Need more power!!

[BakedOregonian]

Hey guys, my '22 Hawk is running great but I feel like I could get more hp out of the top end. Would I increase or decrease my main jet for that? It's not bogging out or anything just no more hp after half throttle .

[Bill Hilly]

If it's not bogging, or sputtering, then I don't think jetting is going to give you what your looking for. I don't know what you have already did to your bike, but things like aftermarket exhaust, and then properly rejetting it. If you are running the stock carb with stock jetting, it's probably going to need jetted up some . I assume that with you handle, you live in Oregon, and so you may be riding at high elevation. These bikes just don't have a lot of punch once you start into the upper rpm range. I know from experience that free flowing exhaust give the bikes a boost, and from what I understand porting the head, and thinner head gasket gives a little more, as does timing advance key, .I would then say that the long duration cam would be justified. I have been intended to port my heads, and install a 4 degree key in one bike, but I am acy satisfied with my bikes for what I ask of them, plus I am a procrastinator . LOL

[Megadan]

Stock bike? Any work already done? If yes, what?

[Thumper]

Originally Posted by BakedOregonian

Hey guys, my '22 Hawk is running great but I feel like I could get more hp out of the top end. Would I increase or decrease my main jet for that? It's not bogging out or anything just no more hp after half throttle .

Sell it and don't bother mucking around. You can gain some low/midrange with a cat-delete and drill out the exhaust. Or do more work/spend more money on head porting
Or spend lots of money on a new exhaust system... or all of the above and STILL won't make 20hp

Really. If you want more power buy it. You will end up with a much more satisfying change in usable torque and power

You need the 172FMM engine (20hp).

[BakedOregonian]

Rather, I'd like to get optimal performance out of her. I've added the Nibbi PE28 and have a pod filter. Swapped out the sprockets to the recommended 17-45. I'm not dissatisfied with her performance, I would just like to get her running the best she can.

[Zapkin]

Originally Posted by BakedOregonian

Rather, I'd like to get optimal performance out of her. I've added the Nibbi PE28 and have a pod filter. Swapped out the sprockets to the recommended 17-45. I'm not dissatisfied with her performance, I would just like to get her running the best she can.

I feel you. When my 255lb ass sits on my Hawk, I can hear it moaning in anticipation of the misery its going to suffer when I climb hills. But, I am not a very experienced rider overall so I am okay with the power for now. One day, I will have a larger more powerful bike, but I need to get way more practice riding.

[Bill Hilly]

The exhaust is restricted pretty bad at the catalytic converter on the Hawk, so I would recommend either getting rid of the catalytic converter, or installing aftermarket exhaust. It does make a difference. I just have a well tuned VM26 clone and pod filter on my Hawk, and I removed the cat, and muffler baffle, and I have 46/17 sprockets, and I think the bike runs great, and think it's probably making close to what my TBR7 makes. The TBR7 has full aftermarket exhaust, pod filter, and Nibbi PE28FL. It also has 46/17, but smaller, tires, and they are the stock 50/50. The Hawk is on stock Knobby tires. The Hawk feel less powerful due to the bigger tires, and the knobbies probably also eat some power. That's why I think that the Hawk probably makes equal, or close to the same power on the crank. I think if both bikes had the same wheels, and tires they would be pretty equally matched.. I am pretty satisfied with the 46/17 on the TBR7, although it is probably just a hair lower than I would like, but I think my Hawk is geared too high with the same 46/17 sprocket. I don't need a bike that is geared to potentially cruise at 65, or 70, which I think the Hawk would do on the right road. I've had it 70 going down hill a few times, but I am thinking about going to a 16 front because all I need is a bike that will run a steady 55, without being under much stress. I don't know if you want more power, or top speed, but a 16 tooth may be something you want to consider.

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by Thumper

Sell it and don't bother mucking around. You can gain some low/midrange with a cat-delete and drill out the exhaust. Or do more work/spend more money on head porting
Or spend lots of money on a new exhaust system... or all of the above and STILL won't make 20hp

Really. If you want more power buy it. You will end up with a much more satisfying change in usable torque and power

You need the 172FMM engine (20hp).

An exhaust isn't even that expensive, and the single best mod one can do for power gains.

Also, a cam (the specific 292 grind in my own bike actually) and head porting with an exhaust will make right around 20hp. 18hp at the tire to be more specific. So, there is that...

It also had a satisfying change in useable torque and power, mid range and top end, including the ability to rev out higher. Why my bike manages 74mph with a 17/45 sprocket combo and my giant butt in the saddle. It even managed that without the nibbi carb, just struggled up top a hair because the PZ30B was holding it back at the very top of the rpm range just a teensy weensy bit. Still managed to get there though.

Sure, it's more money, nobody can deny that, but I have no regrets with my modded and every bit as daily rideable CG250. Those specific upgrades, if you purchase it all through Motocult as a package, and the exhaust combined will tack on about $425 (carb not included) to the total cost of the Hawk, most of which is due to the head costing $250.

Plus, there are those of us that simply just enjoy modding something "inferior" for whatever reasons we have to do it.

I, personally, love doing it entirely because of people like you that pooh pooh it away as some inferior thing not worthy of their time.

None of this is saying the 172 isn't a great engine, because it is, but CG's are more fun. Just like people still hot rod Chevy 292's and Ford 300's. Sometimes it's not about "superiority"

[Thumper]

20 hp is hardly superior to much of anything! But it is 30-35% more torque with no modifications than the 167FMM. That extra torque is especially useful for bigger bodies!

18hp is good, but I was just saying it is just a whole lot of work to get there. Engine mods are your only choice if you start with the 167FMM. And yes, by the time you add up all of the items purchased to get there, what would that sum buy?

I have both engines (Bashan Storm and Templar X), and so I get the side by side comparison. The 167FMM is a nice engine, but the 172FMM is great! The Templars are all below $2000, including the 6 speed ($1800). That said, a cat delete, exhaust drilling and rejet definitely made my Storm more powerful, and increased the top end substantially. That isn't too much work, and all I actually paid for was jets (like $10).

Besides Templars, Trailmaster has one. It is the TM35, but has no lights. It is under $2300.

I think there are other options that have the 172FMM. They seem to be taller though. It would be nice to see more dual sports like the Bashan Recon, Brozz, and of course the Hawk coming with this engine.

I would not pooh pooh the idea of extracting 18-20 hp from the 167FMM. It takes about 6 hours to properly smoke ribs, and it's worth every second

Originally Posted by Megadan

An exhaust isn't even that expensive, and the single best mod one can do for power gains.

Also, a cam (the specific 292 grind in my own bike actually) and head porting with an exhaust will make right around 20hp. 18hp at the tire to be more specific. So, there is that...

It also had a satisfying change in useable torque and power, mid range and top end, including the ability to rev out higher. Why my bike manages 74mph with a 17/45 sprocket combo and my giant butt in the saddle. It even managed that without the nibbi carb, just struggled up top a hair because the PZ30B was holding it back at the very top of the rpm range just a teensy weensy bit. Still managed to get there though.

Sure, it's more money, nobody can deny that, but I have no regrets with my modded and every bit as daily rideable CG250. Those specific upgrades, if you purchase it all through Motocult as a package, and the exhaust combined will tack on about $425 (carb not included) to the total cost of the Hawk, most of which is due to the head costing $250.

Plus, there are those of us that simply just enjoy modding something "inferior" for whatever reasons we have to do it.

I, personally, love doing it entirely because of people like you that pooh pooh it away as some inferior thing not worthy of their time.

None of this is saying the 172 isn't a great engine, because it is, but CG's are more fun. Just like people still hot rod Chevy 292's and Ford 300's. Sometimes it's not about "superiority"

[Oldenslow]

I see claims of 16-18 HP for these motors. Maybe, depending on how you measure, but run it thru sprockets, chain and wheel and I doubt you've got 12 to the ground.

For what they have, they do OK, but fast and powerful they will never be.

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by Thumper

20 hp is hardly superior to much of anything! But it is 30-35% more torque with no modifications than the 167FMM. That extra torque is especially useful for bigger bodies!

18hp is good, but I was just saying it is just a whole lot of work to get there. Engine mods are your only choice if you start with the 167FMM. And yes, by the time you add up all of the items purchased to get there, what would that sum buy?

I have both engines (Bashan Storm and Templar X), and so I get the side by side comparison. The 167FMM is a nice engine, but the 172FMM is great! The Templars are all below $2000, including the 6 speed ($1800). That said, a cat delete, exhaust drilling and rejet definitely made my Storm more powerful, and increased the top end substantially. That isn't too much work, and all I actually paid for was jets (like $10).

Besides Templars, Trailmaster has one. It is the TM35, but has no lights. It is under $2300.

I think there are other options that have the 172FMM. They seem to be taller though. It would be nice to see more dual sports like the Bashan Recon, Brozz, and of course the Hawk coming with this engine.

I would not pooh pooh the idea of extracting 18-20 hp from the 167FMM. It takes about 6 hours to properly smoke ribs, and it's worth every second

That's 18hp at the rear wheel, mind you. Which on a chain driven bike puts the power at the engine right around 20.

The only real weakness to the CG design is the single shared cam lobe. That is what ultimately limits it.

The main thing about the 172 engines are the extra gear in the transmission. My Hawk is every bit as powerful as the 172 engine is, so power is not something I find myself wanting for. What I wish I had was one more gear so I could gear the bike better for both off and on road.

A CG with a decat and proper jetting is about 16-17hp at the engine, depending on the quaity of the head casting.

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by Oldenslow

I see claims of 16-18 HP for these motors. Maybe, depending on how you measure, but run it thru sprockets, chain and wheel and I doubt you've got 12 to the ground.

For what they have, they do OK, but fast and powerful they will never be.

Because these engines make 16-17hp with a good exhaust and properly tuned carb. The CSC TT250 factory power rating is 16.1hp with full CARB compliant emissions in place. Most average right at 13.5hp to the tire.

The "claim" of 18hp at the rear wheel has dyno sheets to back it up. A TBR7 owner I was talking to installed the same cam I have on my bike along with an exhaust and a PE30 carb with a head ported by a vendor here. Once they had the AF ratios dialed in they did 3 power runs that averaged 17.8hp at the rear wheel. Motocult sells a cam and head package (same cam), and paired with a PE28 put down similar numbers of 18.1hp

Motocult's full big bore engine package with the 292 cam that I run and their ported head, with an exhaust system, made over 20hp at the tire.

Cleveland Cyclewerks Heist land speed bike has a full article on the build and a video of the dyno with the numbers. Standard bore with a custom cam profile and the jug decked a couple of MM to set a tight squish gap. 23hp at the rear wheel. This bike did 93.7mph on the salt flats. Not bad for 229cc's with pushrods.

This is all recorded evidence that is all independently done pointing out that you are incorrect, they can be fast and powerful - for what they are. It's a pushrod engine with 229cc to work with. (249 with a big bore cylinder). Thanks for coming to my Ted talk.

[Zapkin]

The Zongshen is a motor of their own design right? not a clone. If that is true, how reliable are they really? the reliability of the cg250 is well known and it is based on a proven design. just curious?

[XLsior]

all CG engines are based and expanded up the original 1975 Honda CG125.

[Thumper]

Originally Posted by Zapkin

The Zongshen is a motor of their own design right? not a clone. If that is true, how reliable are they really? the reliability of the cg250 is well known and it is based on a proven design. just curious?

It is a clone. Not an original design. Reverse engineering. But remarkably good and reliable stolen technology.