Front wheel offset - Page 2

Weldangrind · 11-24-2009, 11:11 AM

waynec, before going that route, have you checked the hub to hub measurement, to see if the sides are equal?

waynec · 11-24-2009, 01:57 PM

Yes I have checked the measurement and can only offer this.
Hub to hub is 22"
In a perfect world the middle would make 11" intersect the lower shock mount.
It does not. It falls just on the inside of the nut holding the shock...which on my machine makes it the right side of the shock mount, when viewed from the rear.
The spacer you needed will soon be on mine, but it appears to me as though it will only result in aligning (taking the bend out of) the mount on the left more than shifting anything.
The shock currently leans a little to the right so maybe the shim will assist with that.
I think the axle is badly made leaving it off kilter....but is there perhaps some play associated with the 2 lock nuts on the right side of the axle???....waynec

waynev · 11-24-2009, 04:36 PM

Well i'll be damned, upon futher measurement mine too is off 3/4" to the right. Off the front chassis to each front wheel there is a 1/4" difference so i can adjust that with the rod ends so in total the rear axle needs to go to the left 1/2", my chain does line up perfectly and the bike tracks straight when going straight so i think i will leave mine for now.

Weldangrind · 11-25-2009, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waynec

Yes I have checked the measurement and can only offer this.
Hub to hub is 22"
In a perfect world the middle would make 11" intersect the lower shock mount.
It does not. It falls just on the inside of the nut holding the shock...which on my machine makes it the right side of the shock mount, when viewed from the rear.
The spacer you needed will soon be on mine, but it appears to me as though it will only result in aligning (taking the bend out of) the mount on the left more than shifting anything.
The shock currently leans a little to the right so maybe the shim will assist with that.
I think the axle is badly made leaving it off kilter....but is there perhaps some play associated with the 2 lock nuts on the right side of the axle???....waynec

I didn't ask the question very well. What I meant was this: is the distance from the front hub on the right to the rear hub on the right the same as the distance on the left? I don't think that side to side alignment is the only issue; I think that the axle is diagonal, as viewed from above.

BTW, I agree on the poorly made axle. Welcome to China quads.

waynec · 11-25-2009, 10:20 PM

Yes...i did not understand. I have measured and there is a 3/4 inch discrepancy in the distance axle to axle. I did not see any clear resolution so I took the rear assembly apart and installed the spacers as you did. My chain adjustment was already near its limit so I also took a link out of the chain. When all was back together again and lined up as best I could the same 3/4 inch difference existed still........
The small shift of the assembly due to the spacers did straighten the leaning shock and brought my slight chain misalignment to perfect and also made my wheel offset just that little bit worse...cause ,of course, those adjustment took the axle the opposite way for that problem....waynec

PCD · 11-25-2009, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waynec

Yes...i did not understand. I have measured and there is a 3/4 inch discrepancy in the distance axle to axle. I did not see any clear resolution so I took the rear assembly apart and installed the spacers as you did. My chain adjustment was already near its limit so I also took a link out of the chain. When all was back together again and lined up as best I could the same 3/4 inch difference existed still........
The small shift of the assembly due to the spacers did straighten the leaning shock and brought my slight chain misalignment to perfect and also made my wheel offset just that little bit worse...cause ,of course, those adjustment took the axle the opposite way for that problem....waynec

I'm seriously wondering now if its a frame issue. These are mass produced and they most likely use a welding jig for the frame, but I have not seen any robotics in any of the chinese factory pictures.
Labour being thier cheapest resource, they may use multiple jigs and hand bomb these things in and out with manual welding.

One of thier QC checks would most assuredly be chain alignment as it has a greater negative consequence if wrong than a few inch's offset from front to back wheels.

My rod ends are within 1 thread of each other by the way, and total adjustment left to me is about 3/8" to 1/2" at the most, per rod end.

It could also be cumlative error here. 1/4" on one A arm, 1/8' on the other ,1/4" on the frame, 1/2' on the rear axle, etc.

In either case though I dont think I'm going to bother with it because the difference on mine is fairly small, and secondly this could end up being the tail chaser of the decade. Never ending quest to get it "perfect" and I suspect if you fix one area it may throw another two out.

waynec · 11-25-2009, 11:25 PM

My frame looks like the welder was on crack. The assorted tabs are all askew.. the reinforcing plates are all on slightly diifferent planes. I am with you in that I will space out my rear wheel so I get similar cornering in both directions and be done with it...........still love it anyway even with all its ?????/.....waynec

Weldangrind · 11-26-2009, 01:55 AM

waynec, I believe that the 3/4" discrepancy and the wheel offset is all due to the swingarm. Adding a spacer to the axle won't solve either problem if the swingarm is already bent.

My theory (and that's all this is) is that if the swingarm is mounted without a spacer and is forced to accomodate the axle, the axle position won't be square with the quad. Once that happens, the swingarm would either need to be straightened or replaced to correct the issue. Not that I would.

Pete, I'm with you on the jig. I also agree that he 3/4" discrepancy could just be tolerance stack-up.

All that said, I still love it.

PCD · 11-26-2009, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weldangrind

My theory (and that's all this is) is that if the swingarm is mounted without a spacer and is forced to accomodate the axle, the axle position won't be square with the quad. Once that happens, the swingarm would either need to be straightened or replaced to correct the issue. Not that I would.
All that said, I still love it.

I have a brand new swingarm. Long story.

It was a project I was keeping under wraps but I may shelve it for now and compare the two off the bike.

Just have to get the motivation to start, but I need a weekend of R&R badly.

I still like the bike, and I can deal with the million little things, and mods, and improvements we've made...but...sell me a bike with a messed up frame? Uh, no... Thats not kosher because its non fixable by 99% of the population. Of course, it may not be the frame at all, who knows right now.

W&G, if I understand you correctly, you are saying the axle may off square to the centerline of the bike, with one wheel slightly forward and one wheel slightly rearward. (think of top view on a drawing), or an inverted "T".
If that is what you are saying, then that would be another kettle of fish entirely.

If I get motivated I'll pull off the swingarm this weekend.

Weldangrind · 11-26-2009, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PCD

W&G, if I understand you correctly, you are saying the axle may off square to the centerline of the bike, with one wheel slightly forward and one wheel slightly rearward. (think of top view on a drawing), or an inverted "T".
If that is what you are saying, then that would be another kettle of fish entirely.

Exactly what I'm saying. You just did a better job of explaining my thoughts than I did.

If the swingarm is forced to accomodate the axle, it seems likely that the axle would end up out of square. If that's the case, perhaps the frame isn't the problem at all (or less than we thought).

waynec · 12-02-2009, 07:29 PM

In anticipation of closing this issue and thread I am posting 2 pics to display my hub extention. 4 plywood.....not hardwood....discs, epoxied together with 41/2 inch 3/8 bolts through the hub and clamped 'til epoxy cured. Next day 2 wraps of 6oz glass. Total extension 3 3/8 inch.
I hope to notice superior stability and more consistent cornering when comparing left & right turns. Based on the posts my alignment was the worst of anyone. I just could not stand to leave it as bad as it was.

I had planned to use m10 fine thread bolts but these are impossible to find where the thread runs full to the bolt head. The wheels will be mounted with Nylocks.

Some may disagree but I am concerned about the amount of free play between the splines of the hub and axle. My sons 4trax...very old had the hub splines strip clean out this year. Moisture, rust and wear as a result of excessive free play. This hub was as loose as his 25 year old machine. Anyway, I thickened some epoxy and dressed the splines prior to assembly. Its rock solid now and if I ever need it off, epoxy will soften with heat. I expect it will result in a much longer life.

waynev · 12-02-2009, 08:15 PM

3-3/8" off, holy crap.....how can it be off that far?, mine is only about 3/4". I hope your spacer holds up, and i must say you win the big ba$$s competition.

Weldangrind · 12-02-2009, 08:16 PM

You're absolutely right about the splines. I have mine torqued beyond belief to eliminate slop, which means that the splines aren't cut properly. I like the idea of applying epoxy as a filler between the hub and shaft; as you say, it'll come apart with heat if necessary.

Please post a photo once you've mounted the wheel to your new hub extension.

TurboT · 12-02-2009, 11:23 PM

That is rather ingenious! Well done.

I'm happy to hear it is giving you a more stable ride.

waynec · 12-03-2009, 06:58 PM

waynev.......after your observation pertaining to the merit of some nuts related to my wheel hub fix.... I started to 2nd guess myself.... and added another 4 wraps of 6oz glass......I figure...epoxy bond, mechanical compression of the bolts, reinforcing benefit of the bolts thru the structure and the stabilization of the entire assembly with the solid wrap around the perimeter. Might work.....

I am as confounded by the amount of discrepancy in my wheels as anyone. If by chance, a beast owner could measure the distance between their rear hubs. My inside hub to hub measurment is 28 inches on the button. If you use a small tape you can run it through one of the holes in the brake disc which allows the tape to stay in line.

I would like to rule out 'wrong axle'......thx....waynec

11-24-2009, 11:11 AM	#16
Weldangrind Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sardis, BC, Canada Posts: 25,977	waynec, before going that route, have you checked the hub to hub measurement, to see if the sides are equal? __________________ Weldangrind "I figure I'm well-prepared for coping with a bike that comes from the factory with unresolved issues and that rewards the self-reliant owner." - Buccaneer
	0

11-26-2009, 01:55 AM	#23
Weldangrind Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sardis, BC, Canada Posts: 25,977	waynec, I believe that the 3/4" discrepancy and the wheel offset is all due to the swingarm. Adding a spacer to the axle won't solve either problem if the swingarm is already bent. My theory (and that's all this is) is that if the swingarm is mounted without a spacer and is forced to accomodate the axle, the axle position won't be square with the quad. Once that happens, the swingarm would either need to be straightened or replaced to correct the issue. Not that I would. Pete, I'm with you on the jig. I also agree that he 3/4" discrepancy could just be tolerance stack-up. All that said, I still love it. __________________ Weldangrind "I figure I'm well-prepared for coping with a bike that comes from the factory with unresolved issues and that rewards the self-reliant owner." - Buccaneer
	0

12-02-2009, 08:16 PM	#28
Weldangrind Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sardis, BC, Canada Posts: 25,977	You're absolutely right about the splines. I have mine torqued beyond belief to eliminate slop, which means that the splines aren't cut properly. I like the idea of applying epoxy as a filler between the hub and shaft; as you say, it'll come apart with heat if necessary. Please post a photo once you've mounted the wheel to your new hub extension. __________________ Weldangrind "I figure I'm well-prepared for coping with a bike that comes from the factory with unresolved issues and that rewards the self-reliant owner." - Buccaneer
	0

11-24-2009, 01:57 PM	#17
waynec Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Ottawa Posts: 119	Yes I have checked the measurement and can only offer this. Hub to hub is 22" In a perfect world the middle would make 11" intersect the lower shock mount. It does not. It falls just on the inside of the nut holding the shock...which on my machine makes it the right side of the shock mount, when viewed from the rear. The spacer you needed will soon be on mine, but it appears to me as though it will only result in aligning (taking the bend out of) the mount on the left more than shifting anything. The shock currently leans a little to the right so maybe the shim will assist with that. I think the axle is badly made leaving it off kilter....but is there perhaps some play associated with the 2 lock nuts on the right side of the axle???....waynec
	0

11-24-2009, 04:36 PM	#18
waynev Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 1,097	Well i'll be damned, upon futher measurement mine too is off 3/4" to the right. Off the front chassis to each front wheel there is a 1/4" difference so i can adjust that with the rod ends so in total the rear axle needs to go to the left 1/2", my chain does line up perfectly and the bike tracks straight when going straight so i think i will leave mine for now.
	0

11-25-2009, 10:20 PM	#20
waynec Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Ottawa Posts: 119	Yes...i did not understand. I have measured and there is a 3/4 inch discrepancy in the distance axle to axle. I did not see any clear resolution so I took the rear assembly apart and installed the spacers as you did. My chain adjustment was already near its limit so I also took a link out of the chain. When all was back together again and lined up as best I could the same 3/4 inch difference existed still........ The small shift of the assembly due to the spacers did straighten the leaning shock and brought my slight chain misalignment to perfect and also made my wheel offset just that little bit worse...cause ,of course, those adjustment took the axle the opposite way for that problem....waynec
	0

11-25-2009, 11:25 PM	#22
waynec Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Ottawa Posts: 119	My frame looks like the welder was on crack. The assorted tabs are all askew.. the reinforcing plates are all on slightly diifferent planes. I am with you in that I will space out my rear wheel so I get similar cornering in both directions and be done with it...........still love it anyway even with all its ?????/.....waynec
	0

12-02-2009, 07:29 PM	#26
waynec Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Ottawa Posts: 119	In anticipation of closing this issue and thread I am posting 2 pics to display my hub extention. 4 plywood.....not hardwood....discs, epoxied together with 41/2 inch 3/8 bolts through the hub and clamped 'til epoxy cured. Next day 2 wraps of 6oz glass. Total extension 3 3/8 inch. I hope to notice superior stability and more consistent cornering when comparing left & right turns. Based on the posts my alignment was the worst of anyone. I just could not stand to leave it as bad as it was. I had planned to use m10 fine thread bolts but these are impossible to find where the thread runs full to the bolt head. The wheels will be mounted with Nylocks. Some may disagree but I am concerned about the amount of free play between the splines of the hub and axle. My sons 4trax...very old had the hub splines strip clean out this year. Moisture, rust and wear as a result of excessive free play. This hub was as loose as his 25 year old machine. Anyway, I thickened some epoxy and dressed the splines prior to assembly. Its rock solid now and if I ever need it off, epoxy will soften with heat. I expect it will result in a much longer life.
	0

12-02-2009, 08:15 PM	#27
waynev Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 1,097	3-3/8" off, holy crap.....how can it be off that far?, mine is only about 3/4". I hope your spacer holds up, and i must say you win the big ba$$s competition.
	0

12-02-2009, 11:23 PM	#29
TurboT Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Surrey, B.C., Canada Posts: 2,185	That is rather ingenious! Well done. I'm happy to hear it is giving you a more stable ride.
	0

12-03-2009, 06:58 PM	#30
waynec Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Ottawa Posts: 119	waynev.......after your observation pertaining to the merit of some nuts related to my wheel hub fix.... I started to 2nd guess myself.... and added another 4 wraps of 6oz glass......I figure...epoxy bond, mechanical compression of the bolts, reinforcing benefit of the bolts thru the structure and the stabilization of the entire assembly with the solid wrap around the perimeter. Might work..... I am as confounded by the amount of discrepancy in my wheels as anyone. If by chance, a beast owner could measure the distance between their rear hubs. My inside hub to hub measurment is 28 inches on the button. If you use a small tape you can run it through one of the holes in the brake disc which allows the tape to stay in line. I would like to rule out 'wrong axle'......thx....waynec
	0