What is the top speed on your China Bike?

[Larlarte]

Originally Posted by sirmaxwell

I can't argue against the Rm-80. maybe gearing and other parts that came factory on the Rm are just better.
On a side note I've heard many people saying 2-strokes will be dead before long I guess mostly due to emissions--even the top of the line direct injection clean ones its like they have already pretty much done all they can to clean up emissions on those so as the new CARB and Euro emissions keep getting tougher plus many, not all but many companies have been getting away from making them partially or sompletely andaren't investing in new 2T tech. I don't think we will see them too much longer.
I used to love my 2 stroke mopeds and an old dirtbike my brother had and my hedge trimmer and chain saw.

and oops I meant to say b4 the 4stroke makes more torque per cycle and at the same RPM the 2T has twice as many cycles. Still I have seen people do all sorts of grom and grom clone wheelies, personally Im not very good at wheelies

I completely may agree with you.

[RedCrowRides]

For the question about Grom clone wheelies :


First off ,you will be amazed at how much these bikes pick up in performance once completely broken in at about 300 - 500 miles, over how they feel when brand new and under 50 miles on the clock.
Secondly, again it is amazing how well these bikes respond to aftermarket carbs and exhausts ,the stock carb is so lean and the stock pipe has a cat built in and is ultra restrictive that replacing them really wakes the bike up even more so than years past.
Some people do run a 14t front sprocket in order to add a little extra low end grunt for stunting but this will have a negative impact on top end speed if that is a concern,I run my stock 15t and I'm fine.
YouTube has plenty of Grom clone wheelie vids using stock motor ,with carbs and pipes only .,Amari drummer has a near bone stock Vader here :



Maybe one day i will actually use my GoPro 3 and make a video of me on mine, i figure since the battery has been in the charger for about six months since i bought the GoPro used off Ebay its prolly ready to use lmao.

[sirmaxwell]

Originally Posted by RedCrowRides

For the question about Grom clone wheelies :


First off ,you will be amazed at how much these bikes pick up in performance once completely broken in at about 300 - 500 miles, over how they feel when brand new and under 50 miles on the clock.
Secondly, again it is amazing how well these bikes respond to aftermarket carbs and exhausts ,the stock carb is so lean and the stock pipe has a cat built in and is ultra restrictive that replacing them really wakes the bike up even more so than years past.
Some people do run a 14t front sprocket in order to add a little extra low end grunt for stunting but this will have a negative impact on top end speed if that is a concern,I run my stock 15t and I'm fine.
YouTube has plenty of Grom clone wheelie vids using stock motor ,with carbs and pipes only .,Amari drummer has a near bone stock Vader here :



Maybe one day i will actually use my GoPro 3 and make a video of me on mine, i figure since the battery has been in the charger for about six months since i bought the GoPro used off Ebay its prolly ready to use lmao.

Dude I can't agree with you more RedCrowRides on how these bikes pick up on performance and smoothness with shifting and acceleration/decceleration after break-in!!! Mine is still not totally broken in but I can already feel it shifting and finding Neutral easier, plus it seems to have a little more and definitley smoother power that makes it almost a completely different bike Versus when I first got it off the delivery truck a few weeks ago. Mine Has about 80 miles on the clock and I think at between 60-75 miles I took it for a ride one day and noticed it had some more mid-range power and was feeling smoother on shifts and I was like NICE!!

I still have a ways to go on break-in, maybe another 100 miles before the first manufacturer reccomended oil change (which is supposed to be at 300KM = about 180Miles if I read their Chinglish correctly!) So I am hoping to unlock a little more power!!! My engine break-in I have done so far almost exactly to the manufacturer's specs of keeping it at 30MPH or below and varying the engine rpm by not letting it idle for longer than it takes to warm up and going up and down thru the gears and even if I leave it in 4th gear i try not to hold the throttle steady for more than 1 minute at a time tops but usually it's more like 30 seconds is a looong time for me to hold the throttle/rpm steady--I'm sure you can hold your RPM steady for a lot longer than I am and still be fine but IT IS RECCOMENEDED to "vary your engine rpm during break-in". I feel like my engine break-in and following the bike maker's guidelines is going very well so far since I have already noticed a marked perceiveable increase in power and smoothness.
Also I know there are countless different opinions on break-in procedure, mostly the main debate is whether to ride the bike hard--"like you stole it" during break-in which some people say gets you slightly more performance----OR ride it to the manufacturer's reccomendations the first 500 miles and keep it at 50KMH(50kmh=31MPH) or below during that time and change the oil before your first ride and then every 180 miles for at least the first 3 changes then you can lengthen the intervals to something like every couple thousand miles after your engine is broken in(I dont have the book in front of me to quote the BOOM manufacturer reccomended oil change intervals after break-in right now). My thoughts on this are follow the bike maker's guidelines if you want to make your bike to be as reliable as possible for as long as possible because EVERY SINGLE major Japanese CHinese and German motorcycle manufacturer reccomends the same thing for the first 500-couple thousand miles which is to not go above about 50-60% of the bike's RPM--counting the redline as 100% so if the Vader for example redlines at 8300RPM, then don't take it above about 4000-5000RPM during break-in (I also don't have the exact manufacturer reccomendation for break-in length for the BOOM VADER in front of me but I THINK it's something like 600-1600miles) A good question is WHY DO ALL THE BIG BIKE MAKERS RECCOMEND VERY SIMILAR, NEARLY IDENTICAL BREAK_IN PROCEDURES? The answer is simply they warranty their bikes and don't want customers coming back in the first thousand miles with a broken bike that runs wonky because the rider wrung it's neck every single ride from brand new --which FOR EXAMPLE can cause the brand new valves/valve seats/springs/shim to not seat properly in it/s seat at the head, which lets improper amounts of air by that valve and ruins the bike's starting,idling and performance characteristics---AND THEN the bike maker would have to dig into their pockets and pay to fix all these bikes that were abused which causes the bike maker to lose money and therefore profits blah blah blah. The big 4 Japanese companies use very good materials and have very tight clearances and very low tolerances so although that does make their bikes run better and be high performance and all that, it also means if there is a very tight valve clearance for the bike to perform so well--if the valve doesn't seat right and messes with the valve spring which causes the valve to be in the wrong place entireley against where it was designed to be even a slight distance could mean hitting the piston and scoring the piston, bending the valve and the whole valve assembly--heck maybe even throwing the rocker arms and camshaft out of whack in an extreme case--then you need a new valve/valve stem/valve spring/rocker arm/cam shaft and maybe a new timing chain or timing chain tensioner or maybe just fix the timing by adjusting it...
Anyways to get back from my rant of what might be an extreme case, the fact of the matter is the bike maker says take it easy the first 500-1500 miles (give or take depending on your specific bike) so that all the new surfaces can seat and mate and polish each other properly. If one of these moving parts that is very close to another part is going to hit something and cause a problem, then it is most likely to happen when the bike is brand new, when the surfaces havent mated, and polished each other to the very tiny and exact measurements that ARE VERY SLIGHTLY different on each diffeent VIN number of the same exact bike. When the bike is new and you ride it thermal expansion happens and the parts aren't worn at all so the parts are as close to each other as they ever will be (until something fails/breaks/warps and ends up where it shouldnt be) and that's why to take it easy on a new bike during break-in.

SO these companies don't want you to break your bike, because then they have to pay to fix it under warranty, which is why they have break-in procedure--It is also important to note the bike maker says don't exceed (in the case of my 2018 BOOM GEN 1 VADER) 50KMh (OR 30MPH) during break-in and vary the RPM, BUT they also don't want you to crawl along at only 10MPH or less the entire time!! A Very SOFT break-in can also be bad for your bike, especially if you only ride it at 10MPH the first 1000 miles then immediately start riding it 100+MPH--the bike will maybe not be ready since the parts were not pushed hard enough to fully mate and polish each other during the VERY SOFT break-in and therefore things like thermal expansion might happen at such a large scale in this case after you start riding 100MPH that the moving parts MIGHT end up hitting each other and cause some sort of catastrophic failure!!

Another reason to take it reasonably slow during break-in is that if there is a defect or damage on part of your motorcycle like say a damaged but not broken wheel bearing or rear wheel hub if it's going to break (before it wears out an breaks 10,000 or 100,000 miles down the road or however long the part is SUPPOSED to last) then it's probably going ot break right away or soon after you start riding the brand new bike during the first few hundred or couple thousand miles--AND if it's something like a hub or wheel bearing that COULD cause your rear wheel to lock up, THEN it would be SOOOO MUCH BETTER if you are only going 30 Miles Per Hour and following the Manufacturer's Break-In Versus the "Ride It Like You Stole It" mantra going 100MPH.

Anyways, sorry to rant--I agree with the wise RedCrowRides, as usual, in the fact that these bikes get a lot better starting a good ways into your engine break-in and they continue to perform better and smoother until the engine is fully broken in.
I hope the break-in helps with your WHEELIES!!! Ride Safe and have fun!!!

One last thing to note is the stock Vader is very, very similar to both the SSR Razkull and in some ways the Honda Grom--both in looks, parts, and even performance. Heck the SSR Razkull even shares the same PZ20 carb with the Boom Vader, for at least some years, the ONLY difference with the carb being is that the SSR dealer is more likely than the online Boom Vader dealer to properly jet your carb and do other PDI stuff like change out the shipping oil for you, setup the chain to the correct slack, make sure the chain tensioner and wheel alignment is good, etc. SO..IF you do these adjustments to your Vader yourself and maybe even get a new carb/jets/intake/exhaust and pull up to a bone stock Razkull or Grom, then don't be surprised if you can keep up with the more expensive bikes or even pass them!!!

[ChopperCharles]

My SSR Buccaneer 250i has a top speed of 88mph with a smaller (80 profile) rear tire This is equivalent to 2 more teeth on the rear sprocket. Top speed was attained on a cool night, downhill, in a tuck. Speedo is off 6.15%, so that's 82.5 mph actual.

It cruises mid to upper 70s easily on the highway with this setup.

Also note I'm 250 lbs, so a lighter rider will have an even better experience with this bike.

Charles.

[sirmaxwell]

Originally Posted by ChopperCharles

My SSR Buccaneer 250i has a top speed of 88mph with a smaller (80 profile) rear tire This is equivalent to 2 more teeth on the rear sprocket. Top speed was attained on a cool night, downhill, in a tuck. Speedo is off 6.15%, so that's 82.5 mph actual.

It cruises mid to upper 70s easily on the highway with this setup.

Also note I'm 250 lbs, so a lighter rider will have an even better experience with this bike.

Charles.

I like the Bucaneer and I wanted to get it but I also didnt want to dip into my fairly modest savings that much. That's a nice bike and a good top speed. I;m not sure I want to go too fast on a motorcycle although the more experience I have the better I'm able to shift and control it and the faster I'm willing to try going--at least on flat straights!

On a side note I just got back to Connecticut from visiting Daytona Beach Florida and the roads there are so much nicer, smoother and without potholes, and there are mostly long straight strips everywhere that I feel like it's an entirely different game for how fast I would want to ride my motorcycle a lot of the time down there vs up here. I think I would feel fine hitting 90 mph around town when there isnt traffic in Florida whereas in CT many many towns I wouldnt like to go much past 60 although Im sure there are a good amount of spots in CT I could hit the same speeds and feel very comfortable my point is those spots are everywhere in FL and there are even reflectors all over the roads to help see the lanes on a dark night. I found it very easy to abuse my rental car, when I was in a hurry and there wasn't traffic blocking me I was continuosly racing it to speeds I would have trouble comfortably, safely and easily maintaining for as long on many of the winding bumpy town roads and even the winding highways in CT where I live--On my way to the airport I had a 52 mile--90 minute drive to Orlando International Airport and I was just pushing it from 60-90 on mostly 2-3 lane each direction town roads and I flew up on a county sheriff when I was doing 90 in a 45 or 50mph zone but very luckily I noticed he was a cop just as I was 50-100 feet away and about to fly past him!! oops..so I hit the brakes and the cruise control and lost a lot of time I had made up previously but in the end even getting stuck in some of the only hard rain I saw all week and stuck in slow traffic half the drive plus another 7 miles driving at the speed limit with the cop and a 10 minute gas n pit stop and some more lights and medium traffic the last dozen miles near the airport I still made it the 52 miles in 90 minutes.It was really awesome down there with high temps ranging from about 80-90 degrees with awesome breezes all day and overnight lows from the mid 60s to mid 70's..I visited the Daytona International Speedway today, where they have car and motorcycle races with 30-31 degree banks on much of the tri-oval track.I wasn't one to watch races before, although I like anything with an engine and i like and respect speed, but now i would love to take an RV and a pitbike into the middle of the Daytona race track and tailgate while watching the cars or bikes fly by!.There is a lot of fun stuff to do in Daytona and Florida in general and as long as your a/c in your car and house is working well, then it's good times in my book. I wish I had a motorcycle to ride while I was down there--next time I will! I'm seriously considering moving there

[RedCrowRides]

Orlando and Tampa both have huge Grom scenes, Youtubers Dankwheelie and Photogromer are very involved with the Grom stunt scene in Tampa , while Blockhead out of Orlando has a Harley and Grom related channel on Youtube .Jacksonville hosts " Grom Day" sponsored by TST Industries as well that is a HUGE event each year and they also have a very active Grom crew in JAX.


If you love Groms and Grom clones, check their channels out on YouTube ,especially Photogromers .Florida has great riding weather and we are lucky to have some very good motovloggers as well on YouTube representing us . Fooligan is another Grom content channel , based out of the midwest as is Attention Deficit with great stuff.

[cbrfxr67]

So far my pr is 63 according to speedo,...

[ChopperCharles]

The Buccaneer feels much looser and more powerful at 2500 miles than it did when I first bought it. Dunno if it's all the way broken in now, but it feels that way. I'm a happy man.

Charles.

[scoot newb]

I also had a problem with crimping. Since the carb that shipped on my bike was defective I had to remove it and the airbox then replace it with an aftermarket manifold and carb. At that point I noticed the intake hose on the airbox was almost completely pinched off by the coil wire.

Any bike made from the big 4 and in good condition would be much better than these clones. But a Ninja 250 is kind of, ah, not as good of a beginner bike as you may think.

[sirmaxwell]

Originally Posted by scoot newb

I also had a problem with crimping. Since the carb that shipped on my bike was defective I had to remove it and the airbox then replace it with an aftermarket manifold and carb. At that point I noticed the intake hose on the airbox was almost completely pinched off by the coil wire.

Any bike made from the big 4 and in good condition would be much better than these clones. But a Ninja 250 is kind of, ah, not as good of a beginner bike as you may think.

Wow it sounds like you had a ton wrong/ defective on yours. So far mine is alright mostly--I am maybe starting to have the shifting issue you mentioned because a couple times after a full stop I go into first then quickly try to go to second as usual and either the gear indicator goes from first to nothing indicated and I have to hit the shifter again to get the indicator to come up and at least once the bike (I think the gearbox specifically though not sure) then made a sound like something was rubbing the tire which nothing appeared to be hitting any tire and the noise would go away after letting the bike cool and riding again---OR from a stop I put it in first brap, shift to second brap, then shift to third and again the indicator either goes from second to nothing or goes to third briefly then back to second.But this has only happened a couple times and im hoping that my new adjsutable clutch lever coming tomorrow or a clutch cable adjustment MIGHT help me out. not too sure

I felt like my bike was also really jerky when I first got it--like winding up speed/rpms in 2nd gear it sometimes lurched as the rpm climbed even though I was holding throttle steady and similar would happen as I deccelerated---but as it breaks in it seems like I have way less of that--at first I thought it was just carb related--now Im not sure if it was the carb breaking in/malfunction, the engine power train or drive train/transmission break in getting smoother or if it was a syptom of my fueling issues--and Im halfway sure I could track down the answer without advanced tools, but Im definitley too lazy to do that.!

I have a good amount of car knowledge, or at least I used to, as I don't remember how much of it I've forgotten!!-- 15+ years ago i started my work at Mieneke for 2 years doing everything from oil changes and brakes to engine and transmission replacements and swaps--Although I had most of the Automobile Series tests passed handily under my belt, I had very little experience, so usually on almost all the harder, larger jobs I would be assisting or overseen to some degree by a Master Technician who was at very least a Master in the A series tests but often the main few guys I worked with either had tests or Master status from other series and all but one of them had decades more experience than me working on cars at the time--anyways my point is that my motorcycle knowledge is way less than my decent car knowledge, I only recently started riding 2 wheelers on the regular, so I really don't know too much and I haven't even looked up anything about the Ninja 250 or seen it up close in person or never even watched a Youtube about any Ninjas. I have seen posters of like the Ninja H2R and growing up as a kid and teen I always liked the Ninjas I saw parked, usually in cities and when I was impressionable thought the riders were instantly cooler by stepping over the bike and twisting that throttle, shifting those gears,disappearing rapidly, and occasionally popping a wheelie lol.

Why do you think a Ninja 250 isn't a good starter bike? just wondering, since like I said I pretty much know jack. What would be a good starter bike for someone like me (who rode under 20k miles on scooters and recently only a few hundred combined miles on dirtbikes and this new Vader--plus tiny amounts of mostly dirtbike riding years ago) to get after this Vader or in addition to the Vader?

[scoot newb]

Originally Posted by sirmaxwell

Wow it sounds like you had a ton wrong/ defective on yours. So far mine is alright mostly--I am maybe starting to have the shifting issue you mentioned because a couple times after a full stop I go into first then quickly try to go to second as usual and either the gear indicator goes from first to nothing indicated and I have to hit the shifter again to get the indicator to come up and at least once the bike (I think the gearbox specifically though not sure) then made a sound like something was rubbing the tire which nothing appeared to be hitting any tire and the noise would go away after letting the bike cool and riding again---OR from a stop I put it in first brap, shift to second brap, then shift to third and again the indicator either goes from second to nothing or goes to third briefly then back to second.But this has only happened a couple times and im hoping that my new adjsutable clutch lever coming tomorrow or a clutch cable adjustment MIGHT help me out. not too sure

I felt like my bike was also really jerky when I first got it--like winding up speed/rpms in 2nd gear it sometimes lurched as the rpm climbed even though I was holding throttle steady and similar would happen as I deccelerated---but as it breaks in it seems like I have way less of that--at first I thought it was just carb related--now Im not sure if it was the carb breaking in/malfunction, the engine power train or drive train/transmission break in getting smoother or if it was a syptom of my fueling issues--and Im halfway sure I could track down the answer without advanced tools, but Im definitley too lazy to do that.!

I have a good amount of car knowledge, or at least I used to, as I don't remember how much of it I've forgotten!!-- 15+ years ago i started my work at Mieneke for 2 years doing everything from oil changes and brakes to engine and transmission replacements and swaps--Although I had most of the Automobile Series tests passed handily under my belt, I had very little experience, so usually on almost all the harder, larger jobs I would be assisting or overseen to some degree by a Master Technician who was at very least a Master in the A series tests but often the main few guys I worked with either had tests or Master status from other series and all but one of them had decades more experience than me working on cars at the time--anyways my point is that my motorcycle knowledge is way less than my decent car knowledge, I only recently started riding 2 wheelers on the regular, so I really don't know too much and I haven't even looked up anything about the Ninja 250 or seen it up close in person or never even watched a Youtube about any Ninjas. I have seen posters of like the Ninja H2R and growing up as a kid and teen I always liked the Ninjas I saw parked, usually in cities and when I was impressionable thought the riders were instantly cooler by stepping over the bike and twisting that throttle, shifting those gears,disappearing rapidly, and occasionally popping a wheelie lol.

Why do you think a Ninja 250 isn't a good starter bike? just wondering, since like I said I pretty much know jack. What would be a good starter bike for someone like me (who rode under 20k miles on scooters and recently only a few hundred combined miles on dirtbikes and this new Vader--plus tiny amounts of mostly dirtbike riding years ago) to get after this Vader or in addition to the Vader?

The problem with shifting is most likely not related to the clutch lever cable. On the FB clone groups others talk about these shifting problems being related to the gear box itself. Really, these are truly garbage. Especially the drive train.

A good beginner bike for someone who has driven dirt bikes and scooters on the street; A Yamaha MT-07

[ChopperCharles]

Originally Posted by scoot newb

Any bike made from the big 4 and in good condition would be much better than these clones. But a Ninja 250 is kind of, ah, not as good of a beginner bike as you may think.

It's not bad. It's far better than say a CBR600RR, which is what so many dealers sell as a "beginner" bike. But I hear you. I think a TW200 is the perfect beginner bike, from a purely "teach someone how to ride" standpoint. Hard to stall, nice and low, not too heavy, easy to pick up, dirt cheap, and not destroyable. BUT... the ninja is a better all-around motorcycle. It won't be outgrown quickly. Hell, even after owning 20 motorcycles, I could live with a 250 ninja as my only bike. It's just extremely versatile.

I'm also actually not a superfan of my Buccaneer 250 as a beginner bike. I'm a huge fan of it as a motorcycle, but it's got a pretty tall seat height (31"), the levers are made out of cheese, and replacement levers take a week to 10 days to get from SSR. Between me riding off-road and teaching people to ride on the bike, it had probably been crashed 15 times. Smashed up the headlight trim a bit, bent the handlebars, even bent a lever or two. But never did all that crashing that made the bike unrideable.

My friend Carly bought a buccaneer, and has dropped it three times already. At a standstill. Each time resulting in not being able to ride for a week because she broke a lever.

Charles.

[sirmaxwell]

Originally Posted by ChopperCharles

It's not bad. It's far better than say a CBR600RR, which is what so many dealers sell as a "beginner" bike. But I hear you. I think a TW200 is the perfect beginner bike, from a purely "teach someone how to ride" standpoint. Hard to stall, nice and low, not too heavy, easy to pick up, dirt cheap, and not destroyable. BUT... the ninja is a better all-around motorcycle. It won't be outgrown quickly. Hell, even after owning 20 motorcycles, I could live with a 250 ninja as my only bike. It's just extremely versatile.

I'm also actually not a superfan of my Buccaneer 250 as a beginner bike. I'm a huge fan of it as a motorcycle, but it's got a pretty tall seat height (31"), the levers are made out of cheese, and replacement levers take a week to 10 days to get from SSR. Between me riding off-road and teaching people to ride on the bike, it had probably been crashed 15 times. Smashed up the headlight trim a bit, bent the handlebars, even bent a lever or two. But never did all that crashing that made the bike unrideable.

My friend Carly bought a buccaneer, and has dropped it three times already. At a standstill. Each time resulting in not being able to ride for a week because she broke a lever.

Charles.

I just ordered these adjustable levers that LOOK nice, at least look nice to me as a motorcycle newcomer. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

My bike fell over just once due to the kickstand on my Vader that shifts everytime you put it on the kickstand on flat ground and it will fall everytime if you don't wiggle/push it a little to make the kickstand shift to its final resting place while you are still holding it steady. Luckily I havent crashed yet, hopefully I did all my crashing (twice) for learning on my scooter last year. I broke the Clutch hand lever off at about the halfway point and I have rode at least 50 miles or so since that happened---I just recently have had a little funny business happening with my shifting/gearbox and I am really hoping I didn't mess anything up in the gears because I think it is harder to pull my clutch all the way in with half a lever, which means I probably havent been pulling it in all the way every time since it broke. These bikes will shift without using the clutch just like a semi-auto or "slipper-clutch" or whatever, but I have heard it puts excessive wear on some of the gearbox, make it fail sooner

Im glad your bike still works after all the crashing!

I don't feel like 31" is a high seat height since 26" is the bare minimum height to be street legal--in Connecticut anyhow. I'm probably 6' to 6'1" tops in a new pair of cross trainer sneakers, but without shoes I'm like 5'10" to 5'11" which is about average for an American male last time I checked--and I think m y Vader is 30" seat height, which is fine for me to get on and off, the lower the easier to mount it I suppose. It actually feels maybe a tad small for my legs as I ride, but it might partly feel small because the pegs/foot pedal and lever aren't placed forward and may be are even slightly sporty in their placement--I just make sure to bend my knee on the leg i throw over the seat when I get on and off to kind of get more clearance between my shoe and parts of the bke such as the rear turn signals, which look very easy to break with an unintentional slow "kick".

[sirmaxwell]

Originally Posted by ChopperCharles

It's not bad. It's far better than say a CBR600RR, which is what so many dealers sell as a "beginner" bike. But I hear you. I think a TW200 is the perfect beginner bike, from a purely "teach someone how to ride" standpoint. Hard to stall, nice and low, not too heavy, easy to pick up, dirt cheap, and not destroyable.



Charles.

I just looked up the TW200 and it definitley looks fun to me! There are so many great things about motorcycles, including the plethora of different body and engine styles, different tire styles, different purposes bikes are made for. It also isnt too hard to change tires/wheels and maybe the shocks on a road bike to do some light trail driving at least. Plus motorcycles, at face value, are cheaper to buy than cars and I hope to own many very diverse motorcycles over the coming years. It's very funny (at least to me) to note that the owner's manual for my Vader reads that it was made for street riding or riding in fields also. I mean sure if you take it slow on very light and smoother off-roading maybe you won't ruin it or wipe out on the lightweight shocks and non-grippy stock tires--but to think even for a second it would be a good idea to take the stock Vader in any sort of bumpy and off-road environment, even a mild trail, is a bad idea and comical. I'm pretty sure the Vader would break and maybe crash quite quickly in a proper off road ride

[ChopperCharles]

Yes well my friend who keeps dropping the bike is a short girl. Plus let’s be honest, a nice low seat height is a LOT easier to recover from a boneheaded low speed maneuver, especially for a new motorcyclist.

Charles.