Gun control in Canada - Page 2

TurboT · 03-10-2010, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suprf1y

It's refreshing to see people disagree without it turning into a big fight, or name calling exhibition

Yes it is. I'm still waiting for it to happen though.

I promise not to call you a name for having a differing opinion.

TheRealWorld · 03-10-2010, 07:56 PM

TurboT

This is not a likely scenario, but this has happened. If you were visiting in one of the U.S. states where carrying a concealed gun is legal for a stable licensed person and that person was in a fast food restaurant you were having lunch and a crazy guy came in shooting people and was going to shoot you and your family, would you want the stable armed citizen to stop him with his gun or would you rather die along with your family?

If you live in the real world, this requires an answer, even though it might be painful.

boost_addict · 03-10-2010, 08:17 PM

I disagree with you turbot. I've lived around guns my entire life. I've hunted since I was old enough to shoot a gun, and I would never think about using a gun on a another person unless that person was endangering the lives of me or my family.

As long as humans eat meat there will be a need to kill animals for food. Whether you do it yourself or you pay for someone else to do your dirty work, an animal died so you could eat it.

I personaly feel any antihunter that eats meat is being quite hypocritical.

TurboT · 03-10-2010, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRealWorld

TurboT

This is not a likely scenario, but this has happened. If you were visiting in one of the U.S. states where carrying a concealed gun is legal for a stable licensed person and that person was in a fast food restaurant you were having lunch and a crazy guy came in shooting people and was going to shoot you and your family, would you want the stable armed citizen to stop him with his gun or would you rather die along with your family?

If you live in the real world, this requires an answer, even though it might be painful.

Hey mate, anyone with a sense of life preservation is going to answer this question the same way. Yes, we want to live and see the bad guy on the ground, and everyone else safe.
The bottom line is stuff like that doesn't go down that way. It becomes people shooting at each other on the street, taking the lives of innocents with them. I think you scenario is the romance aspect of carrying a gun. "I'm going to be the hero and save the day." In reality, everybody misses what they shoot at and end up killing me and my family by mistake.

In my utopia world, nobody has the gun to launch projectiles at unsuspecting, innocent people. The bad guy in your story has no gun, therefore there is no need for someone else to have the gun to shoot back at him with. The guns are not allowed to be made, if they are, the people making them and carrying them are either in jail or get the ride on the chair. The only reason you have a gun, is if you plan to use it to kill something. It's made to kill things. So if you don't plan to kill things, why have it?

I'll put it this way.. In Canada, you can walk into someone's open garage, and be charged with Break and Enter with Intent to Steal. You may have walked in there for any number of reasons, but at that point, you have to PROVE you walked in to NOT steal. You are already accused of intent to commit crime. Why is it then, that someone can own an instrument of killing (gun) and not be suspected of the intent to use it? Maybe it's a stretch argument, but it seems somewhat reachable to me.

The biggest issue is these products are back by big, powerful industries who lobby just as hard as tobacco and oil. There is too much money at stake to make them totally illegal. For this reason, they are still allowed to be sold and enable people to kill with them.

TurboT · 03-10-2010, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boost_addict

I disagree with you turbot. I've lived around guns my entire life. I've hunted since I was old enough to shoot a gun, and I would never think about using a gun on a another person unless that person was endangering the lives of me or my family.

As long as humans eat meat there will be a need to kill animals for food. Whether you do it yourself or you pay for someone else to do your dirty work, an animal died so you could eat it.

I personaly feel any antihunter that eats meat is being quite hypocritical.

Well, feel free to go hunt with your bare hands and see how you fare.

I say make it a fair fight, best animal wins. I don't think it would be fair for me to say, hunters can have guns, but nobody else when I personally think they should be outlawed for everyone.

It sickens me to think of how we treat animals we eventually eat. I can't deny my carnivore DNA, but the fact something died to feed me isn't lost in my mind, and for me personally, bothers me.

suprf1y · 03-10-2010, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRealWorld

TurboT

This is not a likely scenario, but this has happened. If you were visiting in one of the U.S. states where carrying a concealed gun is legal for a stable licensed person and that person was in a fast food restaurant you were having lunch and a crazy guy came in shooting people and was going to shoot you and your family, would you want the stable armed citizen to stop him with his gun or would you rather die along with your family?

If you live in the real world, this requires an answer, even though it might be painful.

That's an argument that's not rooted in the real world. It's like (it's actually a lot worse than) the parents who drive their kids to school for fear of them being abducted. Not only is such an occurrence unbelievably rare, but when it happens, it's usually at the hands of family.

Quote:

In Canada, you can walk into someone's open garage, and be charged with Break and Enter with Intent to Steal. You may have walked in there for any number of reasons, but at that point, you have to PROVE you walked in to NOT steal. You are already accused of intent to commit crime.

Not in this province you can't.

TurboT · 03-10-2010, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suprf1y

Quote:

In Canada, you can walk into someone's open garage, and be charged with Break and Enter with Intent to Steal. You may have walked in there for any number of reasons, but at that point, you have to PROVE you walked in to NOT steal. You are already accused of intent to commit crime.

Not in this province you can't.

Hmm... I'd have to look into that. I thought the excerpt I was taught was from the Criminal Code of Canada, it may have had a British Columbia 'reword.'

I will investigate, only for the purpose of not shooting my mouth off about laws without basis.

boost_addict · 03-10-2010, 08:43 PM

TurboT may I ask what you do for a living?

The reason I ask is because we all use tools to help us do our work, without tools people would still be living in the trees. It's tools that have enabled us to evolve the way we have. A gun is my tool that I use to gather my food. You asked me to go hunting without my tool. Well you go to work without your tools and let me know how you do.

TurboT · 03-10-2010, 08:49 PM

Okay, here it is, from the Criminal Code of Canada. I have bolded the key points. The key is here that the line of your garage door is considered the 'entrance of your dwelling' and the fact you left your garage door open by mistake does not invite anyone into your space, as it is a 'temporary opening.' So when someone breaks the plain of your garage door, they have now 'broken and entered' . As the line bolded below states, it is now on their onus to prove they did not break and enter into your space with the 'intent to commit an indictable offense' which would be stealing your stuff. Usually, the Criminal Code overides any provincial court rulings.

person enters as soon as any part of his body or any part of an instrument that he uses is within any thing that is being entered; and a person shall be deemed to have broken and entered if he obtained entrance by a threat or an artifice or by collusion with a person within, or he entered without lawful justification or excuse, the proof of which lies on him, by a permanent or temporary opening."
"... for the purposes of proceedings under this section, evidence that an accused broke and entered a place or attempted to break and enter a place is, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, proof that he broke and entered the place or attempted to do so, as the case may be, with intent to commit an indictable offence therein; or broke out of a place is, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, proof that he broke out after
committing an indictable offence therein, or
entering with intent to commit an indictable offence therein.

TurboT · 03-10-2010, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boost_addict

TurboT may I ask what you do for a living?

The reason I ask is because we all use tools to help us do our work, without tools people would still be living in the trees. It's tools that have enabled us to evolve the way we have. A gun is my tool that I use to gather my food. You asked me to go hunting without my tool. Well you go to work without your tools and let me know how you do.

Hey boost addict,

I'm a sales guy. My tools are my sunny personality and abilty to make people like me so they buy my product.

I see you live in Delta, it's a lovely spot with great grocery stores. I'm sure you don't need to go shoot animals to feed your family. I personally think you go shoot animals because you like to kill things with your gun.

Sorry mate, I couldn't resist.

I stand by my point that not many of us need to go hunting with guns to feed our families. Some of us may enjoy to do so, but I personally still feel the gun should be outlawed. I know most people who hunt are not criminals, but the human race is emotional, and often loses control of our clear headedness in the face of trauma, emotions or otherwise. Good people snap, and use their guns on other people. It happens too much. Good people probably snap and kill people with their guns more than good people cause accidents in their cars on their cell phones, yet we make laws to ban that.

TheRealWorld · 03-10-2010, 09:10 PM

I hunt, heat my house with wood, grow 80 percent of my food, and farm. I love animals! I am even a tree hugger! But I do hunt and I do it humanely. The last deer I harvested with my very accurate bow walked up and stood in front of me, I put an arrow through both lungs. The arrow hit the ground on the back side of the deer, and the deer just stood there. After a few seconds the deer walked about 20 feet stepped into a thicket, laid down, looked around put it's head down and died.

I found a deer once who had died at the mouths of coyotes and it had a very painful death, the one I killed got had some chest pain and decided to take a nap. Many hunters and animal handlers are a bit cruel, that is to bad, but not all hunting is bad.

TurboT · 03-10-2010, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRealWorld

I hunt, heat my house with wood, grow 80 percent of my food, and farm. I love animals! I am even a tree hugger! But I do hunt and I do it humanely. The last deer I harvested with my very accurate bow walked up and stood in front of me, I put an arrow through both lungs. The arrow hit the ground on the back side of the deer, and the deer just stood there. After a few seconds the deer walked about 20 feet stepped into a thicket, laid down, looked around put it's head down and died.

I found a deer once who had died at the mouths of coyotes and it had a very painful death, the one I killed got had some chest pain and decided to take a nap. Many hunters and animal handlers are a bit cruel, that is to bad, but not all hunting is bad.

Well chap.. I could really throw some things back at you about how Bambi decided to just have a nap, but I won't.

I feel bad, I hijacked your thread which was a question about the difference in gun control and I turned it into a personal rant about my belief in how guns are evil.

The truth is, Canada has tight controls, for the most part. You are 'supposed' to register all your firearms to a central database, and have a license to own them on top of that.

It's my understanding that hunting guns and shotguns are legal to be owned and used for hunting purposes, if registered. Handguns and other firearms like machine guns and grenade launchers are not allowed. That doesn't mean some don't have them though, they just aren't that 'prevalent.'

boost_addict · 03-10-2010, 09:18 PM

Your tools would also include your vehicle and phone/computer. without those you couldn't reach many of your clients or suppliers.

I do live in Delta and while I don't HAVE to hunt for food. I choose too because I do enjoy being out in the wilderness and I like being independant and challenged.
I don't enjoy the killing aspect of hunting, I feel sad when I do take an animals life. But I do enjoy eating a good steak, and if I don't kill the animal myself I'll have to pay someone else to do it. either way it's the same result.
You said you don't like they way our farmed animals are treated and niether do I. If you want an eye opener look into how a veal calf is raised or a goose raised for foie gras.
All the animals I hunt have led free lives, and I always make every attempt possible to end it's life as quickly and humanely as possible.
Just because you don't pull the trigger yourself doesn't mean you aren't responsible for the lives and deaths of the animals you eat.

katoranger · 03-10-2010, 10:32 PM

For your Utopia idea to work wouldn't all the World need to ban the manufacture of guns? I believe that China builds alot of AK47s and SKS rifles.

Most of the drugs in America come for another country illegally. If criminals want guns and ammo they will just bring it across the border illegally also. This is happening everyday.

I don't own any guns, but I have no problem with people who do. I don't care for hunting. Just not something I enjoy, but I do like to eat the critters.

The only thing I have shot were clay pigeons. Remington 12 guage. Also had the oppurtunity to shoot an AK47 too. That was fun. No lives endangered. Just clay and plastic.

I haven't really felt a need to carry a gun on me. I feel the aforementioned risk of a child being abducted to be about the same as a chance for me needing a gun.

phil · 03-10-2010, 10:57 PM

i tried to stay silent but ill just keep it short, as a tree hugging conservative (think about it) crimes involving guns rarely happen with legal guns, a gun cant be legal in a gun free zone. our founding fathers for our country realised that a unarmed population are called servants, so we have the second amendment, we can only hope that our current leadership remembers this fact

03-10-2010, 10:32 PM	#14
katoranger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Altamont, Kansas Posts: 15,103	For your Utopia idea to work wouldn't all the World need to ban the manufacture of guns? I believe that China builds alot of AK47s and SKS rifles. Most of the drugs in America come for another country illegally. If criminals want guns and ammo they will just bring it across the border illegally also. This is happening everyday. I don't own any guns, but I have no problem with people who do. I don't care for hunting. Just not something I enjoy, but I do like to eat the critters. The only thing I have shot were clay pigeons. Remington 12 guage. Also had the oppurtunity to shoot an AK47 too. That was fun. No lives endangered. Just clay and plastic. I haven't really felt a need to carry a gun on me. I feel the aforementioned risk of a child being abducted to be about the same as a chance for me needing a gun. __________________ You meet the nicest people on a Honda Clone.
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03-10-2010, 10:57 PM	#15
phil Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: wise va Posts: 636	i tried to stay silent but ill just keep it short, as a tree hugging conservative (think about it) crimes involving guns rarely happen with legal guns, a gun cant be legal in a gun free zone. our founding fathers for our country realised that a unarmed population are called servants, so we have the second amendment, we can only hope that our current leadership remembers this fact __________________ halls auto l coolster, modcycles, yanmar & zongshen, dealer fired roketa,lifan and jet moto and apollo quit me who's next
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03-10-2010, 07:56 PM	#2
TheRealWorld Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 817	TurboT This is not a likely scenario, but this has happened. If you were visiting in one of the U.S. states where carrying a concealed gun is legal for a stable licensed person and that person was in a fast food restaurant you were having lunch and a crazy guy came in shooting people and was going to shoot you and your family, would you want the stable armed citizen to stop him with his gun or would you rather die along with your family? If you live in the real world, this requires an answer, even though it might be painful.
	0

03-10-2010, 08:17 PM	#3
boost_addict Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Delta BC Posts: 74	I disagree with you turbot. I've lived around guns my entire life. I've hunted since I was old enough to shoot a gun, and I would never think about using a gun on a another person unless that person was endangering the lives of me or my family. As long as humans eat meat there will be a need to kill animals for food. Whether you do it yourself or you pay for someone else to do your dirty work, an animal died so you could eat it. I personaly feel any antihunter that eats meat is being quite hypocritical.
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03-10-2010, 08:43 PM	#8
boost_addict Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Delta BC Posts: 74	TurboT may I ask what you do for a living? The reason I ask is because we all use tools to help us do our work, without tools people would still be living in the trees. It's tools that have enabled us to evolve the way we have. A gun is my tool that I use to gather my food. You asked me to go hunting without my tool. Well you go to work without your tools and let me know how you do.
	0

03-10-2010, 08:49 PM	#9
TurboT Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Surrey, B.C., Canada Posts: 2,185	Okay, here it is, from the Criminal Code of Canada. I have bolded the key points. The key is here that the line of your garage door is considered the 'entrance of your dwelling' and the fact you left your garage door open by mistake does not invite anyone into your space, as it is a 'temporary opening.' So when someone breaks the plain of your garage door, they have now 'broken and entered' . As the line bolded below states, it is now on their onus to prove they did not break and enter into your space with the 'intent to commit an indictable offense' which would be stealing your stuff. Usually, the Criminal Code overides any provincial court rulings. person enters as soon as any part of his body or any part of an instrument that he uses is within any thing that is being entered; and a person shall be deemed to have broken and entered if he obtained entrance by a threat or an artifice or by collusion with a person within, or he entered without lawful justification or excuse, the proof of which lies on him, by a permanent or temporary opening." "... for the purposes of proceedings under this section, evidence that an accused broke and entered a place or attempted to break and enter a place is, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, proof that he broke and entered the place or attempted to do so, as the case may be, with intent to commit an indictable offence therein; or broke out of a place is, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, proof that he broke out after committing an indictable offence therein, or entering with intent to commit an indictable offence therein.
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03-10-2010, 09:10 PM	#11
TheRealWorld Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 817	I hunt, heat my house with wood, grow 80 percent of my food, and farm. I love animals! I am even a tree hugger! But I do hunt and I do it humanely. The last deer I harvested with my very accurate bow walked up and stood in front of me, I put an arrow through both lungs. The arrow hit the ground on the back side of the deer, and the deer just stood there. After a few seconds the deer walked about 20 feet stepped into a thicket, laid down, looked around put it's head down and died. I found a deer once who had died at the mouths of coyotes and it had a very painful death, the one I killed got had some chest pain and decided to take a nap. Many hunters and animal handlers are a bit cruel, that is to bad, but not all hunting is bad.
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03-10-2010, 09:18 PM	#13
boost_addict Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Delta BC Posts: 74	Your tools would also include your vehicle and phone/computer. without those you couldn't reach many of your clients or suppliers. I do live in Delta and while I don't HAVE to hunt for food. I choose too because I do enjoy being out in the wilderness and I like being independant and challenged. I don't enjoy the killing aspect of hunting, I feel sad when I do take an animals life. But I do enjoy eating a good steak, and if I don't kill the animal myself I'll have to pay someone else to do it. either way it's the same result. You said you don't like they way our farmed animals are treated and niether do I. If you want an eye opener look into how a veal calf is raised or a goose raised for foie gras. All the animals I hunt have led free lives, and I always make every attempt possible to end it's life as quickly and humanely as possible. Just because you don't pull the trigger yourself doesn't mean you aren't responsible for the lives and deaths of the animals you eat.
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