Apollo Commander 200 F-N-R Shift Lag Normal?

BluegrassPicker · 01-02-2021, 10:35 PM

Hi, I recently bought a new Apollo Commander 200. Nice machine.

The question I have is that when shifting from Neutral to Forward or Neutral to Reverse there is a definite lag where nothing happens. It seems that I have to feather the gas a bit to get it to kick in and only after a delay of about a count to five or so.

The dealer says that a lag is normal and that you'll hear a click when it kicks into gear. I hear the click but only after the delay of the lag and slightly feathering the gas.

Is this normal for these F-N-R trannys? Do I need to put some hours on it in the hopes that it will shift more responsively? Perhaps an adjustment? Or is something wrong?

My only experience with a F-N-R quad was several years ago with a relative's Polaris, and it shifted right now, every time with no lag whatsoever.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

BluegrassPicker

miatawnt2b · 01-02-2021, 11:27 PM

definitely not normal to have to feather the gas for it to "kick in"

I have three F-N-R machines and the ones that are functioning normally are very solid. move the lever, it goes into gear. I do have one that is a bit on the flaky side. It doesn't want to go into neutral easily.

Sponge1971 · 01-03-2021, 08:07 PM

Does your ATV have ‘GY6’ type engine?... with the scooter type belt drive CVT?
If so, the lag/feathering is normal... sadly.
I have a Tao 200 Raptor and it does the same thing. It took me a while to finally understand why...
On a GY6, The centrifugal clutch is on the tranny final drive/gearbox input shaft... not the engine’s crank shaft.
When you FNR the gearshift, you do move something around in the gearbox... but, at engine idle... that tranny final drive/gearbox input shaft is not rotating... so, no ‘clunk’ happens.
Yes... this concept is kinda just like any ‘normal’ centrifugal engine clutched kids quad...
Except that with a GY6, the clutch is at the other end of a CVT pulley system... which (at idle) is set to lowest ‘gearing’ ratio. Sure the engine may be idling at 800-1000rpm... but the centrifugal clutch is only turning at, say... 500 rpm? (very probably less). You have to rev the engine enough, to bring up the CVT gearing ratio... to finally spin the clutch enough to engage (stock is usually 1000rpm CLUTCH rotation)...then, the tranny final drive/gearbox input shaft will spin... and, finally, ‘clunk’... the gearbox will align as selected.
This is an unavoidable GY6 ’feature’. About the only way to minimize this would be to: set your engine idle high enough to be near clutch engagement (not pleasant); find & install lower RPM clutch springs (good luck) or put heavier roller/sliders in the CVT variator, so that your ‘idle’ will spin the clutch closer to its engagement rpm... but, at a loss to low end torque.
I wish I could just “feather the gas a bit”.... I’m trying to squeeze all the torque I can out of my quad. With my 8g sliders.., I need to rev pretty high to engage a FNR shift... (it wasn’t as bad when it was stock 14? 16? rollers)... and there’s no hope now of ever barely-idling around quietly touring...

Hope this helps...

OH!... and compared to the Polaris... It’s tough to compare a ‘real’ ATV to what we have... let’s be honest here...
I strongly suspect that the Polaris had an engine type clutch with a real gearbox on the other end... no CVT in between. You selected the gear and (at worst) within a couple hundred rpm the gear shaft was spinning, smoothly engaging, and rolling... Heck, maybe the gear shaft spun, weakly, at idle... due to some inherent friction, or something, so that shifting (gear alignment) was instant, but still motion neutral due to weight too much for that friction, and engine still only idling, no solid clutch engagement.

miatawnt2b · 01-03-2021, 08:14 PM

yep, my bad, I didn't realize he had a CVT.

BluegrassPicker · 01-03-2021, 08:26 PM

Thank you very much, miatawnt2b and Sponge1971 for your replies.

Sponge1971, I think you pegged it. The owners' manual says I have a GY6 engine.

I was fiddling with the quad this morning and I noticed that when I selected R, the machine stayed in N. So I adjusted the linkage to make the lever on the tranny travel further which helped somewhat. In situations where the shift lever was in R but the tranny was not engaging in R even though the electronic display said R but actually free wheeled as if in N, I found that if I rolled the quad slightly with my foot or moved forward or backward on the seat shifting my weight causing the vehicle to move, the tranny would click into R and then function normally in that gear. My adjustment on the linkage did make shifting into F more positive and made the lag less lengthy almost changing from a count of five to a count of one or two.

I think I'll leave it as it is now and figure that the current condition is as near normal or is normal as it's going to get as long as I understand the procedures to make it all happen. Explaining it to the kids and getting them to operate it without grenading the tranny is probably going to be the hard part....

Thanks again to all for your replies. I sincerely appreciate it very much.

BluegrassPicker

Sponge1971 · 01-03-2021, 10:01 PM

oh wow.. that sucks.. you *really* have a shifting issue... not just the GY6 'feature'.

I never thought about 'shimmy-ing' the quad to get it to engage... instead of revving the engine. (I had an old truck with a few missing teeth on the flywheel. Occasionally had to rock it back & forth to find some teeth for the starter to grab)

Kind of sucks you *have* to do that though. It sounds like you are on the right track with linkage adjusting, keep at it. You must ensure gear engagement = selection. At least, with rocking, you can do this quietly. (no need to run the engine to roll gear shaft).

I don't know what I can offer, but I've essentially got the same thing you have... if a picture or video helps... let me know...

Good luck!

BluegrassPicker · 01-04-2021, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sponge1971

oh wow.. that sucks.. you *really* have a shifting issue... not just the GY6 'feature'.

I never thought about 'shimmy-ing' the quad to get it to engage... instead of revving the engine. (I had an old truck with a few missing teeth on the flywheel. Occasionally had to rock it back & forth to find some teeth for the starter to grab)

Kind of sucks you *have* to do that though. It sounds like you are on the right track with linkage adjusting, keep at it. You must ensure gear engagement = selection. At least, with rocking, you can do this quietly. (no need to run the engine to roll gear shaft).

I don't know what I can offer, but I've essentially got the same thing you have... if a picture or video helps... let me know...

Good luck!

Thanks, I'll probably call the dealer, but I'm afraid I'll get the "they all do that", and it's a 300 mile round trip in the middle of winter to have them look at it. It's a new rig, and they promised a warranty (in writing). He did say there was a slight lag when shifting, but he didn't say how much and didn't say anything about any reverse issues. If it ends up being "normal" I'd rather not have them tear into it with the chances of creating other issues in the process... I dunno.

I did find that if I put the tranny in F and then let it roll slightly forward and then pull back to R while it's still slightly rolling forward it engages into R immediately most of the time. Reminds me of my Jeep Wrangler when shifting the transfer case to low range, sometimes it refuses to shift unless I make the Jeep roll slightly then I'll try again and in it goes...

Thanks so much again,
BluegrassPicker

Sparrowhawk · 01-10-2021, 07:30 PM

My raptor 200 started doing that right before the clutch went real bad. Couldn't get it out of reverse while runnning. While the engine was off I could get it in all the gears. The clutch bell was blue from being overheated. Replaced it and problem solved. Sponge 1971 you're running 8 gram weights in your variator? Wow! I dropped down to 12 but didn't see too much difference. I guess I should go lower. What's it like with 8 gram weights? Also I'm looking forward to your report when you get the sprocket from overseas.

Sponge1971 · 04-03-2021, 12:25 PM

Sorry for the long delay... My Raptor has been at my BIL's all winter. (I had planned to plow with it... but nope ): ) So it was there for field play, instead. It works great with the lower weights, but it is 'revvy' for the speed.
I have received the smaller front sprockets, but have not installed yet. Sadly, it will be a while... as I have important renos to handle first... (and the ATV still has to come home too)

vett race · 05-18-2022, 08:15 PM

Man, thanks so much. Been driving myself crazy thinking something was wrong with the transmission. That it exactly what mine is doing. Thanks again for putting my mind at ease. Another question, do you know what the gear box oil and engine oil capacity is?

01-02-2021, 10:35 PM	#1
BluegrassPicker Join Date: Nov 2020 Posts: 3	Apollo Commander 200 F-N-R Shift Lag Normal? Hi, I recently bought a new Apollo Commander 200. Nice machine. The question I have is that when shifting from Neutral to Forward or Neutral to Reverse there is a definite lag where nothing happens. It seems that I have to feather the gas a bit to get it to kick in and only after a delay of about a count to five or so. The dealer says that a lag is normal and that you'll hear a click when it kicks into gear. I hear the click but only after the delay of the lag and slightly feathering the gas. Is this normal for these F-N-R trannys? Do I need to put some hours on it in the hopes that it will shift more responsively? Perhaps an adjustment? Or is something wrong? My only experience with a F-N-R quad was several years ago with a relative's Polaris, and it shifted right now, every time with no lag whatsoever. Thanks in advance for any advice. BluegrassPicker
	0

01-03-2021, 08:07 PM	#3
Sponge1971 Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 13	Does your ATV have ‘GY6’ type engine?... with the scooter type belt drive CVT? If so, the lag/feathering is normal... sadly. I have a Tao 200 Raptor and it does the same thing. It took me a while to finally understand why... On a GY6, The centrifugal clutch is on the tranny final drive/gearbox input shaft... not the engine’s crank shaft. When you FNR the gearshift, you do move something around in the gearbox... but, at engine idle... that tranny final drive/gearbox input shaft is not rotating... so, no ‘clunk’ happens. Yes... this concept is kinda just like any ‘normal’ centrifugal engine clutched kids quad... Except that with a GY6, the clutch is at the other end of a CVT pulley system... which (at idle) is set to lowest ‘gearing’ ratio. Sure the engine may be idling at 800-1000rpm... but the centrifugal clutch is only turning at, say... 500 rpm? (very probably less). You have to rev the engine enough, to bring up the CVT gearing ratio... to finally spin the clutch enough to engage (stock is usually 1000rpm CLUTCH rotation)...then, the tranny final drive/gearbox input shaft will spin... and, finally, ‘clunk’... the gearbox will align as selected. This is an unavoidable GY6 ’feature’. About the only way to minimize this would be to: set your engine idle high enough to be near clutch engagement (not pleasant); find & install lower RPM clutch springs (good luck) or put heavier roller/sliders in the CVT variator, so that your ‘idle’ will spin the clutch closer to its engagement rpm... but, at a loss to low end torque. I wish I could just “feather the gas a bit”.... I’m trying to squeeze all the torque I can out of my quad. With my 8g sliders.., I need to rev pretty high to engage a FNR shift... (it wasn’t as bad when it was stock 14? 16? rollers)... and there’s no hope now of ever barely-idling around quietly touring... Hope this helps... OH!... and compared to the Polaris... It’s tough to compare a ‘real’ ATV to what we have... let’s be honest here... I strongly suspect that the Polaris had an engine type clutch with a real gearbox on the other end... no CVT in between. You selected the gear and (at worst) within a couple hundred rpm the gear shaft was spinning, smoothly engaging, and rolling... Heck, maybe the gear shaft spun, weakly, at idle... due to some inherent friction, or something, so that shifting (gear alignment) was instant, but still motion neutral due to weight too much for that friction, and engine still only idling, no solid clutch engagement. __________________ Tao Tao Raptor 200 Tao Tao DB 110 (Princess Auto) Mini-Bike Kit Last edited by Sponge1971; 01-03-2021 at 08:15 PM. Reason: Forgot to mention Polaris
	2

01-03-2021, 10:01 PM	#6
Sponge1971 Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 13	oh wow.. that sucks.. you really have a shifting issue... not just the GY6 'feature'. I never thought about 'shimmy-ing' the quad to get it to engage... instead of revving the engine. (I had an old truck with a few missing teeth on the flywheel. Occasionally had to rock it back & forth to find some teeth for the starter to grab) Kind of sucks you have to do that though. It sounds like you are on the right track with linkage adjusting, keep at it. You must ensure gear engagement = selection. At least, with rocking, you can do this quietly. (no need to run the engine to roll gear shaft). I don't know what I can offer, but I've essentially got the same thing you have... if a picture or video helps... let me know... Good luck! __________________ Tao Tao Raptor 200 Tao Tao DB 110 (Princess Auto) Mini-Bike Kit
	1

04-03-2021, 12:25 PM	#9
Sponge1971 Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 13	Sorry for the long delay... My Raptor has been at my BIL's all winter. (I had planned to plow with it... but nope ): ) So it was there for field play, instead. It works great with the lower weights, but it is 'revvy' for the speed. I have received the smaller front sprockets, but have not installed yet. Sadly, it will be a while... as I have important renos to handle first... (and the ATV still has to come home too) __________________ Tao Tao Raptor 200 Tao Tao DB 110 (Princess Auto) Mini-Bike Kit
	1

01-02-2021, 11:27 PM	#2
miatawnt2b Join Date: Dec 2020 Posts: 78	definitely not normal to have to feather the gas for it to "kick in" I have three F-N-R machines and the ones that are functioning normally are very solid. move the lever, it goes into gear. I do have one that is a bit on the flaky side. It doesn't want to go into neutral easily.
	0

01-03-2021, 08:14 PM	#4
miatawnt2b Join Date: Dec 2020 Posts: 78	yep, my bad, I didn't realize he had a CVT.
	0

01-03-2021, 08:26 PM	#5
BluegrassPicker Join Date: Nov 2020 Posts: 3	Thank you very much, miatawnt2b and Sponge1971 for your replies. Sponge1971, I think you pegged it. The owners' manual says I have a GY6 engine. I was fiddling with the quad this morning and I noticed that when I selected R, the machine stayed in N. So I adjusted the linkage to make the lever on the tranny travel further which helped somewhat. In situations where the shift lever was in R but the tranny was not engaging in R even though the electronic display said R but actually free wheeled as if in N, I found that if I rolled the quad slightly with my foot or moved forward or backward on the seat shifting my weight causing the vehicle to move, the tranny would click into R and then function normally in that gear. My adjustment on the linkage did make shifting into F more positive and made the lag less lengthy almost changing from a count of five to a count of one or two. I think I'll leave it as it is now and figure that the current condition is as near normal or is normal as it's going to get as long as I understand the procedures to make it all happen. Explaining it to the kids and getting them to operate it without grenading the tranny is probably going to be the hard part.... Thanks again to all for your replies. I sincerely appreciate it very much. BluegrassPicker
	1

01-10-2021, 07:30 PM	#8
Sparrowhawk Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 64	My raptor 200 started doing that right before the clutch went real bad. Couldn't get it out of reverse while runnning. While the engine was off I could get it in all the gears. The clutch bell was blue from being overheated. Replaced it and problem solved. Sponge 1971 you're running 8 gram weights in your variator? Wow! I dropped down to 12 but didn't see too much difference. I guess I should go lower. What's it like with 8 gram weights? Also I'm looking forward to your report when you get the sprocket from overseas.
	0

05-18-2022, 08:15 PM	#10
vett race Join Date: May 2022 Posts: 6	Man, thanks so much. Been driving myself crazy thinking something was wrong with the transmission. That it exactly what mine is doing. Thanks again for putting my mind at ease. Another question, do you know what the gear box oil and engine oil capacity is?
	0