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Is it better or worse with the choke engaged, and is the filter clean?
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Much worse. Filter is brand new (jetcone style ebay power filter)
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It's probably too rich then. Does it start from cold even in that weather, no choke? Assuming the exhaust isn't plugged up (which I'd check first), I'd look at putting a smaller pilot jet in it, maybe two sizes down, and then try adjusting the mixture screw from there.
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Only started it cold once, took a lot of spinning but that also might just have been the fact that I just filled the carb for the first time. The exhaust shouldn't be plugged since just built the whole thing. It's slightly longer than the original but shouldn't be long enough to restrict. Dunno what happened, might be the ignition is faulty because after I did a couple figure eights in the yard and parked it, it hasn't done a thing, the entire electric system is dead as a stone. Gonna investigate once I have the time.
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https://www.customfighters.com/forum...437a64b309.jpg
Long time no ocean... Lost all motivation towards this project after getting it outside and finding out it won`t run properly, did other stuff in the garage messing it up real good then didn`t have the resolve to clean up so for the last couple months this thing`s been sittin out in the rain. Finally got a spark to clean up the garage along with a few upgrades so eventually got the quad back on the table as well. https://www.customfighters.com/forum...437a6530ba.jpg Since I finally had a view to the underside without getting on all fours (ha ha...) I decided the first issue I should tackle is the rattling exhaust... https://www.customfighters.com/forum...437a65a577.jpg ...sooo one chimney bracket coming up when I get off work tomorrow, can`t use an angle grinder at this hour as that would wake up the kids. Oh, also found out a couple issues with the not revving thing. First is you don`t need a special screwdriver after all to get to the downwards pointing air screw, you just need to get at it from the right side of the vehicle. https://www.customfighters.com/forum...446d263836.gif Yea I know... Still need one of them ratchet bit driver wrench thingies but luckily I have one. The airscrew was open for 2 1/4 turns, it is now opened a full three revolutions, after I get the chimney braced and rid of the resonance rattle gonna wheel it back out and see if that did a thing. OH! And I STILL have not received the rear brake parts I ordered in January but that`s actually partly my fault now as the package has reached the seller but I told them to hold the re-sending till I figure out what else I still need (about the last place to get them as they`ve stopped making these long ago) That`s been at least about a month though, should probly send them an email tomorrow... |
If any of you guys reading this knows about carb tuning any help would be appreciated.
Current setup: Keihin PZ30 pumpy carb Jetcone style free flow air filter Needle was set on the top slot so needle was all the way in Main jet has no markings on it so cannot tell but according to the internet it might be a 108 Symptoms: The quad starts fine and idles fine but does not throttle. With the choke halfway engaged I can sort of get it to rev to about half throttle but anything past that it just sputters. I have tried adjusting the air screw from all the way in to dropping from threads, about three turns out seems to be the right place but overall it has oddly little affect no matter what setting it is in. I have now set the needle all the way up to see if that did a thing, going to reassemble everything and possibly report back in a while. Any ideas welcome. |
Based on what I've found so far it looks like my pilot jet is probly too big.
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I have numbered drills all the way up to 80, which are very useful for determining mystery jet sizes. Once you find the bit that fits the jet, you can measure the bit with a vernier caliper to determine the jet size in mm. Mikuni jets are sized in mm, but Keihin jets have their own measurement system. The numbers they use are about 10% larger than the mm measurement.
Since you backed the pilot mixture screw out to three turns, it doesn't point to a slow jet that is too big. The choke helping things also doesn't point to a too-big slow jet. Rather than move the slider clip from top to bottom, I encourage you to move the clip one groove at a time and see if it gets better or worse. I've had terrible luck with those filters. I like foam pod filters the best. The type I use has an angled neck and is normally priced at around $7.00 USD including shipping. The carb I use accepts a 42mm pod filter. |
I forgot to add that the entire neighborhood absolutely reeks of petrol when I try running the thing to the point of making me very nauseous. Moving the needle did diddly squat, neither did removing the air filter. Also turning the mixture screw had very little effect no matter what setting it was in but three turns out was kinda sorta better than the rest. Not a big fan of those filters either but it was the only one I could find with the correct size throat and a suitable angle to clear the crossbar over it. Gonna yank the carb today and take it with me to the city this saturday to see if I can find somewhere with suitable jets, only bout a fiver to see what a smaller pilot does.
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https://www.customfighters.com/forum...97b7bc61d4.jpg
https://www.customfighters.com/forum...97b7bceb7f.jpg The carb is kicking my butt enough to lose all motivation again so decided to sod it for a while and concentrate on something else, so bough some stainless angle and flat stock and made these... https://www.customfighters.com/forum...aeb32e42a5.jpg ...then used those to make these... https://www.customfighters.com/forum...ae8d802c01.jpg ...to fit these. Still needs work but can`t use fine tuning equipment like a sledge hammer or an angle grinder at night. Oh and probly would need to wire them in as well, Ive already done the relay and the handlebar switch earlier so making them work shouldn`take too long. |
Nice work! One of these days I'm going to make a similar bender for my press.
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Best damn tool I've ever made, makes doing the bends super easy. Literally took me about three minutes to make the second one. Welds ain't pretty as this was supposed to be TIG welded so nothing's beveled but that went south quick so dug out the MIG rig instead.
Trying to get back to this but need to wait til the turn of the month to be able to order a new carb and an original air filter as I reeeally don't have the resolve to battle with a carb that's not playing ball... |
https://www.customfighters.com/forum...096644d562.jpg
Well at least SOMETHING in this bloody contraption works as planned, makes the original headlight seem like a bad joke. Which got me thinking, any of you guys have a general idea about the charging system output these things usually have? Wouldn't wanna get stranded in the middle of the night without a kickstart. |
https://www.customfighters.com/forum...222e1376ce.jpg
Front suspension orangefication in process. Takes a LOOT more paint than I expected as you shoot most of it past the pipes (and I'm pretty sure the first bottle didn't have a full fill) Need to get more to get the steering knuckle and the hub painted too, luckily those are less visible so don't suppose it matters much if I can't find the exact same shade (NOT driving to the city just to get that exact paint) And of course rinse and repeat on the far side... |
https://www.customfighters.com/forum...2ae4f41b03.jpg
Marginally better, just need to get a new rubber around the lower balljoint as it was so crispy it tore away when I peeled off the masking tape. Now would somebody else please do the other side and the rear hubs, pls? |
https://www.customfighters.com/forum...57dfe94546.jpg
Well this wasn`t exactly a pleasant find while taking the right side front suspension apart... https://www.customfighters.com/forum...5848f04227.jpg Luckily it sticks to magnet so it`s made of some (poor) form of steel... https://www.customfighters.com/forum...5848f0a425.jpg Not perfect but good enough. https://www.customfighters.com/forum...5848eeb863.jpg Apparently the right front corner has received a proper crash at some point. I reckon that too can be bended back when given the opportunity to make some noise in the garage. The lower arm however might actually need replacing... I didn`t take pictures of it but the balljoint is totally gone and the whole arm appears bent as well. They do sell the joint separately but I haven`t yet figured out how to swap it as the original one seems to be hammer forged in place so a bit unsure how to get it out without irreversably damaging the swingarm. https://www.customfighters.com/forum...5848ee4c26.jpg The whole garage was getting covered with orange dust so decided to add a bit more flare to the color scheme :hehe: Weird stuff that hitemp paint, dries up almost instantly after spraying it on. Apologies for the differing size pictures, for the life of me cannot figure out why my phone is doing that even though I`m shoting every picture withe the exact same settings. |
Did you get rid of that cat?
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Nah man still there, just moved it under the engine when I rerouted the chimney. They do take emissions from these at inspection and wasn't sure if it'll pass without so decided to leave it in.
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Interesting. Any idea what they use as a standard for emissions testing? Can't be too many like yours on the road.
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Sorry no idea where they came up with the numbers, guess some big wig at EU pulled them out of his bum or sth. AFAIK they only monitor the NOx emission on these. And yea not a whole lot on the streets. There are two ways you can register an ATV here, first and the more popular version is to reg them as a "tractor-quad" which assimilates the vehicle with a farm tractor, there are pros and cons like top speed limitation, license classification (you can ride one with a tractor license) and the insurance cost is lower, these usually are the AWD with winch type quads. The other version is what I have and that is a "light four wheeler" that requires either an unrestricted motorcycle- or a car license, there's no top speed or power limitations but the insurance tends to be on the high side (don't have one yet as I bought this as taken off traffic use and have kept it as such during the rebuild) There's two quads on the streets in my town and both are yellow-plates (tractors) so these speed demon types are in fact quite very rare.
Gonna be interesting learning to ride without leaning as I'm told on a good day, downhill with the wind on your back after a light meal these things can reach 100km/h. |
AAAAAAAAARGHHHH!!!!!ยก!!!1!!!!
This blasted contraption is SERIOUSLY messing with my zen!!! No matter what I do I cannot get it to rev past five-is thousand rpm!!! Maybe it's the jetting, swapped jetting, did absolutely nothing. Maybe it's the pod filter, removed the filter, did absolutely nothing. Maybe it's the carb, shelled out on a second brand new OEM carb, still absolutely nothing!!! No matter what I do the symptoms remain exactly the same, starts right away, idles like a champ but when I give it the beans it goes rrrapapapapa til 5k rpm and fluctuates up and down in that area. The only things I can think of anymore are; either it's electrical BUT: wiring harness brand new, CDI brand new, coil brand frikken new! OR the homemade exhaust is not flowing enough thus resulting in an incomplete flush cycle at revs. Guess the next thing is to reassemble the front suspension partly using old parts to wheel the thing out and see if it revs with first only the front part of the exhaust and then completely without it. If that does it, gonna order a new poop tube and be done with it. I haven't checked the valve clearances but since it starts right away and doesn't knock they should be good right? AFAIK valve lash cannot prevent the engine from revving. Another thing is the company I've been waiting the rear brake parts from. I contacted them at 3.6. if they'd kindly re-send me the package and added a few more things I need, have not received a reply. I went to their website and it says there that they will be closed from 4th of june til 17th of MAY! I'm reeeeally hoping that's a typo or I'll be waiting for my parts for another YEAR!!! Starting to seem I'm gonna need to order the parts from elsewhere but the problem is these things are getting pretty rare so I need to collect parts from here there and elsewhere paying shipping fees from each part separately at the same time tying precious few resources into parts I've already paid for, and then try to get the original purchase refunded once they eventually open again. Completely DONE with rebuilding this thing, I wanna RIDE!!! |
Just pulled the plug to confirm what I was already dead sure about. I cannot post a picture as my allowed server space is currently at capacity so need to clean up there but I can tell you in my years I have never pulled a plug that black and sooty off a four stroke engine so based on that I`d say if that`s running lean then I`m the sultan of Brunei.
The next question is WHY since I`m running an OEM equivalent carb?!?!?! |
I think they do that to get around emissions on exports. Think its why all the adjustments are plugged up too.
Friggin eh... I miss the old style gas cans... I spill way more fuel with the spill proof ones then the old style spouts.... recently just stopped using the spill proof spouts all together and just straight dump it in from the can. |
Save me from reading all of the older posts; what jetting are you running now? Where is the clip? What is the pilot mixture screw set at?
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BTW, set the valves. It never hurts.
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Quote:
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I would guess that both are on the small size. What does the plug look like? Does it rev past 5k rpm, but not under load, and if not, does it act like it's misfiring?
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As stated the plug is black and sooty. It revs to 5 ish k rpm at about half throttle, anything over that it feels like it's either misfiring or just drowning on excess petrol. The exhaust fumes reek of gasoline. Same symptoms when trying to ride (albeit haven't ridden more than 100m back and forth on our home street as I currently have no brakes)
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I'd see if the cat is plugged. That'd be my guess.
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I pieced out the exhaust when I rerouted it, I had a good look through the cat and it seemed unobstructed. When I get home from work gonna try running it first without the muffler then without the whole exhaust, if that doesn't help gonna order #30 and #25 pilots for the Keihin pumpy and fit that back on.
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Is it possible you got a bad cdi, even new they aren't always perfect. If you're not getting good enough spark, it may not be burning all the fuel you're pumping in.
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Anything`s possible at this point but a whole bunch of symptoms point to the mixture being way too rich:
-sooty plug -hesitating coming off idle -misfire/bogging past half throttle -idle mixture screw does next to nothing. Fully closed the engine dies, other than that setting has little effect -exhaust fumes reek of petrol Based on my studies of late ALL of these symptoms can be explained by a too big pilot jet, and remedied by fitting in a smaller one. the kids made sure I never made it to the garage to try running the quad without the exhaust but based on my findings so far I`m fairly certain the answer here is a smaller pilot jet, which I will be ordering once I send this post. Results to be reported come next weekend. |
From looking at your pictures it looks like the carb has a good lean to it. Possible the float may need a little adjustment. I recently was having issue tuning my carb because it was running super rich at idle. Turns out the float was set to high.
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Has to be a picture thing as it actually sits fairly straight. After about an hour of interneting the smallest N424-21 pilot jet I could find locally was a #30 so ordered one of those, if that doesn`t help gotta dig into the exhaust side to see if the problem lies there after all. If the jet doesn`t help gonna get deep into the float level too but two differen carbs have now given me the exact same problems so I`m betting it`s either jetting or exhaust
EDIT: went to check, OK it actually DOES lean forward. Note taken, will investgate. |
Hey guys sorry no pictures this time as my phone decided, completely without asking me (once again) to switch the picture size from 1mp to 16mp and I just can`t be arsed to go through the pain of resizing every pic...
Here`s what`s happened since the last time: -I made a jig to hold the 30mm "Keihin" pumpy at a 13 degree forward lean -I measured the float level and discovered it to be too high -I adjusted the float level lower -I reassembed the quad only to discover it had no effect to the running issue -I took the ebay pod filter under close examination (read: tore it apart) -I discovered that for some reason the passage from the filter element gets choked to 27mm before the carb (no small wonder it was going SCHOOOP at WOT) -I then crushed said pod filter with a hydraulic press. -I adjusted the carb to the best of my ability, it`s still no Ferrari but it`s definitely revving higher without a filter -I ordered a new rear brake disc, pads and a front balljoint from France Still do do: -Straighten the rear axel -Order a set of balljoint sleeves from ebay (seems to be the only place that has the correct size) -Adjust valve lash (if only I`d have a measure to adjust them to) -Find somewhere I can order a vacuum hose nipple for the emission valve to be drilled onto the carb boot -Take it through inspection -RIDE! |
.08 mm for the intake and exhaust.
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Much obliged.
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Guys I think I just found the reason why the quad isn't revving... Holy frick never ever seen valves be so far past negative both screws came out two full turns before I could get a .10mm leaf in between!!! I've now set them so that a .10 will not go in but a .05 will slide through without much resistance. Having seen that I'm kinda surprised it ran at all. Wouldn't be surprised if they've never been set before.
Test run possibly tomorrow, next weekend at the latest. |
Some progress I suppose... Just tried the quad, the engine note is completely different, I can now hear the valves clattering away which was completely absent before. The engine also sounds somehow sharper than before. The problem is the rev problem is still there BUT what's different from before is now when I give it throttle it's going PANG PANG PANG PANG like a damn six shooter. Guess it's time to try the original idle jet... Oh, did I mention I dropped the damn needle clip on the asphalt and can't find it.
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Small victories today. I now have brake lights at the foot pedal, the fire had melted the old wires and the switch itself seemed a bit iffy so I swapped in a new one cause, you know, perfectly normal to have a couple on standby right? I also finally fitted a petcock, no more fuel spills when faffing about with the carb. I used one meant for a Suzuki PV50 as that was available in shelf at Motonet and it has the res option which I blocked off for now but if I decide to fit an auxiliary tank later it`s good to have the infra fitted already. I also swapped the idle jet back to the unmarked original and oiled&fitted the double layer foam filter. What a sh**show that was, the elbow on the carb is so narrow the oiled (and several times cleaned) boot kept slipping off every time I got the hose clamp nice and tight, finally ended up using a ziptie. Gotta keep an eye on that as I`m kinda expecting it to pop off sooner than later.
More testing tomorrow after I go get more go-juice. Stupid question: a pushrod engine cannot "jump a tooth" right? Cause if I can`t get the thing running fiddling with the carb I`m all out of ideas. |
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