start the bike, it runs for a few seconds at idle, then idle drops and dies. Trying to start it again and it struggles, spits and sputters. Does this a few times then starts and runs normal. Like I said it will do this sporadically even when warm. Its been about 3000 miles since valve adjustment, and I have had issues with the dyeing coming to a stop resolved by adjusting the valves. Just seems to be a little different than that to me. Anyhoo, just throwing it out there to see if anyone might have an idea. Thx!!

madsocial · 01-23-2017, 12:52 PM

I think anyone would generally answer by saying checking everything and maybe rechecking the valves. I wish I could give you a more tech answer. but perhaps some of the other folks can, once they become available today. Good luck!

Inroads · 01-23-2017, 02:10 PM

I'm sure you know but gotta ask that you make sure you let it cycle thru

Before hitting the starter and also do not touch the throttle until it is running.

2LZ · 01-23-2017, 02:20 PM

It just seems with these, it's usually the same culprits. Valves or loose battery terminals.

Both of mine have been hard to "cold start" since the really cold whether hit. I'm not riding them due to the constant rain and I just fire them on weekends and let them warm. They'll crank quite a while, then sometimes fire, then die. Then I'll re-fire and it's all good. I'm just blaming it on the inactivity and freezing temps.

JKR · 01-23-2017, 05:59 PM

Yeah, I get the when it's cold thing. That happens to me too. However, it never did it after it was warm. Doesn't seem to matter if cold or warm. I will be going over connections on the bike. It would absolutely make sense to me, valid or not, that loose battery terminals could exhibit this behavior. I need to clean all my wire connections and treat with Dielectric grease, which has been mentioned to me on several occasions. Hopefully nothing too hard to figure out.

2LZ · 01-24-2017, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JKR

Yeah, I get the when it's cold thing. That happens to me too. However, it never did it after it was warm. Doesn't seem to matter if cold or warm. I will be going over connections on the bike. It would absolutely make sense to me, valid or not, that loose battery terminals could exhibit this behavior. I need to clean all my wire connections and treat with Dielectric grease, which has been mentioned to me on several occasions. Hopefully nothing too hard to figure out.

Odd thing is out of all the scads of bikes I've owned in my life, it seems these Rx3's and our Victory's would loosen battery terminals like none other....and they were the only injected bikes I've had that are ECM driven.

katflap · 01-25-2017, 01:16 PM

Mine will only stall a short time after starting if its getting down to freezing temperatures. Never does it when the engine has warmed up.

For me, it won't stall if you crack the throttle open a little bit before you hit the starter. Once running you can then release the throttle and it will remain idleing.

If you have difficulties re-starting, try opening up the the throttle fully before pressing the starter but be ready to shut the throttle down quickly once started as sometimes it will rev like a beast.

By doing this it enters into an Anti-flood condition at cranking speeds and shuts down the fuel injector pulse.

If all else fails, turn off the ignition, wait 15 secs, turn back on again and try again.

katflap · 01-25-2017, 02:05 PM

A slightly different stalling issue in the winter cold.

I have a road junction about 100-200 yards from my house. I set off straight away from starting, reaching about 20mph.
I get to the junction and stop. The bike will idle for 10-15 seconds and then stall.

The "fast idle" when cold , i think is way too short.

Normally to overcome this problem i dont let the revs drop, keeping them at around 2000 rpm until the way is clear and I can pull away.

I made some logs to see what was going on.

Though i didn't spot a cause for this happening I did notice that as the revs die away to nothing,
the battery volage drops quite significantly, much more than when i've monitored a stall when hot.

Also, something that 2LZ mentioned in another thread, is how slow the IACV was to react to the dropping rev count.

see below, at 555rpm the IACV has only moved a few steps from when at 1500rpm.

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BlackBike · 01-25-2017, 02:51 PM

interesting shurlock

, not getting much on this from mothership other than the normal checks which seem to have yielded no results by a couple members here. good that you are taking a look on the pchud view where it counts on an electronically controlled engine.

you also seem the be categorizing this issue as well,
1. cold idle stall after running
2. hot idle stall after running
3. cold idle stall immediately after startup

2LZ · 01-25-2017, 03:29 PM

Awesome work as always katflap!

I did notice something on both RX3's now that I'm just running them once a week waiting for the snow to thaw.

As you'd mentioned about cracking the throttle....it seems I'll crank them with a closed throttle (ice cold) and they won't want to start. Then I turn the throttle about a 1/4 turn and crank it again. Then release the throttle, hit the starter and then it will start. I figured that maybe it mapped the cracked throttle and reacted or something. Both bikes act the exact same way.

BlackBike · 01-27-2017, 03:11 AM

Is that iacv something you could remove to inspect/clean? Also could you swap a donor battery to see if it has any effect on the stall? I know your bat is showing good.

Something else I was thinking , do some bikes come withe duel fuel injectors? This way it doesn't rely on only one in the event of a missed pulse if that is the cause of the stall. Probably impractical for rx3 application. Just thinking aloud

katflap · 01-27-2017, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackBike

Is that iacv something you could remove to inspect/clean? Also could you swap a donor battery to see if it has any effect on the stall? I know your bat is showing good.

Something else I was thinking , do some bikes come withe duel fuel injectors? This way it doesn't rely on only one in the event of a missed pulse if that is the cause of the stall. Probably impractical for rx3 application. Just thinking aloud

Yes, the IACV can be cleaned though I think it is a delicate procedure, (I have it somewhere will try and find).

My description of the IACV steps graph was slightly inaccurate. The graph shows the "step" position that the Delphi ECU has requested and not the Actual "step" position that the IACV is at. Though normally this would be the same thing.

So if the IACV is malfunctioning it could be in a completely different "step" position.

I don't suspect a malfunction as it works perfectly at any other time.

The problem could be the ECU not requesting a big enough change in IACV steps, this will be down to the ECU mapping and could be changed with a map update.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I could try another battery though I think the low voltage as the idle drops down below idle speed it gets below the RPMs where the generator can offer any charge and the battery still trying to recover from cranking the bike at start, especially hard on batteries in cold weather.

I will try another battery when I get the chance and see if there is a difference.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not heard of a duel injection for the same cylinder though the Delphi ECU is capable of controlling 2 injectors for a twin.

I hope that the ECU would flag a fault if the injector missed a pulse
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, thanks BlackBike, all your comments are good food for thought

JKR · 01-27-2017, 01:43 PM

Thats my next step is to swap the battery. Been talking with Gerry at CSC the last couple days trouble shooting. It had been about 3000 miles since last valve check, so that was the first thing. Happy to say that the valve lash had not changed in 3000 miles. Still at .08mm where I set them. We checked for codes, none present, all connections and fuel lines look good. Its not that it wont start but it definitley has a hard time starting and staying at idle for more than a few tries. Just "feels" like a voltage thing to me and hopefully a new battery will fix. If after the swap and no change, I believe Gerry said we will be looking at replacing the O2 sensor next. Runs great, still riding. I know we'll get his figured out. Most likely if it gets over 45 degrees here it wont have the issue is what im thinkin...

01-23-2017, 11:27 AM	#1
JKR Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 23	new starting issue So its been my experience that every once in a while when starting my bike cold it will immediately die. It then will turn over a few times and fire up, good to go. The last couple of days its been a little different. Whether cold or not, I start the bike, it runs for a few seconds at idle, then idle drops and dies. Trying to start it again and it struggles, spits and sputters. Does this a few times then starts and runs normal. Like I said it will do this sporadically even when warm. Its been about 3000 miles since valve adjustment, and I have had issues with the dyeing coming to a stop resolved by adjusting the valves. Just seems to be a little different than that to me. Anyhoo, just throwing it out there to see if anyone might have an idea. Thx!!
	2

01-23-2017, 12:52 PM	#2
madsocial Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Maryland Posts: 213	I think anyone would generally answer by saying checking everything and maybe rechecking the valves. I wish I could give you a more tech answer. but perhaps some of the other folks can, once they become available today. Good luck! __________________ Cheers! Rania aka madsocial 2016 Zongshen RX3 (CSC Cyclone) Pay it Forward!
	0

01-23-2017, 02:20 PM	#4
2LZ Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Volcano, Ca Posts: 7,065	It just seems with these, it's usually the same culprits. Valves or loose battery terminals. Both of mine have been hard to "cold start" since the really cold whether hit. I'm not riding them due to the constant rain and I just fire them on weekends and let them warm. They'll crank quite a while, then sometimes fire, then die. Then I'll re-fire and it's all good. I'm just blaming it on the inactivity and freezing temps. __________________ "Light a fire for a man, and you heat him for a day. Light a man on fire, and you heat him for the rest of his life." 2007 Suzuki DRZ400S (SM convert) 2009 Q Link XP 200 1967 BSA B25 250cc Starfire 2022 Royal Enfield Interceptor 650 2023 Royal Enfield Scram 411 1948 Royal Enfield Model G 350
	0

01-25-2017, 02:51 PM	#9
BlackBike Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: George West, Texas Posts: 4,097	interesting shurlock, not getting much on this from mothership other than the normal checks which seem to have yielded no results by a couple members here. good that you are taking a look on the pchud view where it counts on an electronically controlled engine. you also seem the be categorizing this issue as well, 1. cold idle stall after running 2. hot idle stall after running 3. cold idle stall immediately after startup __________________ ***************************************** 2015 Bashan"Blaze" BS250GY-31 (DB-07K-250) GONE 2017 Suzuki V Strom 650 XT "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." ~Benjamin Franklin~
	1

01-25-2017, 03:29 PM	#10
2LZ Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Volcano, Ca Posts: 7,065	Awesome work as always katflap! I did notice something on both RX3's now that I'm just running them once a week waiting for the snow to thaw. As you'd mentioned about cracking the throttle....it seems I'll crank them with a closed throttle (ice cold) and they won't want to start. Then I turn the throttle about a 1/4 turn and crank it again. Then release the throttle, hit the starter and then it will start. I figured that maybe it mapped the cracked throttle and reacted or something. Both bikes act the exact same way. __________________ "Light a fire for a man, and you heat him for a day. Light a man on fire, and you heat him for the rest of his life." 2007 Suzuki DRZ400S (SM convert) 2009 Q Link XP 200 1967 BSA B25 250cc Starfire 2022 Royal Enfield Interceptor 650 2023 Royal Enfield Scram 411 1948 Royal Enfield Model G 350
	1

01-23-2017, 02:10 PM	#3
Inroads Join Date: May 2015 Location: Wimberley Texas Posts: 193	I'm sure you know but gotta ask that you make sure you let it cycle thru Before hitting the starter and also do not touch the throttle until it is running.
	0

01-23-2017, 05:59 PM	#5
JKR Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 23	Yeah, I get the when it's cold thing. That happens to me too. However, it never did it after it was warm. Doesn't seem to matter if cold or warm. I will be going over connections on the bike. It would absolutely make sense to me, valid or not, that loose battery terminals could exhibit this behavior. I need to clean all my wire connections and treat with Dielectric grease, which has been mentioned to me on several occasions. Hopefully nothing too hard to figure out.
	0

01-25-2017, 01:16 PM	#7
katflap Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: England Posts: 382	Mine will only stall a short time after starting if its getting down to freezing temperatures. Never does it when the engine has warmed up. For me, it won't stall if you crack the throttle open a little bit before you hit the starter. Once running you can then release the throttle and it will remain idleing. If you have difficulties re-starting, try opening up the the throttle fully before pressing the starter but be ready to shut the throttle down quickly once started as sometimes it will rev like a beast. By doing this it enters into an Anti-flood condition at cranking speeds and shuts down the fuel injector pulse. If all else fails, turn off the ignition, wait 15 secs, turn back on again and try again.
	1

01-25-2017, 02:05 PM	#8
katflap Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: England Posts: 382	A slightly different stalling issue in the winter cold. I have a road junction about 100-200 yards from my house. I set off straight away from starting, reaching about 20mph. I get to the junction and stop. The bike will idle for 10-15 seconds and then stall. The "fast idle" when cold , i think is way too short. Normally to overcome this problem i dont let the revs drop, keeping them at around 2000 rpm until the way is clear and I can pull away. I made some logs to see what was going on. Though i didn't spot a cause for this happening I did notice that as the revs die away to nothing, the battery volage drops quite significantly, much more than when i've monitored a stall when hot. Also, something that 2LZ mentioned in another thread, is how slow the IACV was to react to the dropping rev count. see below, at 555rpm the IACV has only moved a few steps from when at 1500rpm.
	1

01-27-2017, 03:11 AM	#11
BlackBike Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: George West, Texas Posts: 4,097	Is that iacv something you could remove to inspect/clean? Also could you swap a donor battery to see if it has any effect on the stall? I know your bat is showing good. Something else I was thinking , do some bikes come withe duel fuel injectors? This way it doesn't rely on only one in the event of a missed pulse if that is the cause of the stall. Probably impractical for rx3 application. Just thinking aloud __________________ ***************************************** 2015 Bashan"Blaze" BS250GY-31 (DB-07K-250) GONE 2017 Suzuki V Strom 650 XT "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." ~Benjamin Franklin~
	0

01-27-2017, 01:43 PM	#13
JKR Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 23	Thats my next step is to swap the battery. Been talking with Gerry at CSC the last couple days trouble shooting. It had been about 3000 miles since last valve check, so that was the first thing. Happy to say that the valve lash had not changed in 3000 miles. Still at .08mm where I set them. We checked for codes, none present, all connections and fuel lines look good. Its not that it wont start but it definitley has a hard time starting and staying at idle for more than a few tries. Just "feels" like a voltage thing to me and hopefully a new battery will fix. If after the swap and no change, I believe Gerry said we will be looking at replacing the O2 sensor next. Runs great, still riding. I know we'll get his figured out. Most likely if it gets over 45 degrees here it wont have the issue is what im thinkin...
	0