Zongshen 200, OHC, or pushrod?

suprf1y · 10-06-2007, 01:55 PM

I found a great deal on a Zongshen 200 dualsport.
I haven't seen the bike, and know little or nothing about them.
From the searching I've done on the forum, it sounds like they're good bikes.
Just wondered if these motors re OHC, or pushrod?
Thanks.

madmanjustice · 10-06-2007, 03:12 PM

the OHC engine has ports on top of the valve cover to adjust the valves, it looks like this.
http://store.oohla.com/storefiles/te...9712445431.jpg

My Roketa has this engine, but i saw a new DB-07B yesterday that had a pushrod engine and emmision equipment installed.

*edited for typo

suprf1y · 10-06-2007, 03:32 PM

Thats the OHC motor.
I just spoke to the dealer.
He says its pushrod.
I was kinda hoping it was the OHC

katoranger · 10-06-2007, 03:47 PM

I have a pushrod. It stills gets me everywhere.

Allen

Q · 10-06-2007, 05:38 PM

Anyone know the advantages and disadvantages to the Lifan OHC vs. OHV engines? Must be some reason they make both types.

I've had German and Japanese motorcycles with both types and have not had a problem with either, with the exception of cam chain tensioner trouble on a couple OHC engines.

Q

knothead · 10-06-2007, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Q

Anyone know the advantages and disadvantages to the Lifan OHC vs. OHV engines? Must be some reason they make both types.

I've had German and Japanese motorcycles with both types and have not had a problem with either, with the exception of cam chain tensioner trouble on a couple OHC engines.

Q

OHV (pushrod) engines make better power low in the rpm range, OHC engines are better for top end. I have the OHV engine and it does fine around town, just short shift to keep the rpms below 6K or so. Off road I much prefer the OHV as the bottom end pull is great when the going is rough and slow (tight woods).

mrhyak · 10-06-2007, 06:26 PM

I believe the engine life for OHV is suppose to be longer then that of OHC.

Q · 10-06-2007, 06:36 PM

Some OHC engines have great low end power, it's just a mater of the cam design. Some OHV engines have great high RPM power. My CX500 is a OHV engine and the power band is 6500 to 9500 RPM.

In general though it's easier to make a high RPM OHC engine since there is usually less weight in the valve train.

Q

Quote:

Originally Posted by knothead

OHV (pushrod) engines make better power low in the rpm range, OHC engines are better for top end. I have the OHV engine and it does fine around town, just short shift to keep the rpms below 6K or so. Off road I much prefer the OHV as the bottom end pull is great when the going is rough and slow (tight woods).

suprf1y · 10-06-2007, 06:55 PM

OHV motors don't make better, or worse lowend power. Thats determined more by camshaft profile.
OHC motors are better suited to higher RPM operation, only because of the simplified, and lighter valvetrain.
Really, theres nothing wrong with OHV, its just old technology.
There are still lots automotive engines using pushrods, but other than the Chinese, no bikes that I know of.

Q · 10-06-2007, 07:35 PM

How about Harley Davidson?

Q

Quote:

Originally Posted by suprf1y

There are still lots automotive engines using pushrods, but other than the Chinese, no bikes that I know of.

Nate · 10-06-2007, 08:16 PM

Ya harleys still use pushrods. But Harleys are using motors designed in the 60's. They are a throw back and are not any were near competitive with the Japanese engines.

Over-head cam means that the camshaft is in the head of the motor.. ie bolted to the top of the engine.

On the 'OHV' it realy is a pushrod motor as both motor are 'over head valve' (other types would be very old designed like F-heads on 50's inline six's or like the flathead ford v8 developed in the 30's)

Both are powered by the crankshaft. Which is what is connected to the pistons and converts the up-and-down motion of the pistons into circular motion for the transmission.

With the OHV there is either a chain or a belt that connects the camshaft to the crankshaft. (A belt won't stretch, but it's absorbs more energy and can be attacked by harse chemicals in the oil. A chain is more noisier, the timing will change over time, but it's probably more efficient.. I am not sure. Both can break)

The valve rocker arms (levers that push the valves up and down) often rides directly on the camshaft. These require adjustments as valves stretch out over time and you'll start getting 'clicking' noises.

With the pushrod motor (on these small motors) you have the camshaft connected to the crankshaft by gears. But you can have belts and chains also. (like in a Chevy small block V8).

To connect the rocker arms at the top of the motor to the camshaft towards the bottom you have long pushrods (hollow metal tubes) that ride on 'lifters' ( metal pads that pushrods sit on). The pushrods go up and down and push up on the rocker arms and the rocker arms lever and push the valves down, which lets air/fuel into the motor and controls the exhaust.

Some engines will have different sorts of lifters. Solid lifters need to be adjusted like on OHC with no lifters. Hydralic lifters use oil pressure to 'pump up' and don't need adjustments although on motors with low oil you can hear 'clicking' if there isn't enough pressure.

I don't know what these engines use, but I assume the pushrod engines use solid lifters with a gear-driven camshaft. And the OHC uses a chain driven cam shaft with no lifters.

Pluses for OHC are that the valve train is lightweight. With no lifters and pushrods it does not require as heavy springs to prevent the valve from 'floating'. When valves 'float' they don't close all the way and may bounce on when they try to close. This is _bad_.

Pluses for pushrod motors is that they can have higher reliability as long as the oiling system is well designed. Often no belts or chains to stretch and break. That sort of thing. Also pushrod motors are easier to work on. If you need to replace a valve or a broken spring it's easy to unbolt the head, were as with OHC it can require significantly more effort.

OHC have the advantage of making it easier to run multiple valves and better port design (better tuned ports, better flowing, etc). So often it's easier to get better HP out of a OHC engine.

So OHC are favored for small high-reving motors. But I bet these Chinese motors have other design considurations that limit their revs....

For example high revs require significant cooling capacity. This is the big problem with running high revolutions all the time.. your firing the engine much faster and there is more heat to remove and there is less time to remove it. There is probably significant limitations on lubrication and cooling for these motors.

Also the quality of the crankshaft shaft bearings and how balanced the crankshaft is will limit your revs. If it's badly balanced and the crankshaft will shake and bend and hurt the bearings and hurt the engine case.

On some motors (like old Volkswagon bugs) the crankshaft is not balanced at all.

Counter-balancing shafts will smooth the motor out, but this is cosmetic as far as high-reving is concerned. In fact counter shafts can limit revs because it's extra stress rotating them.

Probably other design compromises (to keep the motor cheap and easy to work on for third world nations) are probably going to have more to do with the performance of the motor then OHC vs Pushrods.

red2003 · 10-06-2007, 08:33 PM

Nate, that's a good post. I especially like that you have addressed the fact that ALL these 200's are OHV. It's a difference between OHC and pushrod, NOT OHC vs OHV. Anyway, as an FYI, the pushrod motors don't use lifters to connect the cam to the pushrod, they use a "L" shaped cantilever that transfers the side to side motion of the cam lobes into the up and down motion of the pushrods. The cantilevers rock on a pin that mounts in the cases just above the cam. It's that big chrome screw on the left hand side of the motor, and the easiest way to identify the engine as pushrod if you can't see the head. Good post bud!

mrhyak · 10-06-2007, 09:50 PM

The Russian Ural bikes are of an even more vintage design then the Chinese bikes (more like 1950's technology). Since they changed their bikes from flathead in the 1950's, the current design hasn't changed much in over 50 years.

SamM · 10-07-2007, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Posted by Nate
Ya harleys still use pushrods. But Harleys are using motors designed in the 60's. They are a throw back and are not any were near competitive with the Japanese engines.

Great post Nate, you make some good points. However, not all Harley engines use pushrods. Harley Evolution engines use pushrods, but Harley makes other engines besides the Evo. Ever heard of the Harley-Davidson Revolution engine. This engine is used exclusively for the V-Rod models. No pushrods in that Harley engine. This engine is also available in the new V-ROEHR Sportbike. The builder of the V-ROEHR, Walter Roehrich says parts are available to push the Revolution engine up to 190hp. H-D also made an engine in the 60's called the NOVA. It didn't make it into production but they still made it and tested it a great deal. The new Buell Helicon engine also does not use pushrods. It's new for next year, so you probably haven't heard of this one yet. The Helicon is built in Austria by Rotax/BRP a Canadian/Austrian company. Rotax has made several engines for Harley also. A few years ago they made the Rotax powered MT500 dualsport bike for the US Military. I almost bought one. This engine I believe had pushrods! I'd have to check to be completely sure though.

As for Harleys not being competitive. Uh, have you ever heard of Top Fuel drag racing. Harley clone engines (because they are bigger displacement) dominate that series. Also, Harley runs the only factory sponsored team in the NHRA Pro Stock Series. Harley has won that title for the past two years running and those bikes are very competitive with the Japanese technology. Andrew Hines was their winning rider for both of those championships. Good old US technology vs. good old US technology. None of those bikes are pushrod engines but they are Harleys none the less. This may be apples and oranges but your blanket statement was that Harleys were not competitve. A few years ago, I drag raced my 1998 Buell S1W at Quaker City dragway and beat a Suzuki Katana in a 1/4 mile drag race for stock type motorcycles. I went on to build this bike into a 122rwhp monster but health issues kept me from racing it again.

I'm not some Harley fan by any stretch and I'll probably never own another one. I've been to the other side of the mountain and I like it better.

This may not clear up anything and just start more debate.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to the issue of the Zongshen engine. It would depend on what model Zongshen dualsport you were looking at. I believe the ZS167FML engine found in my QLink X-Ranger 200 is an OHC non-pushrod engine. The X-Ranger is a cloned Yamaha TW200 and uses the TW Yamaha cloned engine. Zongshen has used both versions of the Honda cloned engines. Another interesting point to my bike is that it also comes with a Mikuni carb stock from the factory. This is a very nice upgrade.

Nate · 10-07-2007, 06:59 AM

Quote:

NHRA Pro Stock Series

That's drag racing.

I am talking about things you can actually purchase in a store and ride around on. Your talking about engines that cost 10's of thousands of dollars and get torn down in between every serious competition. Two totally different planets.

As far as harleys go they make very good motorcycles and you don't want to be driving around on something were you need to keep it at high revs or stress out the motor for long distance riding. Slow moving, high torque engines are the name of the game for cruisers and Harleys are as good, and often better, as anything.
[/quote]

10-06-2007, 01:55 PM	#1
suprf1y Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: SW Ontario Posts: 408	Zongshen 200, OHC, or pushrod? I found a great deal on a Zongshen 200 dualsport. I haven't seen the bike, and know little or nothing about them. From the searching I've done on the forum, it sounds like they're good bikes. Just wondered if these motors re OHC, or pushrod? Thanks.
	0

10-06-2007, 03:12 PM	#2
madmanjustice Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 135	the OHC engine has ports on top of the valve cover to adjust the valves, it looks like this. http://store.oohla.com/storefiles/te...9712445431.jpg My Roketa has this engine, but i saw a new DB-07B yesterday that had a pushrod engine and emmision equipment installed. *edited for typo __________________ 2005 Roketa rat bike - The Ratketa 1982 Yamaha Maxim 750 The Ratketa Restoration Project The Ratketa Blog
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10-06-2007, 03:47 PM	#4
katoranger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Altamont, Kansas Posts: 15,103	I have a pushrod. It stills gets me everywhere. Allen __________________ You meet the nicest people on a Honda Clone.
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10-06-2007, 06:26 PM	#7
mrhyak Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Hyak, WA Posts: 448	I believe the engine life for OHV is suppose to be longer then that of OHC. __________________ 1985 Kawasaki Tecate-3 1997 Ural Sportsman 2WD 1980 Yamaha XS1100 2005 TANK Trail 200 2009 Lifan LY110GY-3 (2)
	0

10-06-2007, 08:33 PM	#12
red2003 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Northern Vermont, USA Posts: 1,248	Nate, that's a good post. I especially like that you have addressed the fact that ALL these 200's are OHV. It's a difference between OHC and pushrod, NOT OHC vs OHV. Anyway, as an FYI, the pushrod motors don't use lifters to connect the cam to the pushrod, they use a "L" shaped cantilever that transfers the side to side motion of the cam lobes into the up and down motion of the pushrods. The cantilevers rock on a pin that mounts in the cases just above the cam. It's that big chrome screw on the left hand side of the motor, and the easiest way to identify the engine as pushrod if you can't see the head. Good post bud! __________________ First Chinabike: 2006 Roketa RSX200E Current Chinabikes: 2023 Titan DLX & 2022 Lifan KP Mini w/ 210cc BRT kit, 22 RWHP!
	1

10-06-2007, 03:32 PM	#3
suprf1y Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: SW Ontario Posts: 408	Thats the OHC motor. I just spoke to the dealer. He says its pushrod. I was kinda hoping it was the OHC
	0

10-06-2007, 05:38 PM	#5
Q Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bend, Oregon Posts: 348	Anyone know the advantages and disadvantages to the Lifan OHC vs. OHV engines? Must be some reason they make both types. I've had German and Japanese motorcycles with both types and have not had a problem with either, with the exception of cam chain tensioner trouble on a couple OHC engines. Q
	0

10-06-2007, 06:55 PM	#9
suprf1y Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: SW Ontario Posts: 408	OHV motors don't make better, or worse lowend power. Thats determined more by camshaft profile. OHC motors are better suited to higher RPM operation, only because of the simplified, and lighter valvetrain. Really, theres nothing wrong with OHV, its just old technology. There are still lots automotive engines using pushrods, but other than the Chinese, no bikes that I know of.
	0

10-06-2007, 08:16 PM	#11
Nate Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 24	Ya harleys still use pushrods. But Harleys are using motors designed in the 60's. They are a throw back and are not any were near competitive with the Japanese engines. Over-head cam means that the camshaft is in the head of the motor.. ie bolted to the top of the engine. On the 'OHV' it realy is a pushrod motor as both motor are 'over head valve' (other types would be very old designed like F-heads on 50's inline six's or like the flathead ford v8 developed in the 30's) Both are powered by the crankshaft. Which is what is connected to the pistons and converts the up-and-down motion of the pistons into circular motion for the transmission. With the OHV there is either a chain or a belt that connects the camshaft to the crankshaft. (A belt won't stretch, but it's absorbs more energy and can be attacked by harse chemicals in the oil. A chain is more noisier, the timing will change over time, but it's probably more efficient.. I am not sure. Both can break) The valve rocker arms (levers that push the valves up and down) often rides directly on the camshaft. These require adjustments as valves stretch out over time and you'll start getting 'clicking' noises. With the pushrod motor (on these small motors) you have the camshaft connected to the crankshaft by gears. But you can have belts and chains also. (like in a Chevy small block V8). To connect the rocker arms at the top of the motor to the camshaft towards the bottom you have long pushrods (hollow metal tubes) that ride on 'lifters' ( metal pads that pushrods sit on). The pushrods go up and down and push up on the rocker arms and the rocker arms lever and push the valves down, which lets air/fuel into the motor and controls the exhaust. Some engines will have different sorts of lifters. Solid lifters need to be adjusted like on OHC with no lifters. Hydralic lifters use oil pressure to 'pump up' and don't need adjustments although on motors with low oil you can hear 'clicking' if there isn't enough pressure. I don't know what these engines use, but I assume the pushrod engines use solid lifters with a gear-driven camshaft. And the OHC uses a chain driven cam shaft with no lifters. Pluses for OHC are that the valve train is lightweight. With no lifters and pushrods it does not require as heavy springs to prevent the valve from 'floating'. When valves 'float' they don't close all the way and may bounce on when they try to close. This is _bad_. Pluses for pushrod motors is that they can have higher reliability as long as the oiling system is well designed. Often no belts or chains to stretch and break. That sort of thing. Also pushrod motors are easier to work on. If you need to replace a valve or a broken spring it's easy to unbolt the head, were as with OHC it can require significantly more effort. OHC have the advantage of making it easier to run multiple valves and better port design (better tuned ports, better flowing, etc). So often it's easier to get better HP out of a OHC engine. So OHC are favored for small high-reving motors. But I bet these Chinese motors have other design considurations that limit their revs.... For example high revs require significant cooling capacity. This is the big problem with running high revolutions all the time.. your firing the engine much faster and there is more heat to remove and there is less time to remove it. There is probably significant limitations on lubrication and cooling for these motors. Also the quality of the crankshaft shaft bearings and how balanced the crankshaft is will limit your revs. If it's badly balanced and the crankshaft will shake and bend and hurt the bearings and hurt the engine case. On some motors (like old Volkswagon bugs) the crankshaft is not balanced at all. Counter-balancing shafts will smooth the motor out, but this is cosmetic as far as high-reving is concerned. In fact counter shafts can limit revs because it's extra stress rotating them. Probably other design compromises (to keep the motor cheap and easy to work on for third world nations) are probably going to have more to do with the performance of the motor then OHC vs Pushrods.
	0

10-06-2007, 09:50 PM	#13
mrhyak Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Hyak, WA Posts: 448	The Russian Ural bikes are of an even more vintage design then the Chinese bikes (more like 1950's technology). Since they changed their bikes from flathead in the 1950's, the current design hasn't changed much in over 50 years. __________________ 1985 Kawasaki Tecate-3 1997 Ural Sportsman 2WD 1980 Yamaha XS1100 2005 TANK Trail 200 2009 Lifan LY110GY-3 (2)
	0