Non-attentive industry

ikeus685 · 04-07-2021, 01:42 PM

I've noticed a distinct lack of attention from the Chinese and other nations lack of inventiveness to address the accessability for us shorter riders.. Our options
are extremly limited in choices. 2 Yamaha's, Royal Enfield Himalayan, lifan Xpect or the Magacian...
Reliability and quality control remains at its original specs and finish.
$5000.00, $2000.00 or $1300.00 rough pricing last is the Magician..
Its such a crying shame .. the Magician has a lot of potential but the builders show no desire to improve upon the original design.
So the choices are constrained by its cost and Iam leaning toward the xpect as I haven"t seen any write ups on Ricky Power sports doing anything to improve upon the magician.
What do you think?

franque · 04-07-2021, 02:26 PM

RPS buys and drop ships. People import what sells, and the Chinese build in massive quantities the things that sell, which keeps them cheap.

There are companies who supply Chinese-made bikes that tend to have more control of specs, but those bikes tend to be higher quality, and thus more expensive.

RPS doesn't give a crap, and not enough people would pay $3k for a slightly better bike that's a bit shorter. Manufacturers don't offer much outside of a standard range of sizes for different models, because motorcyclists are already outliers in a small market, at least in the US.

If you're truly short, and not just afraid of having only one foot down at a stop (an annoyingly prevalent fear that causes people to unnecessary and drastically alter the geometry of the bike, ruining the handling characteristics of the bike), you can buy boots with a taller heel, learn to ride the bike with only one foot touching the ground, and then look at modifying the suspension.

Most people don't want to adapt themselves somewhat to the machine, and they unnecessarily limit what they will ride, and diminish their potential riding experience.

Also, they sell plenty of cruisers that fit truly small people.

**JerryHawk250** · 04-07-2021, 02:28 PM

That's because RPS sells enough bike to satisfy there profit margin. If it ain't broke, don't fix it attitude and don't care what you think as long as they are selling.
On the other hand, Importers like American Lifan, Brozz 250(AKA PeaceSports) and Venom Motorsports listen to what the customer wants and have been delivering those upgrades.

Megadan · 04-07-2021, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikeus685

I've noticed a distinct lack of attention from the Chinese and other nations lack of inventiveness to address the accessability for us shorter riders.. Our options
are extremly limited in choices. 2 Yamaha's, Royal Enfield Himalayan, lifan Xpect or the Magacian...
Reliability and quality control remains at its original specs and finish.
$5000.00, $2000.00 or $1300.00 rough pricing last is the Magician..
Its such a crying shame .. the Magician has a lot of potential but the builders show no desire to improve upon the original design.
So the choices are constrained by its cost and Iam leaning toward the xpect as I haven"t seen any write ups on Ricky Power sports doing anything to improve upon the magician.
What do you think?

You think it's bad only for short people? Try being a very tall heavy rider sometime. There are bikes I physically can't ride because my knees get in the way of the bars. Every motorcycle I buy requires me to change out springs, shocks, etc, which is why I know so much about motorcycle suspension setup.

I know a gal who is 4'10 and 95lbs, and she rides a 600cc supersport that she can barely get a leg down on, even after it was lowered for her. She puts up with it because she likes to ride.

I get your frustration though.

Skyd · 04-07-2021, 03:26 PM

You could make this argument about almost anything, and it comes down to sales margins really. But for example taller riders, such as myself, are often limited to Adventure bikes or Motocross bikes for comfort out of the box. Luckily for us, there's plenty of aftermarket support, such as bar risers.

I'd like a mid sized cruiser but at 6'4" they're a little cramped. I could install forward controls though and some other minor adjustments and probably be reasonably comfortable.

My point is, sometimes it makes more sense to sell to the masses and let the aftermarket handle the rest.

ChillRider · 04-07-2021, 04:30 PM

Well, the guy in the pic surely knows a thing or two about bikes that don't fit... in his own words, it looks like he's riding a Honda Chappy

**JerryHawk250** · 04-07-2021, 04:40 PM

All I can say is adjust and adapt.

ikeus685 · 04-10-2021, 03:27 PM

Agree with you all.. But Iam stuck with short legs and an aging bod that doesn't appreciate hyper-flexing of hip and legs to straddle a bike.
My ol 74 Penton Hare Scrambler 250 I could mount no problem..
Any one remember this jewel?
For street riding my '16 750 Shadow with a 27" seat height is cool but, a real bitch at close to 600lbs to maneuver about.

ikeus685 · 04-10-2021, 03:57 PM

Yeah.. Greed, keeping those$$$ flowing force consumers with limited choices..large selection of colors and minor options for these commitee selected bikes in direct compitition with the industry leaders.......BS!
Japan has maintained a small footprint of off road capable bikes with seats under 32".. 3 or 4 bikes out of all off road machines they offer. I don't appreciate being limited in my selection but, will not cave a purchase a bike that on level ground i need to stand on a peg to climb up on.
What indicates a capable off road motorcycle? Are we incapable of venturing off road unless we have 10'' of suspension travel and 10 " of ground clearance?
Waaay too much industry gooble d gook advertising claims of what is acceptable for a dual purpose bike has been jammed down our throats. I do appreciate Lifan Xpect 200 offering..But thats really it.. 2 off road contenders for those who don"t appreciate a case of nose bleed when jumping on their Chinese bikes,

Boatguy · 04-12-2021, 03:36 AM

This could be crazy but what about mods?

If you’re shorter, you’re hopefully lighter too.

Drop the suspension travel? Smaller wheels?

Replace the seat itself with something lower to the frame?

I have no idea how feasible these ideas are, but just thinking out loud

XLsior · 04-12-2021, 04:07 AM

Fairly sure the domestic Asian market is filled with bikes and 2 wheel modes of transport for the smaller stature individual (aka native population) but the majority of those a 150cc or less. For that market the 250cc is considered already to big which has also some reason as to why we don't really see any incentive from China to go larger than 250cc. And as emissions and safety requirements are always being updated bikes are just getting heavier and larger.

Wild Dog · 04-12-2021, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XLsior

Fairly sure the domestic Asian market is filled with bikes and 2 wheel modes of transport for the smaller stature individual (aka native population) but the majority of those a 150cc or less. For that market the 250cc is considered already to big which has also some reason as to why we don't really see any incentive from China to go larger than 250cc. And as emissions and safety requirements are always being updated bikes are just getting heavier and larger.

But China does go bigger than 250, there quite a lot of models that are bigger than 250.

The issue is not about the CC because there are some 650 that have lower seat than some enduro 150cc. It's about the design enduro, adv, off road motorcycles are meant to have a high clearence which sadly for the shorter people translate to higher seats.

**JerryHawk250** · 04-12-2021, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Dog

But China does go bigger than 250, there quite a lot of models that are bigger than 250.

The issue is not about the CC because there are some 650 that have lower seat than some enduro 150cc. It's about the design enduro, adv, off road motorcycles are meant to have a high clearence which sadly for the shorter people translate to higher seats.

That is correct. They have 350, 400 and 500cc for sure. Venom will have a 350cc bike before the end of the year. Covid has slowed down processing times with EPA and NHTSA. From what I am told it will be a cruiser style bike which would have a low seat height. Dang-it, I guess I'll have to buy another bike. lol

RedCrowRides · 04-12-2021, 09:54 AM

Not bashing on anyone nor intending to start a firefight, but a "low seat height" on a serious Dual Sport / Enduro where ground clearance and suspension travel are both integral parts of the equation just isn't going to happen in any serious way with the result retaining any real capability.

The solution to this is don't "demand" a Dual Sport or Enduro perform a role that a Cruiser ( low seat height part of design) would be better at . Or, simply buy one of the what i call " 3/4 sized " Dual Sports / Enduro Bikes like the ORION 150 ,and several other similar Makes/ Models., and dont make unrealistic expectations for the 250 Enduro / Dual Sport class.,especially not from bargain priced Chinese Bikes whose extreme low price is predicated on producing a ton of them over a long term with minimal changes , which cost money to implement.

There are replacement wheels in 19/17 and 17/17 combos, lowering links, sliding fork tubes up in clamps , lowering the sag, shaving seat foam , different bar bends etc options out there ,and making the Bike fit your needs has always been and always will be a part of the dirt bike Ownership scene.

XLsior · 04-12-2021, 04:58 PM

I never said they don't make engines larger than 250. What I eluded to is that the Asian market is predominantly focused on selling units to the domestic population which makes lets say 90% only needing smaller bikes of 150cc or less. The original Honda CG125 basically proves this as even Honda themselves decided 125cc small bikes was all the segment needed.

Chinese dual sports in the western market is extremely niche segment that the profits are not really there for manufactures who then need to meet the required design rules and regulations to pass legal requirements. Trying to fit all that stuff on a smaller bike while maintaining performance is a juggling act the bean counters typically won't touch.

04-07-2021, 01:42 PM	#1
ikeus685 Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Coastal Oregon Posts: 154	Non-attentive industry I've noticed a distinct lack of attention from the Chinese and other nations lack of inventiveness to address the accessability for us shorter riders.. Our options are extremly limited in choices. 2 Yamaha's, Royal Enfield Himalayan, lifan Xpect or the Magacian... Reliability and quality control remains at its original specs and finish. $5000.00, $2000.00 or $1300.00 rough pricing last is the Magician.. Its such a crying shame .. the Magician has a lot of potential but the builders show no desire to improve upon the original design. So the choices are constrained by its cost and Iam leaning toward the xpect as I haven"t seen any write ups on Ricky Power sports doing anything to improve upon the magician. What do you think?
	1

04-07-2021, 02:26 PM	#2
franque Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Marseille, France -> Conakry, Guinea Posts: 1,481	RPS buys and drop ships. People import what sells, and the Chinese build in massive quantities the things that sell, which keeps them cheap. There are companies who supply Chinese-made bikes that tend to have more control of specs, but those bikes tend to be higher quality, and thus more expensive. RPS doesn't give a crap, and not enough people would pay $3k for a slightly better bike that's a bit shorter. Manufacturers don't offer much outside of a standard range of sizes for different models, because motorcyclists are already outliers in a small market, at least in the US. If you're truly short, and not just afraid of having only one foot down at a stop (an annoyingly prevalent fear that causes people to unnecessary and drastically alter the geometry of the bike, ruining the handling characteristics of the bike), you can buy boots with a taller heel, learn to ride the bike with only one foot touching the ground, and then look at modifying the suspension. Most people don't want to adapt themselves somewhat to the machine, and they unnecessarily limit what they will ride, and diminish their potential riding experience. Also, they sell plenty of cruisers that fit truly small people. Last edited by franque; 04-07-2021 at 03:26 PM.
	1

04-07-2021, 02:28 PM	#3
JerryHawk250 Moderator Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: Houma, La. Posts: 11,554	That's because RPS sells enough bike to satisfy there profit margin. If it ain't broke, don't fix it attitude and don't care what you think as long as they are selling. On the other hand, Importers like American Lifan, Brozz 250(AKA PeaceSports) and Venom Motorsports listen to what the customer wants and have been delivering those upgrades. __________________ 2023 Lifan Lycan 250 Chopper 2023 Venom Evader 2022 Lifan KPX250 2020 Kawasaki Vulcan S 2004 Honda ST 1300 2016 Black Hawk 250 (sold) Keihin PE30 carb,125 main,38 slow.Pod filter,ported & decked head 10:1 CR,Direct Ignition Coil,15/40Sprockets,NGK DPR8EIX-9,De-Cat,Dual Oil Cooler,Digital Cluster 2016 Cazador180 XL 2014 Coolster150 JerryHawk250.com My YouTube Channel
	3

04-07-2021, 03:26 PM	#5
Skyd Join Date: Mar 2021 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 242	You could make this argument about almost anything, and it comes down to sales margins really. But for example taller riders, such as myself, are often limited to Adventure bikes or Motocross bikes for comfort out of the box. Luckily for us, there's plenty of aftermarket support, such as bar risers. I'd like a mid sized cruiser but at 6'4" they're a little cramped. I could install forward controls though and some other minor adjustments and probably be reasonably comfortable. My point is, sometimes it makes more sense to sell to the masses and let the aftermarket handle the rest. __________________ 2020 RPS Hawk 250 - Build thread can be found here: http://www.chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=28374 "Do Wheelies and Forget your Feelies" "If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?" -unknown
	1

04-07-2021, 04:40 PM	#7
JerryHawk250 Moderator Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: Houma, La. Posts: 11,554	All I can say is adjust and adapt. __________________ 2023 Lifan Lycan 250 Chopper 2023 Venom Evader 2022 Lifan KPX250 2020 Kawasaki Vulcan S 2004 Honda ST 1300 2016 Black Hawk 250 (sold) Keihin PE30 carb,125 main,38 slow.Pod filter,ported & decked head 10:1 CR,Direct Ignition Coil,15/40Sprockets,NGK DPR8EIX-9,De-Cat,Dual Oil Cooler,Digital Cluster 2016 Cazador180 XL 2014 Coolster150 JerryHawk250.com My YouTube Channel
	6

04-07-2021, 04:30 PM	#6
ChillRider Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: A small country with a funny name Posts: 164	Well, the guy in the pic surely knows a thing or two about bikes that don't fit... in his own words, it looks like he's riding a Honda Chappy
	0

04-10-2021, 03:27 PM	#8
ikeus685 Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Coastal Oregon Posts: 154	Agree with you all.. But Iam stuck with short legs and an aging bod that doesn't appreciate hyper-flexing of hip and legs to straddle a bike. My ol 74 Penton Hare Scrambler 250 I could mount no problem.. Any one remember this jewel? For street riding my '16 750 Shadow with a 27" seat height is cool but, a real bitch at close to 600lbs to maneuver about.
	0

04-10-2021, 03:57 PM	#9
ikeus685 Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Coastal Oregon Posts: 154	Yeah.. Greed, keeping those$$$ flowing force consumers with limited choices..large selection of colors and minor options for these commitee selected bikes in direct compitition with the industry leaders.......BS! Japan has maintained a small footprint of off road capable bikes with seats under 32".. 3 or 4 bikes out of all off road machines they offer. I don't appreciate being limited in my selection but, will not cave a purchase a bike that on level ground i need to stand on a peg to climb up on. What indicates a capable off road motorcycle? Are we incapable of venturing off road unless we have 10'' of suspension travel and 10 " of ground clearance? Waaay too much industry gooble d gook advertising claims of what is acceptable for a dual purpose bike has been jammed down our throats. I do appreciate Lifan Xpect 200 offering..But thats really it.. 2 off road contenders for those who don"t appreciate a case of nose bleed when jumping on their Chinese bikes,
	0

04-12-2021, 03:36 AM	#10
Boatguy Join Date: Feb 2021 Location: Northeast Posts: 929	This could be crazy but what about mods? If you’re shorter, you’re hopefully lighter too. Drop the suspension travel? Smaller wheels? Replace the seat itself with something lower to the frame? I have no idea how feasible these ideas are, but just thinking out loud __________________ 2020 Lifan x-pect
	0

04-12-2021, 04:07 AM	#11
XLsior Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Australia Posts: 1,282	Fairly sure the domestic Asian market is filled with bikes and 2 wheel modes of transport for the smaller stature individual (aka native population) but the majority of those a 150cc or less. For that market the 250cc is considered already to big which has also some reason as to why we don't really see any incentive from China to go larger than 250cc. And as emissions and safety requirements are always being updated bikes are just getting heavier and larger.
	0

04-12-2021, 09:54 AM	#14
RedCrowRides Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: Florida Posts: 759	Not bashing on anyone nor intending to start a firefight, but a "low seat height" on a serious Dual Sport / Enduro where ground clearance and suspension travel are both integral parts of the equation just isn't going to happen in any serious way with the result retaining any real capability. The solution to this is don't "demand" a Dual Sport or Enduro perform a role that a Cruiser ( low seat height part of design) would be better at . Or, simply buy one of the what i call " 3/4 sized " Dual Sports / Enduro Bikes like the ORION 150 ,and several other similar Makes/ Models., and dont make unrealistic expectations for the 250 Enduro / Dual Sport class.,especially not from bargain priced Chinese Bikes whose extreme low price is predicated on producing a ton of them over a long term with minimal changes , which cost money to implement. There are replacement wheels in 19/17 and 17/17 combos, lowering links, sliding fork tubes up in clamps , lowering the sag, shaving seat foam , different bar bends etc options out there ,and making the Bike fit your needs has always been and always will be a part of the dirt bike Ownership scene. __________________ 2001 Mustang GT 2004 Sportster 2018 VADER 2020 Orion RXB250L
	1

04-12-2021, 04:58 PM	#15
XLsior Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Australia Posts: 1,282	I never said they don't make engines larger than 250. What I eluded to is that the Asian market is predominantly focused on selling units to the domestic population which makes lets say 90% only needing smaller bikes of 150cc or less. The original Honda CG125 basically proves this as even Honda themselves decided 125cc small bikes was all the segment needed. Chinese dual sports in the western market is extremely niche segment that the profits are not really there for manufactures who then need to meet the required design rules and regulations to pass legal requirements. Trying to fit all that stuff on a smaller bike while maintaining performance is a juggling act the bean counters typically won't touch.
	1