Toughest frame/suspension/seat for fat dues

roadKill · 03-16-2021, 02:06 AM

Hello! I'm a longtime listener, first time caller. You have a great forum here!

I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on a new china 250 enduro. I have been looking at the $1500-$2000 bikes on several sites and they all look the same. As the title implies, my primary concern is getting a bike that is big and tough. I'm 6'1" 260, and looking for a bike that that likes being ridden hard by a fat dude. A tall seat (35-36") and 21"/18" wheels are also a must.

I have some experience with chinese bikes from owning a couple large "touring" scooters a decade or so ago. Unfortunately the suspension was one of the (many) weak points on these. I'm a pretty good wrench and feel like I know what I'm getting into with the repairs/tuning/mods/fab etc... but looking for the sturdiest base to start from.

My short list at the moment is Hawk, Rocketa DB08, and BMS 250 CRP. I have found quite a bit of info on the Hawk, but less on the BMS, and almost nothing on the Rocketa. From what I piece together, the BMS has the best fit and finish, but that is not necessarily what I'm going for. Likewise, I understand CSC makes a great bike, but a premium turn-key experience is not my primary consideration. I need tough.

The Hawk is appealing as it has the highest advertised seat height I've seen. The EFI would also be a nice touch as I live at about 6,000' elevation and tuning a carb for everywhere I may ride becomes a full-time job. If the consensus is "They're all the same", I will probably buy the Hawk. If anyone has experience with some others to make a recommendation for better frame and suspension, I'd love to hear it. Thanks!

Megadan · 03-16-2021, 02:19 AM

The Standard Hawk I can speak for. I weigh basically what you weigh, and I know how to make a standard Hawk work. The DLX, Brozz, TT250, and BMS all have USD forks, which to date nobody has delved into as I have with the spaghetti thin standard Hawk forks in order to figure out any sort of spring info in order to find something off the shelf from the aftermarket that might work, or even the basic length and diameter info to at least have custom springs made. I do know that, unlike the standard Hawk, which has stupidly long dual rate springs with a very high secondary rate, so just doing preload spacers works even for big guys, I have heard others state that the USD fork springs are a bit on the light side, so even with preload adjustments they don't work well for those on the heavy end, but I can't speak from any personal experience.

Out back most of the bikes are more or less the same non-link shock mount, with there being some variations in length, but otherwise utilizing similar spring weights, so at least in that aspect you would be covered.

roadKill · 03-16-2021, 03:33 PM

Thanks Megadan, that's some good info. I have not considered the older Hawks with the conventional forks, but you might make me think about it. I see they are still available on ebay, probably elsewhere too if I look harder. Do you have any issues with your rear suspension bottoming out? How has your seat held up?

idle_purr · 03-16-2021, 04:16 PM

Welcome roadKill,

On the Bashan side of town, the MotoMax seems to be most sturdy and has the beefiest frame. It is set up more for the road but strip her down naked and she will be like the rest. I would suggest a tire upgrade to something more 50/50 though.

Here is the video of the Brozz taking some hate.

tknj99 · 03-16-2021, 05:15 PM

That video combined with the torture test video of a Hawk and collective input from this community convinced me beyond all doubt that a Chinese bike would last as long as i want it to

DohcBikes · 03-16-2021, 05:55 PM

I am 6'2" and just got a TBR7. Its really high. I just barely sit flat footed with the shock adjustment in the middle.

Chinese USD forks look neat but lack function and tech. They are also usually very heavy. Conventional chinese forks have come a LONG way and are on par with japanese forks when correctly tuned.

Chinese USD forks are for looks. They do not perform as well as a correctly tuned set of chinese conventional forks. They will leak within a year and most of them arent worth rebuilding.

tknj99 · 03-16-2021, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DohcBikes

I am 6'2" and just got a TBR7. Its really high. I just barely sit flat footed with the shock adjustment in the middle.

Chinese USD forks look neat but lack function and tech. They are also usually very heavy. Conventional chinese forks have come a LONG way and are on par with japanese forks when correctly tuned.

Chinese USD forks are for looks. They do not perform as well as a correctly tuned set of chinese conventional forks. They will leak within a year and most of them arent worth rebuilding.

My USD forks behaved much better when i changed the oil to 15W.. But leak within a year? Say it aint so please

DohcBikes · 03-16-2021, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tknj99

My USD forks behaved much better when i changed the oil to 15W.. But leak within a year? Say it aint so please

Just changing to a good fork oil and the right capacity will make a huge difference in any china fork.

Go outside, feel your stanchions. If they are wet they are already leaking. The problem is that with USD forks it can all leak out before you notice much.

Study the rebuild.procedure for your forks, if there is one. When they do start leaking, and yes they will, put japanese bushings and seals in them.

High quality usd forks have inherent benefits such as.lighter weight, sprung and unsprung, more rigidity which means more consistency as well. Also they have less leveraged contact so there is less friction and therefore also less "sticktion". *sp?*

However as I mentioned before, a lot of chinese usd forks are not built well. They are generall very heavy and not valved for any specific application.

I know nothing about the Brozz forks specifically. For all I know they are good forks.

tknj99 · 03-16-2021, 07:33 PM

Thanks for that info and heads up.. So far so good, no leaks but will keep an eye on things as usual and look into the rebuild whenever that time comes

roadKill · 03-16-2021, 09:29 PM

Thanks for sharing that idle-purr, that's a great video! I asked about frame strength and that's about as direct of an answer as you can get. I have read a bit about the brozz and it sounds like a great bike. Unfortunately the seat height and wheel size keeps it off my short list.

roadKill · 03-17-2021, 01:32 PM

The discussion on conventional forks being superior to inverted surprised me. I would have fallen for it and assumed the inverted shocks were an upgrade feature. But I follow the explanations and will trust the experience here. This has me thinking the Rocketa DB41 might be a good choice for me. It appears to to be a Bashan produced bike with big wheels, tall seat, and conventional forks.

https://www.roketa.com/product/produ...=0&proID=59831

Does anyone see anything they don't like about it? The only thing I don't like is the price is in range with the Hawk with EFI, and this doesn't have EFI. Does anyone have experience with the Hawk EFI to know how good that system is?

DohcBikes · 03-17-2021, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadKill

The discussion on conventional forks being superior to inverted surprised me. I would have fallen for it and assumed the inverted shocks were an upgrade feature. But I follow the explanations and will trust the experience here. This has me thinking the Rocketa DB41 might be a good choice for me. It appears to to be a Bashan produced bike with big wheels, tall seat, and conventional forks.

https://www.roketa.com/product/produ...=0&proID=59831

Does anyone see anything they don't like about it? The only thing I don't like is the price is in range with the Hawk with EFI, and this doesn't have EFI. Does anyone have experience with the Hawk EFI to know how good that system is?

It's almost exactly like a new Hawk or TBR7. I can recommend a TBR7 without a doubt. Basically comes down to what size wheels and what kind of tires you want it to come with.

roadKill · 03-17-2021, 06:32 PM

The TBR7 looks like a total steal! I wish I wasn't hung up on the taller wheels ...

ChillRider · 03-19-2021, 05:14 AM

Now, these Chinabikes can accommodatie a fat dude with the proper suspension and settings. If we're talking about fat dudes/duos however, then maybe a large cruiser or bagger would be a better option. Gotta keep that load:bike weight ratio as low as possible

N.B.: the guy in the pic (powerlifter Kyriakos Grizzly) definitively counts as two fat dudes all by himself. Most bikes probably can't handle him alone, let alone him + a passenger (esp. one in his own weight league, ~200 kg)

roadKill · 03-26-2021, 04:03 AM

I kept going back and forth between the Hawk and various Bashan products to the point I was ready to go to the local honda dealer and let them suck out my blood. It's less than ideal to make a decision on products you can't personally inspect before buying, but I'm sure I am preaching to the choir here. Anywho, I got sick of overthinking this and ordered the standard Hawk. $1371 from powersportsmax with discounts for military (retired) and paying by cashier's check. Waiting for my bank to mail the check will probably slow things down a few days, but I'm not in a hurry.

Thanks everyone for all the advice and I will let you know how it goes once it arrives.

03-16-2021, 02:06 AM	#1
roadKill Join Date: Mar 2021 Posts: 20	Toughest frame/suspension/seat for fat dues Hello! I'm a longtime listener, first time caller. You have a great forum here! I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on a new china 250 enduro. I have been looking at the $1500-$2000 bikes on several sites and they all look the same. As the title implies, my primary concern is getting a bike that is big and tough. I'm 6'1" 260, and looking for a bike that that likes being ridden hard by a fat dude. A tall seat (35-36") and 21"/18" wheels are also a must. I have some experience with chinese bikes from owning a couple large "touring" scooters a decade or so ago. Unfortunately the suspension was one of the (many) weak points on these. I'm a pretty good wrench and feel like I know what I'm getting into with the repairs/tuning/mods/fab etc... but looking for the sturdiest base to start from. My short list at the moment is Hawk, Rocketa DB08, and BMS 250 CRP. I have found quite a bit of info on the Hawk, but less on the BMS, and almost nothing on the Rocketa. From what I piece together, the BMS has the best fit and finish, but that is not necessarily what I'm going for. Likewise, I understand CSC makes a great bike, but a premium turn-key experience is not my primary consideration. I need tough. The Hawk is appealing as it has the highest advertised seat height I've seen. The EFI would also be a nice touch as I live at about 6,000' elevation and tuning a carb for everywhere I may ride becomes a full-time job. If the consensus is "They're all the same", I will probably buy the Hawk. If anyone has experience with some others to make a recommendation for better frame and suspension, I'd love to hear it. Thanks!
	0

03-16-2021, 02:19 AM	#2
Megadan Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Omaha, NE Posts: 7,932	The Standard Hawk I can speak for. I weigh basically what you weigh, and I know how to make a standard Hawk work. The DLX, Brozz, TT250, and BMS all have USD forks, which to date nobody has delved into as I have with the spaghetti thin standard Hawk forks in order to figure out any sort of spring info in order to find something off the shelf from the aftermarket that might work, or even the basic length and diameter info to at least have custom springs made. I do know that, unlike the standard Hawk, which has stupidly long dual rate springs with a very high secondary rate, so just doing preload spacers works even for big guys, I have heard others state that the USD fork springs are a bit on the light side, so even with preload adjustments they don't work well for those on the heavy end, but I can't speak from any personal experience. Out back most of the bikes are more or less the same non-link shock mount, with there being some variations in length, but otherwise utilizing similar spring weights, so at least in that aspect you would be covered. __________________ 2018 Hawk 250 - Full Mod list here. http://www.chinariders.net/showpost....62&postcount=1 Hawk Information and Resource guide: http://www.chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=20331 2010 VFR1200F - http://chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=20708 Last edited by Megadan; 03-16-2021 at 07:35 PM.
	0

03-16-2021, 04:16 PM	#4
idle_purr Join Date: Feb 2021 Location: NY Posts: 218	Welcome roadKill, On the Bashan side of town, the MotoMax seems to be most sturdy and has the beefiest frame. It is set up more for the road but strip her down naked and she will be like the rest. I would suggest a tire upgrade to something more 50/50 though. Here is the video of the Brozz taking some hate. __________________ NO HILL TOO STEEP NO MUD TOO DEEP The Brozz \| The Hawk Upgrades, Accessories, Etc... Assembly Checklist: Brozz 250 \| Hawk 250 ~idle_purr Last edited by idle_purr; 03-16-2021 at 05:25 PM.
	1

03-16-2021, 05:15 PM	#5
tknj99 Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: Central VA Posts: 1,249	That video combined with the torture test video of a Hawk and collective input from this community convinced me beyond all doubt that a Chinese bike would last as long as i want it to __________________ 2024 Zuma Storm 150 DLX 2019 Beta 430 RRS 2017 Honda Fury Former China Bikes: Tao DBX1, Brozz 250, CSC RX4, Titan DLX, Templar X
	1

03-16-2021, 07:33 PM	#9
tknj99 Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: Central VA Posts: 1,249	Thanks for that info and heads up.. So far so good, no leaks but will keep an eye on things as usual and look into the rebuild whenever that time comes __________________ 2024 Zuma Storm 150 DLX 2019 Beta 430 RRS 2017 Honda Fury Former China Bikes: Tao DBX1, Brozz 250, CSC RX4, Titan DLX, Templar X
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03-16-2021, 03:33 PM	#3
roadKill Join Date: Mar 2021 Posts: 20	Thanks Megadan, that's some good info. I have not considered the older Hawks with the conventional forks, but you might make me think about it. I see they are still available on ebay, probably elsewhere too if I look harder. Do you have any issues with your rear suspension bottoming out? How has your seat held up?
	0

03-16-2021, 05:55 PM	#6
DohcBikes Banned Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 59	I am 6'2" and just got a TBR7. Its really high. I just barely sit flat footed with the shock adjustment in the middle. Chinese USD forks look neat but lack function and tech. They are also usually very heavy. Conventional chinese forks have come a LONG way and are on par with japanese forks when correctly tuned. Chinese USD forks are for looks. They do not perform as well as a correctly tuned set of chinese conventional forks. They will leak within a year and most of them arent worth rebuilding.
	0

03-16-2021, 09:29 PM	#10
roadKill Join Date: Mar 2021 Posts: 20	Thanks for sharing that idle-purr, that's a great video! I asked about frame strength and that's about as direct of an answer as you can get. I have read a bit about the brozz and it sounds like a great bike. Unfortunately the seat height and wheel size keeps it off my short list.
	1

03-17-2021, 01:32 PM	#11
roadKill Join Date: Mar 2021 Posts: 20	The discussion on conventional forks being superior to inverted surprised me. I would have fallen for it and assumed the inverted shocks were an upgrade feature. But I follow the explanations and will trust the experience here. This has me thinking the Rocketa DB41 might be a good choice for me. It appears to to be a Bashan produced bike with big wheels, tall seat, and conventional forks. https://www.roketa.com/product/produ...=0&proID=59831 Does anyone see anything they don't like about it? The only thing I don't like is the price is in range with the Hawk with EFI, and this doesn't have EFI. Does anyone have experience with the Hawk EFI to know how good that system is?
	0

03-17-2021, 06:32 PM	#13
roadKill Join Date: Mar 2021 Posts: 20	The TBR7 looks like a total steal! I wish I wasn't hung up on the taller wheels ...
	0

03-26-2021, 04:03 AM	#15
roadKill Join Date: Mar 2021 Posts: 20	I kept going back and forth between the Hawk and various Bashan products to the point I was ready to go to the local honda dealer and let them suck out my blood. It's less than ideal to make a decision on products you can't personally inspect before buying, but I'm sure I am preaching to the choir here. Anywho, I got sick of overthinking this and ordered the standard Hawk. $1371 from powersportsmax with discounts for military (retired) and paying by cashier's check. Waiting for my bank to mail the check will probably slow things down a few days, but I'm not in a hurry. Thanks everyone for all the advice and I will let you know how it goes once it arrives.
	3