Hey Weld. Look what might be coming to North America

[katoranger]

As usual, the US gets the leftovers.

[SpudRider]

As we all know, the Chinese imported a lot of motorcycles into the United States a few years ago. That wasn't surprising, since the U.S.A. represents such a large, potential market. However, QLink and Zongshen soon developed a very large surplus of unsold motorcycles, which stayed in the warehouses for years. :( I think the Chinese are now reluctant to import more motorcycles into the United States, fearing the same situation might occur, especially with the current economy. The market for Chinese motorcycles is much more competitive, and stable, in many other parts of the world.

Spud

[Junglebiker]

What do you want to know, Weld? I work on these things all the time, got about 12-15 of them in my immediate area, some water cooled, some aircooled, some have roofs some don't. One has a little cab on it. I was really skeptical when they first started showing up, but I have to say that they have worked a lot better than I was expecting. None of the ones I see have tilt beds, and all are made by Zongshen rather than Lifan.

They are a little bit goofy, small car brakes on the back axle, tiny bike brakes on the front wheel, 5 speeds forward or reverse, (the ones here have a standard 200cc, pushrod, single lobe cam FML163 engine (or whatever it's designation is) with a 5 speed tranny, (but with a goofy circular shift pattern n-1-2-3-4-5-n-1-2-3-4-5-n-1-2-3-4-5-etc., I hated that pattern so much that when I took one of them and put it into a bike I actually put an old Honda tranny in it), and a 90 degree shaft drive that slips over the standard output shaft and bolts on to the ouside of the case. Reverse is engineered into theis 90 degree drive unit, hence 5 speeds forward or reverse, and it will pull any of them from a stop, at least the ones here will, though some clutch slipping is required in 4th and 5th, though not as much as you might expect. The ones here are WAAAAY over sprung, big leaf springs and 2 sets of coil springs on some of them, others just have big leafs and 1 set of coils. I've got a dead one that I was thinking to make into a trailer. 3 sides of the bed will fold down, making a flatbed, but don't try to ride it that way, the railing on the side almost touch the ground when the sides are folded down, riding over a bump would cause them to ground out.

The ones here have a different rear axle, doesn't look as strong as the South American ones--the ones here remind me of the rear axle from a Model A Ford, but miniaturised, you know, all bolts together, left tube, right tube, centre member. I've been meaning to look into what it would take to build a custom short axle just by bolting together a centre section and two short side tubes if that makes any sense. Might be cool in a go-cart. Definitely be huge brakes and wheels for a go-cart...

Dunno what the tires are made out of, but they never seem to show any signs of wear...

[Weldangrind]

Wow! Awesome info! I'd love to get my hands on the 90 degree shaft drive / reverse mechanism; I would build the rest.

It sounds like the Model A style rear axle has dissimilar axle tube lengths, which makes sense (and yes, your description helps me to visualize it perfectly). I would hate the rotary pattern as well; can you tell us more about installing the Honda tranny in the Zong?

[katoranger]

With that description I would guess a top speed of about 30mph. I think it would be alot of fun here in town. I can go everywhere at that speed.

[Weldangrind]

That bolt-on reverse / shaft drive mechanism got me thinking. I found this one so far: http://www.made-in-china.com/showroo...-Tricycle.html

[Junglebiker]

Yep, that's pretty much exactly what it looks like, though I've never seen one with that cute little heal/toe shifter on it--the ones here all have a long hand lever on them that crosses over and comes out on the right side so that you never find yourself trying to disengage the clutch and shift into reverse with the same hand at the same time. I know one guy who went through the trouble of moving the forward/reverse lever to the left side because on the right it gets int he way of the kickstarter, but it means that he has to reach across the tank with his right hand to get the clutch or to shift from forward to reverse, or just make sure he's in neutral before changing direction. It's awkward, and the heel-toe shifter would have solved his problem, though I'm embarrassed to admit that I never thought of it until now.

Yes on the unequal length axles--the diff sits off to the left just a bit, straight back from the output shaft on the 90 degree/reverse drive unit. BTW, the splines on the output shaft of the reverse box/90 degree drive are the same as the splines on the engine output shaft--I knwo one guy who has taken one of these engines and turned it sideways to put into his go-cart, (turning it sideways helps him get the overall length down a bit), and plans to run a sprocket on the 90 degree drive output shaft. I'll try to get some photos when he is done with it.

The axles are pretty substantial looking, but I don't know for sure what kind of steel they are made out of and if I remember correctly, they have only 6 big splines at the diff end, plus the input shaft on the diff is again the same size/spline count as the output shaft on a 163 engine, so the diffs are not terribly substantial. The brake drums are about 8 inches in diameter, all mechanical, no hydraulics. They look big for motorcycle or ATV brakes, maybe they were purpose built/designed for these things? OR maybe there's a car in China that is still the way Ford originally intended, "all metal from pedal to wheel".

[Weldangrind]

I guess I haven't wrapped my mind around these trike trucks yet; I still don't understand the controls. You say that the reverse lever is on the right, so is the gearshift in the normal location? I can't figure out how a heel / toe reverse lever would work being so close to a shifter. :?:

[Junglebiker]

Hmmmm, how to explain? The heel/toe shifter on the reverse box would end up being 4 or 5 inches above the shifter shaft--also, the gear shift on these things is really goofy, it's a heel/toe shifter, but it has a 4 or 5 inch long shaft that fits on the original motorcycle style shifter shaft.

Let me put it this way--in order to clear the reverse box/90 degree drive, the shifter has an extension built into it that in effect extends the shifter shaft another 4 or 5 inches. I call it a "goofy" system because constant shifting causes the portion of the shifter that fits over the shift shaft to get loose over time. The problem is so bad, that I often weld a piece of steel to the frame in order to support the shifter way out at the end. This is a good idea except for one thing--these engines are mounted to a pretty substantial engine mount that in turn is rubber mounted to the frame. So, when I put a shifter support out there on the frame, the shifter still works loose because the rubber mounted engine is constantly moving the shifter against the support. It's less complicated than I think I'm making it sound. If you are seriously interested, I'll have to try to get some photos some time.

[Weldangrind]

I'm certainly interested! If you have the time for any close-up pics, I'd be grateful.

I understand the elongated shifter problem. It sounds like it would benefit from an outboard bearing or bushing (even made from DOM steel with a zerk). My TW200 has such a long countershaft (to accomodate the giant rear wheel) that there is an oil-fed bearing in the countershaft cover. I expect that bad things would happen if that bearing wasn't there.

Do you need to hold the reverse lever to maintain reverse, or does it actually "shift" into reverse?

[katoranger]

I want to see pictures too. This may open up some options for reverse gears using lifan engines.

[Junglebiker]

Yeah, I'm familiar with the TW200, there are a few of those around here, too. Just imagine what it might be like if the support bearing on the end of your TW's output shaft were mounted rigidly to the frame of the bike and the engine was rubber mounted and you start to understand the problems I was/am having with supporting the shifter shaft. I'll try to get some photos today, and will send them from my home computer tonight, (I'm at work right now and have no way to move pictures from my camera to my work computer.) Obviously the best solution would be to mount my support bearing to the same rubber mounted engine cradle/mount that the engine is mounted in, so that everything can vibrate together, but that takes time to engineer and build and most of my customers are primarily interested in spending as little as possible, and, it must be said, even though I don't like my solution, it really has worked, and better than the original, just not as perfectly as I would like.

It really does shift into reverse, (no holding required) there is some sort of mechanical shifting of gears that happens and it appears to be the same ratio as forward, so ostensibly you should be able to run it in forward or reverse, though I imagine there must be some sort of idler arrangement in the reverse position that might make it inherently weaker than the forward position (?). If I have the time I might pull apart a reverse box just to see what's inside of it--I've always been curious about it, just not quite enough to actually pull on apart. Still, I have a few extra ones laying around, maybe it's time.

[Junglebiker]

Okay here we go. This is what I refer to as a "Model A" style rear axle--also note the big leaf springs, the small helper coil springs and the mounts for another set of coils welded to the axle--the ones I see here are almost all like this:



Here's one of the local water-cooled ones--as you can see, a bit different from the South American model, this has the fuel tank under the bed and has a little bit longer wheelbase. The engine is under the rider's (driver's?) seat. The shift lever with the black ball on top is the FWD/REV selector lever. Also note the automotive style handbrake, which the air-cooled ones (and I imagine the South American ones as well), don't have.



Here's the engine area of one of the air cooled ones, the reverse lever is the one tucked in close to the engine--it is currently in FWD. Also note the odd kick start lever--this is another problem area as these get loose with regular usage. This particular example is currently missing the idler gear for the electric starter, so the kick starter is being used several times a day. This is a working machine, one that gets very little maintenance and lots of abuse.



Here's the reverse lever in the REV position. Also take a look at how the engine is mounted--it is mounted on top of a rubber mounted subframe and the rubber mounts can be seen in this photo.



From the other side. Here you can see that this is one of the ones that I've modified with a support under the shift lever. The support is under a layer of dusty grease and so is a little hard to pick out, but it is there. You can also see the reverse box/90 degree drive. I wonder now if there might not be 2 different styles of these--I have definitely seen ones with a splined shaft sticking out for a shift lever, but this one looks like it has a shaft that slides in and out of the casing rather than rotating. You can see the rest of the rubber mounts from here, btw--they are huge, I am sure that they were originally designed for some other application.



Now I'm off to find a place to put some photos of a coupel of my hybrid bikes.



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[Junglebiker]

Here's a couple more photos I found. The first is one of the local style water cooled trikes with the bows and tarp on the back. I've never seen one of these actually in use, but they did all come from the factory with bows and a tarp. For a little while the workshop where I work was selling these, (we bought a small lot of trikes at an auction, they had all been sitting for a long time, some had parts missing, etc. but we managed to get most of them going again, the rest we used for parts):



And here's the only one I've ever seen with an enclosed cab on it:



Anybody interested in the Honda/Zongshen hybrid next to it can go look in the "others" forum.

[katoranger]

Weld, I am thinking that a golf cart axle and springs would work well. Might need to add a leaf or get some from the work versions.