The New KTM look-a-like - Page 4

Suprsignet · 04-29-2008, 03:16 AM

As prices for the bikes in North America haven't been set yet, speculation is at best only guessing. I can't say what the prices will be, if you're positive about what you want then you should buy it. If you don't want to wait you shouldn't wait.

If price is the only concern and quality means nothing to someone there will always be crap to fill the need.

The best and most successful products are ones that achieve a balance of excellent quality and reasonable price. This is why the US auto makers are dying. They still can't manage to build a decent product at a decent price and therefor lose most customers accept those loyal to the brand.

A product that is built well and has that balance of quality and price and is supported by its manufacturer/ importer will be successful and will create a following of it's own. A product like this will also help to dispel the stigma that Chinese motorcycles are poorly built and engineered crap.

I never said anything about the 250 w/c being so expensive. We really don't know until it is released to the public. As of yet it is still in the tooling stage, but I doubt it will carry such a high price tag with it.

DesertDog · 04-29-2008, 08:37 AM

i haffa read all these post when i get off work tonight ,
just a quick note when i asked my supplier a cost to fill a container they came back and said they do not mass produce this bike and parts are at my (the distributors) cost they do not back this bike in the means of warranty for parts, is how understood it

keyboard later this eve.
DD

AZ200cc · 04-29-2008, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DesertDog

i haffa read all these post when i get off work tonight ,
just a quick note when i asked my supplier a cost to fill a container they came back and said they do not mass produce this bike and parts are at my (the distributors) cost they do not back this bike in the means of warranty for parts, is how understood it

keyboard later this eve.
DD

It's all in the details, If You can do the math on what the price will be and find out if the parts are truly going to be available. I will be looking for a new bike next year..I am after a dr350 but if these bikes past muster I would be interested, But not if parts are not available and they are the same price as a DR

elroyjetsn · 04-29-2008, 01:34 PM

Signet,

I suspect that all the pushrod engines are based on the Honda GC125. So you have 150 big bore and 200 stroker/bigbore kits being made to make these engines streetable in the states. But the casings and gearbox are still basically designed for this 125cc engine. So, you don't want to overdo the HP and start causing premature tranny deaths.

If the OHC engines are based on the XL185 with a beefier case and gearbox, you may safely up the displacement 75/80% as with the GC125 pushrods and maintain some reliability. 300cc is alot to expect from it though. Now, if they used an XL250 mill as the basis, 300cc should be well within the design limitations.

Which Honda engines are these 300cc's based on? The Shineray/Viva has an OHC engine that looks more like a Suzuki type case than a Honda. Is that possible. What other makes have the Chinese been cloning/subcontracted??

culcune · 04-29-2008, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elroyjetsn

What other makes have the Chinese been .....subcontracted??

Qingqi makes the engine and frame for the Suzuki DR200 as OEM

iMoose · 04-29-2008, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suprsignet

If price is the only concern and quality means nothing to someone there will always be crap to fill the need.

That 300cc's engine(LC178FMN), as best as I can tell, is a Suzuki design.

Might not have a warranty, but neither do the Ebay bikes. And Lifan doesn't seem too interested in their warranties lately. So why would that really matter. I would only worry about warranties if it was a crap bike.

Who makes the Shineray engine?

red2003 · 04-29-2008, 04:50 PM

With that engine designation I would guess it's made by Loncin. They are reputable.

TeamCheap · 04-29-2008, 05:02 PM

At 1K-1.5K screw the warranty all you'll need is a parts supply to keep it running.

Even with a warranty you'd still need a parts supply.

If they bring in a 300-400cc bike for close to or just under 2K I'll look at getting one for me but otherwise I'll just go get what I really want.

culcune · 04-29-2008, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iMoose

Who makes the Shineray engine?

I believe they manufacture their own.

Kawazacky · 04-29-2008, 05:43 PM

The higher the prices go for these bikes, the less they will sell. The price comparison issue is not between a new Jap bike, but between a used Jap bike and a new China bike (at least it was for me). Once the prices start to climb, demand will likely plummet. Why would I pay $2500 for a Chinese 250 when I can easily pick up a barely used Jap 650 for $3000 or $3500?

The prices need to stay around $2000 or less for the smaller-sized machines to stay competitive, I think. A 400 or 650 MIGHT sell for $3000-$4000, but used XRs can be had very very cheaply....

Unless the 300 machines are a big leap forward, I think they will lose out against the 200 models, too. It's all about diminishing returns.... If there's only 5 more horsepower, it's hard to spend another $1500.

Suprsignet · 04-29-2008, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iMoose

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suprsignet

If price is the only concern and quality means nothing to someone there will always be crap to fill the need.

That 300cc's engine(LC178FMN), as best as I can tell, is a Suzuki design.

Might not have a warranty, but neither do the Ebay bikes. And Lifan doesn't seem too interested in their warranties lately. So why would that really matter. I would only worry about warranties if it was a crap bike.

Who makes the Shineray engine?

Shineray makes the Shineray engines, but they, like many others have been using aging Honda designs as the basis for their engines.

SpeedSouth · 04-29-2008, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kawazacky

The higher the prices go for these bikes, the less they will sell. The price comparison issue is not between a new Jap bike, but between a used Jap bike and a new China bike (at least it was for me). Once the prices start to climb, demand will likely plummet. Why would I pay $2500 for a Chinese 250 when I can easily pick up a barely used Jap 650 for $3000 or $3500?

The prices need to stay around $2000 or less for the smaller-sized machines to stay competitive, I think. A 400 or 650 MIGHT sell for $3000-$4000, but used XRs can be had very very cheaply....

Unless the 300 machines are a big leap forward, I think they will lose out against the 200 models, too. It's all about diminishing returns.... If there's only 5 more horsepower, it's hard to spend another $1500.

I just wanted to say....I think you make a lot of good points there. I have to agree.

tcs · 04-29-2008, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elroyjetsn

What other makes have the Chinese been cloning/subcontracted??

The Zongshen Sierra (LZX200GY-2) seems to have a copy of the Yamaha TW200 OHC engine.

tcs

tcs · 04-29-2008, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suprsignet

Shineray makes the Shineray engines, but they, like many others have been using aging Honda designs as the basis for their engines.

The Honda CG125 with its OHV engine is still very much in mass production. Honda even mentioned this model in their FY2008 annual report as increasing in sales (Honda motorcycle sales are down worldwide).

tcs

DesertDog · 04-29-2008, 10:53 PM

i've got some more pics of the 300D dual, but dont know how to put them in my file from email any clues.
dont want to print ,copy,to file cant drag that way
DD
did i mention the price ( 1300USD), the dual 250 XTM (750USD), just for 50cc more thats quite a jump in price, of course that distributor cost.
and all drop ships i dont charge extra other than shipping :wink:

04-29-2008, 08:37 AM	#47
DesertDog Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 782	i haffa read all these post when i get off work tonight , just a quick note when i asked my supplier a cost to fill a container they came back and said they do not mass produce this bike and parts are at my (the distributors) cost they do not back this bike in the means of warranty for parts, is how understood it keyboard later this eve. DD __________________ DesertDog
	0

04-29-2008, 01:34 PM	#49
elroyjetsn Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: West Virginia Posts: 629	Signet, I suspect that all the pushrod engines are based on the Honda GC125. So you have 150 big bore and 200 stroker/bigbore kits being made to make these engines streetable in the states. But the casings and gearbox are still basically designed for this 125cc engine. So, you don't want to overdo the HP and start causing premature tranny deaths. If the OHC engines are based on the XL185 with a beefier case and gearbox, you may safely up the displacement 75/80% as with the GC125 pushrods and maintain some reliability. 300cc is alot to expect from it though. Now, if they used an XL250 mill as the basis, 300cc should be well within the design limitations. Which Honda engines are these 300cc's based on? The Shineray/Viva has an OHC engine that looks more like a Suzuki type case than a Honda. Is that possible. What other makes have the Chinese been cloning/subcontracted?? __________________ Wayne Wildfire WF300-SP
	0

04-29-2008, 04:50 PM	#52
red2003 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Northern Vermont, USA Posts: 1,244	With that engine designation I would guess it's made by Loncin. They are reputable. __________________ First Chinabike: 2006 Roketa RSX200E Current Chinabikes: 2023 Titan DLX & 2022 Lifan KP Mini w/ 210cc BRT kit, 22 RWHP!
	0

04-29-2008, 10:53 PM	#60
DesertDog Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 782	i've got some more pics of the 300D dual, but dont know how to put them in my file from email any clues. dont want to print ,copy,to file cant drag that way DD did i mention the price ( 1300USD), the dual 250 XTM (750USD), just for 50cc more thats quite a jump in price, of course that distributor cost. and all drop ships i dont charge extra other than shipping :wink: __________________ DesertDog
	0

04-29-2008, 03:16 AM	#46
Suprsignet Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 88	As prices for the bikes in North America haven't been set yet, speculation is at best only guessing. I can't say what the prices will be, if you're positive about what you want then you should buy it. If you don't want to wait you shouldn't wait. If price is the only concern and quality means nothing to someone there will always be crap to fill the need. The best and most successful products are ones that achieve a balance of excellent quality and reasonable price. This is why the US auto makers are dying. They still can't manage to build a decent product at a decent price and therefor lose most customers accept those loyal to the brand. A product that is built well and has that balance of quality and price and is supported by its manufacturer/ importer will be successful and will create a following of it's own. A product like this will also help to dispel the stigma that Chinese motorcycles are poorly built and engineered crap. I never said anything about the 250 w/c being so expensive. We really don't know until it is released to the public. As of yet it is still in the tooling stage, but I doubt it will carry such a high price tag with it.
	0

04-29-2008, 05:02 PM	#53
TeamCheap Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: directly under the earths sun............NOW Posts: 2,302	At 1K-1.5K screw the warranty all you'll need is a parts supply to keep it running. Even with a warranty you'd still need a parts supply. If they bring in a 300-400cc bike for close to or just under 2K I'll look at getting one for me but otherwise I'll just go get what I really want.
	0

04-29-2008, 05:43 PM	#55
Kawazacky Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Saint John, N.B. Posts: 279	The higher the prices go for these bikes, the less they will sell. The price comparison issue is not between a new Jap bike, but between a used Jap bike and a new China bike (at least it was for me). Once the prices start to climb, demand will likely plummet. Why would I pay $2500 for a Chinese 250 when I can easily pick up a barely used Jap 650 for $3000 or $3500? The prices need to stay around $2000 or less for the smaller-sized machines to stay competitive, I think. A 400 or 650 MIGHT sell for $3000-$4000, but used XRs can be had very very cheaply.... Unless the 300 machines are a big leap forward, I think they will lose out against the 200 models, too. It's all about diminishing returns.... If there's only 5 more horsepower, it's hard to spend another $1500.
	0