Food for thought: Extinct JAPANESE motorcycle brands

[FastDoc]

With all of the differnet names, if not motorcycle, brands coming and going from China, I thought a comparison with the early Japanese bikes that came and went is in order. We are on the very early part of a wave here, similar to the Japanese motorcycle invasion of the 60's.

A main difference is that the early Japanese bikes offered something different from the existing American, British, Italian, and Spanish bikes that were prevelent at that tiime. Many of those have since been driven to extinction by the superior Japanese product.

Most of us would agree that the only area, at present, where the Chinese have the edge is in price.

Still, it's an interesting time to own a ChinaBike.

I have all of 1,000 miles on my Q, and 200 miles (all off-road) on my HSUN and it's been a good ride so far.

Japanese bikes that have come and gone:

Bridgestone
Cabton
Fuji
Hodaka
Hosk
Marusho
Meguro
Mitsubishi
Rikuo
Tohatsu

And I'm sure there are others.

As far as the Chinese, I'm sure there have been some flashes in the pan too!

[forchetto]

I had the experience of living through the death throes of the British and
European bike industries in the late 60's and the establishing of the Japanese as the dominant force. I well remember even hardened motorcyclists staring in open mouthed awe at the sheer technology, build quality and performance of the early Japanese imports. They did criticise and sneer at them, but in their heart of hearts they knew this was the beginning of the end for the hallowed established brands. The Italian industry was only saved by government intervention.

Differences between today’s Chinese imports and the Japanese imports of 40/50 years ago:

>In general, the Japanese built their own designs; the Chinese build old/cast off/pirated designs of other companies. The most unique Chinese machines I’ve seen are the CFMotos, and they use copies of Honda Helix engines and transmissions (the Helix is one of the oldest designs on the USA market, BTW).

>By the time most Americans had seen their first Honda, that company had won the Isle of Man TT races. Suzuki had won a World Championship off-road. The only Chinese factory racing team I know about races a Suzuki with European riders.

>Honda spent a dozen years buying the best American and European machine tools and copying the best factory practices. By the time they began exporting (~1960) they had world class, and even world best build quality and performance. The Chinese, well, not so much, eh?

>The successful Japanese companies set up importers, built dealer networks, training centres and spares depots, issued comprehensive technical literature, and sold under their own name brands. Brand name means nothing to the Chinese, where it is everything for the Japanese.The Chinese companies generally sell as rebranded private labels, and often name multiple, competing non-exclusive national distributors. Most appear not to give a toss about spares distribution, service manuals or even building up customer loyalty and supporting sport at grass roots level.

It’s easy to import some bikes. It’s much harder to still be a player in 20
years.

[FastDoc]

Imagine the feeling of the British thumper rider in 1973 when they first were passed by a CB 750 8O ? Very clear the end was near.

I agree that the Chinese bikes offer us nothing new, except for the price.

That said, it does seem that the engines and frames are reliable, and under the right care and circumstances, that the bikes themselves are reliable enough for most riders. OK for the price...

I was just wondering about the parallels between the Bridgestone or Hodaka rider of the early '60's and the current Yamoto or Tank rider of today.

[Dragon]

Didn't the US government give away billions of dollars to Japan and Europe after WW-II, for 'em to rebuild their industries? They obviously spent the money very wisely. Now, they're whooping us in both bikes and cars.

China is now loaded with cash, and can't spend it fast enough. My feeling is they'll do what Japan did after the war, use the cash to increase quality and productivity and build brands. Before long, we'll see lots more 400cc china bikes and more brand like American Lifan and CFmoto.

China bike has only been on the market for a very short time. Look at the huge improvement in quality now compared to two/three years ago. China is no longer just copying nowadays. In China, there are electric scooters everywhere. They seem to have taken the lead on developing of electric scooters. I haven't seen a single electric scooter here in the States. China already has plug-in electric cars on the road.

To be sure, china bikes are not going to dethrone japan bikes--anytime soon as least. But china bikes will be around for a long time, given the its excellent value.

[Kawazacky]

Well.....I see it like this.

Japanese motorcycles beat the British, etc. out because of their advanced technology and competitive pricing. Their technology has continued its upward progress since, but so has their pricing (although they are cheaper than their European and American counterparts).

Chinese motorcycles, on the other hand, are technologically close to where the Japanese road bikes were when they started. They are sort of a bare minimum, but - that is all many riders need or want. And since the prices are so much more competitive, that's why they are selling. Euro bikes lost out because of the pricing difference. I don't think the Chinese will make the same mistake.

[forchetto]

They'll have to rely on the export market for the future. At the moment city after city authorities are compulsorily and without compensation banning and scrapping 100's of thousands of motorcyles, including electric scooters, surprisingly:

This are scrapped in Guangzhou:





Another scrapyard in Shenzhen:



The reasons given are the high number of motorcycle accidents and the pollution produced.

[forchetto]

Originally Posted by FastDoc

I was just wondering about the parallels between the Bridgestone or Hodaka rider of the early '60's and the current Yamoto or Tank rider of today.

The 1967 Bridgestone 350 GTR would still impress today with its performance and technology. They were eventually taken over by Kawasaki together with their advanced two-strokes:

Max. power 40 bhp @ 7500rpm, max speed 105 mph. Standing quarter 13.7 sec. and 42 years ago...

[culcune]

There is a quote I recently read from an article in an Australian magazine about the Puzey 250 MX bike; something along the lines of "the Chinese can build Boeing jet engines if told how to do it..." or something like that. There are several, if not all, major motorcycle manufacturers with Chinese connections. I am quite sure that the "better" ones are more directed by the 'foreign' company than the Chinese. I recall that Loncin makes the 650 BMW single, Qingqi makes several Suzuki bikes/engines, and there is a plant making Yamaha's 450 quads in China (according to someone on mychinamoto who lives near one of the plants). Asiawing uses someone's 450 and 500 engines, which are more than likely the technology from one of the Japanese brands.

It's taken seemingly a few years, but we are seeing some products from China that are worthwhile. It has been longer than we think, though, as there were bikes coming to the US and sold on Ebay in the late 90's (probably earlier), and probably all over the world in starting in the mid-90's. Those bikes were the typical GY series dirt bikes in 125 and 150 form. So, once these bikes started getting noticed in the early '00's, and had graduated to the common 200cc engines, we, who started following them, started expecting more, and it took till about '07 (at least in the US) before we got better when Qingqi released the motard. CPI, arguably a Taiwanese company, has started wider release of their bikes, and Puzey of S. Africa, has built its very promising bike somewhere in China (my guess is still Galaxy).

Even the lesser bikes seem to be getting better, so time will tell who will be around and who won't. I personally am rooting for Puzey, Qingqi, CPI and Asiawing as I would like to be able to buy one of their bikes indefinitely into the future, but that does not mean I am hoping for any other company's demise. The market will figure that one out!

[culcune]

Originally Posted by FastDoc

I was just wondering about the parallels between the Bridgestone or Hodaka rider of the early '60's and the current Yamoto or Tank rider of today.

Yamoto is already gone from the US thanks to a lawsuit filed by Yamaha over designs. I am sure the manufacturer in China still exists, but they are gone from the US.

Tank seems to be on a slippery slope more due to them being a Wall Street traded company. Once the stock is worthless, they will be gone, too. Not a bad company, but not a great one, either. However, their purchase of Redcat and the continued interest in scooters could keep them afloat. Time will tell whether they will continue or become a piece of history. There will be survivors, 4 of whom I am hopeful for in my other post, but some that I didn't even think of.

[phil]

seems like there is a chinese curse
"MAY YOU LIVE IN INTRESTING TIMES"
i also learned at the indy show someone would ask dealer? or distributor? i started answering "i sell a few china bikes,,,sorry" one guy who appeared to have been in the industry a good while looked at me smiled and said "dont appoligize look at this building half is chinese they are here to stay"

[lego1970]

I've never had a china bike but almost bought a Qlink dual sport last month and I gotta say the fit and finish on the bike was really good. It looked better put together then this brand new KLR650 that I looked at. The KLR650's turn signals, bark buster, and even the entire tail assembly was off a little. I've seen other brand new Japanese bikes where the tank is off or the fairings don't fit flush. The KLR was a brand new 07 model, and just from sitting in the Showroom window, the plastic was already fading so I guess they don't put any kind of UV protection into the plastic. I ended up buying a Suzuki DR650 and it's fit and finish looks tight so I'm happy, but I was really impressed with that Qlink. The Qlink look 10 times better then a Chinese Diablo(?) dual sport I looked at 4 years ago.
There may never be a Chinese manufacturer that produces top of the line motorcycles but I think they could fill a niche kinda like the Hyundias and Kia's do in the automotive industry. Look how far Hyundia and Kia has come in the last 10 to 20 years. I think they are here to stay.

[AZ200cc]

Originally Posted by forchetto

They'll have to rely on the export market for the future. At the moment city after city authorities are compulsorily and without compensation banning and scrapping 100's of thousands of motorcyles, including electric scooters, surprisingly:

This are scrapped in Guangzhou:





Another scrapyard in Shenzhen:



The reasons given are the high number of motorcycle accidents and the pollution produced.

Only to make room for the cars in an evolving nation, I assure You. But everyone copies..Honda copied the Chevy Avelanche with the ridgeline, Ford copied dodge in the Semi Truck design, The Jap companies flat out styled bikes to look just like Harleys and sold them for less. Nobody is less guilty than another.

[Dragon]

Such an oppressive regime!

[tcs]

I have an "Encyclopedia of Motorcycles" at home, published around a dozen years ago. Two interesting things:

1) Probably 95% of the brands listed are unknown today, and the entry is just a short paragraph about the country where they were located and the years they were in operation.

2) Most of the world's largest motorcycle manufacturers today...are not listed in this "Encyclopedia"! Lifan, Zongshen, Hero, Baja & etc were unknown to even experienced motorcycle journalists just a decade and a half ago.