04-07-2022, 06:03 PM
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#1 |
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Join Date: Jan 2022
Location: Weed, California.
Posts: 271
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ABS on the RX4 .... use both brakes or else !
yesterday I tested my ABS system on the RX4.....
using only the rear brake I locked up the back tire .... it chirped for a split second and then was free wheeling I had to release the rear brake peddle and apply again before the bike tried to stop again. WTF that is the stupidest thing I have ever seen !!!!! granted I did not apply the front brake at all , and I have been told that would have made the outcome much different. but being an old man and have been riding for 50+ years with hardly ever using the front brake I have to say my confidence in the RX4 has reached a new low Yes I have been practicing using the front brake alot after watching many videos on youtube about trail braking.... but to be forced to use both brakes just to make the ABS system work is Ludacris ! ..... I asked CSC about this and it's been 3 days and I have not heard back from them yet... I suppose it is the first time they have encountered this issue.... but what a big issue it is ! if you happen to lock up the rear wheel all of a sudden no brakes from the rear wheel at all.... that can get you killed real quickly ! I have been told by a fella that because I used only one brake ( the rear) it caused the problem.... he suggested that I apply both brakes next time I test it and see what it does.... and I have to agree my Misuse of the brakes may well have caused the issue... they were designed to be both used and they should modulate the brakes to both wheels to stop you faster than you could by yourself...... But I haven't got the muscle memory down yet to Use both brakes ! and many times I simply just use the rear brake alone and what I discovered is if you do that and lock up the rear wheel all stopping from the rear wheel goes away and it just starts free wheeling you have to let up off the brake and re apply to get your brakes back ....that has to be the stupidest innovation to any motorcycle that I have ever seen.... you use both brakes or you stand the chance of loosing the one you are using..... how in gods name can you manufacture a bike like that in good conscious ? it's going to get someone killed for sure ! ..... so I am left with 2 options disable the ABS entirely, or use both brakes at the same time all the time...... and never forget ! ..... Bob.....
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04-07-2022, 06:17 PM
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#2 |
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Northeast
Posts: 934
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If that’s the way it really works, that’s not going to be any fun once you get off the road and go down a steep hill with rocks or loose dirt. How the heck is that supposed to work?
Definitely happy to have my simple little Chinese bike with no electronic systems like that. There are always raging debates about these control systems on other forums. Some people really love this stuff. I just can’t understand it on my end. But, you should have always been using two brakes all along. I’m not sure why are you are just using one. That’s not the right technique. Even if you have been riding forever. You can vary the amount of each one, but you should really be engaging both to slow the bike down better.
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04-07-2022, 07:54 PM
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#3 |
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Join Date: Jan 2022
Location: Weed, California.
Posts: 271
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Well i know from experience that using just the rear brake on my 2021 RX4
that is how it works.... the brakes work fine till the rear wheel brakes traction then it stops braking completely ! .... if your not riding really fast you can go through life not using any brakes at all if you ride at a reasonable speed all you need is the rear brake if your hauling ass then yah you probably need both brakes to stop in time. sense I lived till I was 17 yrs on a ranch with a 2 mile dirt road as a driveway,I learned the hard way not to touch that front brake, and that habit is very hard to kill..... shut off the throttle and apply the rear brake is all you need to do in most cases.... but if a deer hops out in front of you you need that front brake the rear alone isn't good enough. don't get me wrong I do use the front brake on occasion, but not every time I use the rear brake..... just old habits I suppose.... so this ABS system on the RX4 can be detrimental to me and others like me if they should lock up the rear wheel inadvertently.... because when they do the rear brake stops working almost immediately and its free wheeling .... I have not tested it using both brakes at the same time...i'm working up to that ! LOL I am very used to keeping the bike upright if the back wheel is locked up and sliding I have practiced that long and hard and am proud to say I can stop my bikes very fast indeed fast enough to be careful not to do that in traffic !..... that is why I got the bike with ABS in the first place ! I have read where it can stop you faster than humanly possable and that is a good thing but ONLY if you use it as it was designed ! no one ever said that ! what I discovered was the rear brake stops working the instant it starts skidding...... and that isn't the same thing at all, it's much, much worse ! ...... However it may well stop me faster than I could if I used both brakes at the same time.... in fact I think it would ( i don't know I haven't tested that yet) .... but there are thousands of Old guys like me that even took the front brake off their bikes in the old days to save weight they didn't use the front brake anyway it was a hazard at best. ....these guys will get a new bike with ABS and run into the car ahead of them one day because they only used the rear brake.... you don't think anyone would do that to a motorcycle and no one has ever mentioned it. but I guarantee you that is going to cause many guys to get hurt just because they used only one brake ! not both. .... yah the answer is to use both brakes but some times you don't have your fingers on that brake lever so your brake system is only going to function properly till the tire skids..... and then you have to re apply the brake, well, by then your a hood ornament ! .... new bike means a new way of riding...but it is extremely hard to brake old habits ! ( no pun intended) .... this also means if you are a avid guy about using both brakes all the time and shit hits the fan and you have to stop real fast and you don't use both brakes your S.O.L. as the bike will stop stopping as soon as it brakes traction this is not a good thing guys this is a bad thing ! you won't be stopping you'll be crashing. ..... I think I will remove the ABS system completely off my bike simply because I cannot be trusted to use both brakes every single time... i forget....I'm not a robot ! heck just learning to use the front brake on my ninja 250R has been an up hill battle but it corners so much better when I do ! ..... I'll wait till after I test the ABS one more time before I take it off or pull it's fuze...... but right now I am completely disillusioned... HAHAHHAH! ..... Bob........
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04-07-2022, 08:44 PM
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#4 |
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Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Portsmouth, Virginia, USA
Posts: 632
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Bob, I understand the idea of not using the front brake on a loose surface. With that said, your aversion to using the front brake is going to cause you problems in the long run. Fully 80% of the braking force on a motorcycle is with the front brake. As you clamp down on the brakes the weight of the bike shifts fwd, thus taking weight off the rear wheel and putting more on the front. That's why you can lock up the rear so easily, little to no weight on the rear. The ABS system is there more to stop you from locking up the rear rather than to limit the front brake.
Like you, I have decades of motorcycle riding experience...since about 1964. I use the front brake almost exclusively, but I'm almost always on pavement. When I do get into dirt I have to force myself to take my fingers off the front brake lever and concentrate on using the rear for most of my braking. Old dogs, new tricks. |
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04-07-2022, 10:22 PM
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#5 |
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Join Date: Jan 2022
Location: Weed, California.
Posts: 271
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well I don't think I'll have problems in the long run from not using the front brake most of the time I don't use it because I don't need that stopping power...but it's there if I do need it and I do know how to use it
......but this ABS system on my new bike is forcing me to use the front brake all the time... at every stop called for or not ...and that irks me ! because if I don't use it and get into the habit of doing that every time, the time I do need to stop on a dime and brake traction it's all over I'll just roll right into what ever it is.... and I had not planned on that aspect of the ABS brakes at all. .... Yes I know all the reasons your supposed to use the 2 brakes on a bike all the time ...but I can't trust myself to remember to do it 100% of the time I get out there and enjoying the ride and thinking about the cows in the field and then one hops out in front of me I don't know if I'll remember to use both brakes or not... I better..... or my brakes won't work (at least after the first screech... by then it's too late ! can you see what a screw up the ABS brakes are ?.... they may well be the best thing sense sliced bread but if there is one chink in their armor its having to use both brakes and if you don't the brake your using goes away. .... that's worse than selling a bike with no brakes at all ! so they give you brakes that work like normal till you lock one up and then it only locks up for a split second and then it's free wheeling....AURGH !!!! if I had a dime for every time I've locked up just the rear wheel alone and feathered it i'ed be a rich man ! but this system takes away that advantage and I wouldn't mind that at all if it took over and stopped me as fast as possible but it doesn't it turns the wheel loose ! how stupid can you get ? ..... OBVIOUSLY that is not the whole story, with the front brake applied as well I expect it to work as stated and monitor the wheels so they don't brake traction.....And when riding in snow that has got to be an advantage, but are you going to be using your front brake when driving in snow ???? I'm not ! if you do, you'll only do it once ! .... i dunno guys I guess I have alot to learn and re learn.... ..... a fella told me something to the effect of... so you come around a blind corner and see something you have to stop for and your going way too fast, you simply grab both brakes to the max and let the bike decide what is the best way to stop...... and it works.... he loves his ABS ! ..... I don't have that kind of faith yet ! LOL .....I am now wondering how much front brake is needed to get the ABS system to function properly is there a fine line where it will work or not work I would guess that even just a little front brake is all it would take .... I'll find out for sure.... because stopping fast on a bike is a major priority to me...... you don't always need it but when you do it's irreplaceable. Bob.......
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04-08-2022, 02:46 AM
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#6 |
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Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Northeast
Posts: 934
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I do NOT envy your situation here.
There are plenty of times when rear brake is all you need. Slippery times. Rocky, steep downhill runs. An emergency situation with sand all over the road. I guess snow. Anything too slippery to be using the front brake. I still don’t understand how this bike is supposed to go down a very steep hill with loose rocks in dirt if you can’t use only the rear brake. Now, are you definitely sure it wasn’t doing the proper ABS thing and letting the back wheel roll at the point just before lockup? I know in the snow ABS often feels like no brakes at all in cars. It’ll roll that wheel at the point just before lockup across snow/ice and because the friction is so low, it feels basically like your brakes failed. Also, is it possible this ABS is wrong? Like that the logic is incorrect in the computer? If it does what you’re saying it seems like it’s wrong. Finally, does this bike have a “dirt mode” or other mode where these electronics are turned off?
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04-08-2022, 10:29 AM
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#7 |
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Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Portsmouth, Virginia, USA
Posts: 632
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On the RX4 the ABS can be disabled. My 2020 had a switch (installed by CSC) that disabled the ABS. Doing so also disabled the speedo, I guess that was to remind the rider that ABS was not going to function. I'm sure the 2021 has the same feature but I decided to not migrate that over from my 2020 to the 2021. As I understand it, you can also disable the ABS by some combination of ignition key strokes or something similar but you have to go through the drill every time you want to turn it off. A call to CSC clear that up.
I can recall a few conversations where a rider said that he got into a situation where he had to 'lay the bike down'. Invariably more questions pointed out that the rider stomped on the rear brake, the rear locked up, the ass end came around and the rider crashed. Never an intentional move to put the bike on the ground as a defensive move. |
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04-08-2022, 01:39 PM
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#8 |
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Join Date: Jan 2022
Location: Weed, California.
Posts: 271
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Joey at CSC was kind enough to send me a copy of his notes on installing the ABS switch about a month before they got them back in stock....
but I still have many questions.... are the wheels independent of each other in the ABS system ? can you disable the rear and have the front work like it is supposed to > .... it would seem to me that the ABS is linked to each other and that is why hitting the rear brake alone made it release the back brake after it broke traction.... So if that's the case ... disabling the rear wheel ABS may well stop the front ABS from working a test you could do is find a flat smooth dirt road and lock up the front wheel and see if it modulates like it should I bet you dollars to donuts that it will lock up for a split second and then be released completely. ..... if that's the case disabling BOTH wheels is the only reasonable answer .... I want my ABS system to work but if it depends on weather I use both brakes or just one that is totally broken to me ! because I may use one brake and I may use both ...it depends on the situation. ..... I did all kinds of looking up info on ABS systems last night and it looks like for the most part that the wheels on a motorcycle are independent However if they are then My ABS is defective from the get go....( not good) but there are so many different types out there it could be just about anything. both wheels are supposed to sense loosing traction and release the brakes if it does... that is the function of the ABS system and then re apply that braking force in a few milliseconds ....mine never re applied that force it just released the back brake and left it at that... so now I am think it's not so much pilot error but a defective part and that would explain the horrendlsy stupid way it's working....it's broken ! ..... if that is the case I have full confidence that CSC will make it right... but I have to talk to them on the phone and I hate that as I am hard of hearing.... ..... I'll let ya know what happens. ..... Bob.....
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It's too late when you've gone too far ! |
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04-08-2022, 01:58 PM
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#9 |
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Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Central VA
Posts: 1,301
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I remember when I first got the RX4 onto a gravel road and soon after approaching a stop sign at a face pace, when I applied the rear brake the ABS took effect and started slowing me down but not nearly at the rate I expected and instead of stopping at the intersection I wind up half way thru it.. not good.. well I quickly learned that limitation and rode differently after that.. it definitely made me question taking a steep dirt downhill with any reassurance.. but no worries these days with either the Brozz or the Titan.. sometimes low tech can be a great thing
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2024 Templar 250 2021 Beta 500 RRS 2018 VStrom 1000 XT Former China Bikes: Tao DBX1, Brozz 250, CSC RX4, Titan DLX, Templar X, Storm DLX 150 |
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04-08-2022, 04:04 PM
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#10 |
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Join Date: Jan 2022
Location: Weed, California.
Posts: 271
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Ok I just got a call from Joey at CSC motorcycles I was surprised to hear that he said he tried to call me yesterday but no answer.... ( well I hardly ever hear that stupid phone!)
anyway we chatted about 30 minutes and I explained in detail what happened and he said Yah it sounds like it's working like it should it's just your not used to it ! he said he took the RX4 out and tested the ABS system extensively and at first he thought it didn't work either but it was ! both of the wheels are independant in ABS so the front does not care what the back is doing and it's a fast system and it will modulate so fast you cannot feel it which gives the impression that it is not working at all but you are slowing down as fast as you can when it is working.... .... I Must test it again ( this time on a dirt road ) and see if it is actually slowing me down like he says. hearing him explain what it feels like kind'a sounds like what I felt..... when it kicks in it lets up alot... it has to to keep the wheel from loosing traction again. .... something tells me I can stop faster than the ABS system then ! LOL .... but be that as it may he did calm my fears and prompt me to test it several times and get used to how it feels.... and he's right there I am sure.... ...so it's testing time ... but the information I got from another guy was totally wrong you do NOT need to use both brakes to make it work use which ever one you want as they are totally independent ! ( that is how they should be ).... ... being gullible has always been a weakness of mine ....Sigh ! .... Anyway, it sounds like the ABS system is working fine.... it's just I am not used to how it feels yet when it is in operation.... ..... now weather I can stop faster than the ABS is a whole nother question.... because it felt like it released a whole lot of pressure to get the tire to turn.... and I can't see that stopping me faster in the long run ! that is hard on tires though ! LOL ..... just so you know.... .... Bob........
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04-08-2022, 04:09 PM
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#11 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2022
Location: Weed, California.
Posts: 271
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Quote:
what good is the ABS system if you can stop faster by hand eh ? I think that is what we will find with the RX4 ! ..... time will tell with more testing ! .... Bob....
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It's too late when you've gone too far ! |
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04-08-2022, 07:48 PM
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#12 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Northeast
Posts: 934
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Quote:
Just a small addition to your post. The reason that the speedometer goes away when you disable ABS is that ABS uses a wheel speed sensor. When you disable that sensor, you disable the wheel speed input to the bike. So it doesn’t know how fast it’s going to display the speed info for you. Unfortunately, they both use the same sensor. It’s like that on most bikes.
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04-09-2022, 12:02 AM
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#13 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2022
Location: Weed, California.
Posts: 271
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Quote:
so it FEELS like there is no brakes but they are still working (from Joey at CSC).... he said it surprised him as well but they actually do work.... so your not going to go Rrrrt , Rrrrrt , Rrrrt till you stop I thought that is what it should do...it didn't it reduced the pressure enough to stop the rear wheel from sliding..... and it did that very well........ I would have ran the stop sign though if I hadn't gotten the front brake and re applied the rear brake because the braking force was very little indeed ! .....it's like they over compensated ! LOL .... I asked Joey if he new of a way to modify the ABS unit to apply more force to the rear wheel when the ABS is active .... ..... .... Yah that idea is great on the pavement but as the other guy said what about down hill dirt.... if the ABS kicks in the braking force will be less and it will be like no brakes at all ! .... if I press hard enough to lock up the brake I want that wheel to stop not keep going ! the ABS system is designed to reduce that pressure so the rear wheel will not stop turning.... well that means it lets up off the brake then...... how are you going to stop then ? ....both the wheels are independent of one another so locking up the rear and the front still works like normal, till it skids then it's in the same boat both reduced to where you cannot stop them from turning..... that means a 90 mph run down a steep dirt road folks !!!!! .... I'm looking for ABS Mods any body know of any ??? .... Bob.........
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04-09-2022, 07:16 PM
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#14 |
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Join Date: Jan 2022
Location: Weed, California.
Posts: 271
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You know , it's interesting enough to mention when I was talking with Joey from CSC he mentioned that I may well have let up off the rear brake instinkly and that made it feel like it was free wheeling and I think he is right ...too many years of riding and when I feel the tires skidding it's automatic that I let up, i even do that in a car for heavens sake !
and this was the first attempt at skidding a tire on the RX4 ...i am still very cautious with this bike it's still very new to me... i think a test of pounding the rear brake and holding it there is in order .... i have been working under the assumption that the ABS system reduces the pressure on the rear by too much but you know that may not be the case it is possable the I am the wild card in the mix .... i dunno.... i want to find out though ! .... I just need enough ambition to go and test it and lately I have had no extra ambition at all ! .... and today the temperature turned chilly again with the wind kicking up so I think I will put off the testing a few days.... no doubt I have to educate myself on the ABS system on this bike. can it actually stop you on a steep down hill dirt road ? the way it looks now ...no it can't but you know that is silly for a bike manufacturer to do that, so the jury is still out ! I think it is very probable that the same pressure you apply is re applied to the brake once the ABS kicks in and it has a very fast sensor in it so you would not feel the skid so it would let up again ,and again, ..... confusing the heck out of how the system is actually supposed to work ! LOL .... testing is the only way to find out ! .... later ! Bob......
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