Templar X 250

[Nutcracker]

Originally Posted by Fast_Freddy

I really like that oil temp gauge/cap but can't find one other than HTT-1. I did find the manufacturer. Now I need to measure my oem oil dipstick unless someone already knows the length. I'm hopeful that one of these HTT-3/4/5/6 caps will work.

I used the bike for a short street trip that resulted in 175° temp. I definitely think it needs a oil probe touching the oil. Also I don't like firing up any small engine before first checking the oil level.

The HTT-2 is threaded for a probe like the pictures you attached showing the HTT 3/4/5/6.. Going to thread some stainless or aluminum rod & taper it down on the lathe to see what temperature results that gives. Never used one of these before pretty cool.

[Fast_Freddy]

Originally Posted by Nutcracker

I used the bike for a short street trip that resulted in 175° temp. I definitely think it needs a oil probe touching the oil. Also I don't like firing up any small engine before first checking the oil level.

The HTT-2 is threaded for a probe like the pictures you attached showing the HTT 3/4/5/6.. Going to thread some stainless or aluminum rod & taper it down on the lathe to see what temperature results that gives. Never used one of these before pretty cool.

I agree that the temp. reading should be more accurate with a probe bathed in the oil. Checking the oil level before firing up is a great habit.

I'm very interested in your idea for adding a probe/dipstick to the HTT-2. I think the HTT-2 is by far the best looking oil temp gauge/cap that I've seen. Is it already threaded? I've only seen photos and it looks like it has a hole for a set screw to retain a dipstick. Either way if you can add a functioning temp probe/dipstick to the HTT-2 it'll be awesome!

[Thumper]

What are the symptoms?
My hot exhaust lighting the brush the other day has me thinking I need to rejet more rich, or at least enrich the airscrew (tighten it another 1/4 turn). I still have some popping when I let off the gas.

[Imposing Will]

Originally Posted by DanDLion

Thanks Thumper! Those are encouraging words to hear while I troubleshoot this. Haven't ridden in 15 years and cant wait to cruise some trails.

I assembled it myself, tried to take and my time and do it right. Electrical seems to be in working order with new battery and she turns over really well. I did pull the plug and visually see spark (possibly could have been stronger). But even after 10-20sec of cranking I cant get it to fire once, and when I pull the spark its dry and doesn't smell of gas... And I confirmed fuel flow downstream of the fuel filter...

Megadan suggested valve adjustment which I agree needs to be done. Didnt think valves out of adjustment would cause an issue similar to this though. I am really starting to suspect fuel is not getting into the engine, although I do believe it is getting to the carb... Valves seem easiest to adjust first, then onto pulling the carb, unless the wizards here can send some magic my way.

Valves were tight on mine right from the jump. I'd check them, if you haven't already.

[Zooker89]

Well, I finally got it all fitted up proper.

The skid plate that fits the M requires a bunch of work to fit the X.

Now I have it half part again to do the valve adjustment, add the intake gasket, change the oil and then hopefully fire it up.

Thanks to all on here that give such great information to make this process easier.

[Texas Pete]

Originally Posted by Thumper

Remove the spark plug, remove the side cap an put a 14mm (15mm?) socket onto the end of the crankshaft (stator side). Open the sight capjust above the stator, and you are halfway there.

Pop the exhaust valve cover (crescent will do). Rotate the crank counterclockwise to the | T mark. The valve is open, or closed. Rotate it another 360 degrees, it is open or closed. When you figure out which is valve closed (gap open), set it to 0.001-0.002" I find that this is 1/8th turn from gentle full close to no gap. Cap it up and repeat on the intake... done. This gap just barely feels perceptible by hand on the rocker. Perfect.

Yes. They were tight. I did the 1/8th on both. Took lots of photos but of course, I also have it not fully re-assembled. I want to also change the oil and then reinstall the skid plate and re-zip-tie my hour meter on my spark plug boot. Then I'll fire it up and see how different it performs, if I notice anything.


In the meantime I took a ton of photos, I might make a separate post on it one day.

[Texas Pete]

I took a ton of photographs from the previous work done in the post above. One thing I decided to grab while I had parts of the bike and good access was the intake gasket.


Everyone has reported no gasket.


I even thought I had no gasket, all my work on the intake manifold has been from the top and from the side looking down. Everything looked like gray metal to me.


However, after working on it, I had the skid plate off the bike and was looking around the bottom of the motor when I looked up at the intake manifold and said to myself, WTH?!! I clearly saw a gasket corner. I wiggled the corner back and forth with my fingers just to make sure it really was and it did flex and as it flexed the gray coloring flaked off and it became a lot easier to see that it is indeed a paper/material gasket of some sort.


I took a photograph of it in case internet detectives would like a look. Maybe with this angle and photograph it may encourage a few more in depth bottom up inspections under the intake and see if I am a rare one off with gasket on my Templar X 250 or if there are others out there that discover similar on their bikes.

[DanDLion]

TexasPete can confirm my new Templar X came with an intake gasket. After reading this thread I had it on my assembly checklist and was surprised as well.

[Fast_Freddy]

So this doesn't fit the base Templar. The frame is in the way. The threads match but it's too tall. It might fit the X/M. I haven't heard back from HSI (HTT maker) and I'm done for now. Maybe if the HTT-2 becomes available again I may buy one and mod it with a dipstick.

[Fast_Freddy]

Originally Posted by Texas Pete

Yes. They were tight. I did the 1/8th on both. Took lots of photos but of course, I also have it not fully re-assembled. I want to also change the oil and then reinstall the skid plate and re-zip-tie my hour meter on my spark plug boot. Then I'll fire it up and see how different it performs, if I notice anything.


In the meantime I took a ton of photos, I might make a separate post on it one day.

"Tight" as in too tight or just right? I just checked mine and they were a tight .002" (Just right). I reset them to tight .002" intake and loose .002" exhaust but now I hear some light tapping on the exhaust side so I'm going back to the tight .002" it came set to. None of us even know whether the gap on this particular engine opens or closes with heat.

[Texas Pete]

Originally Posted by Fast_Freddy

"Tight" as in too tight or just right? I just checked mine and they were a tight .002" (Just right). I reset them to tight .002" intake and loose .002" exhaust but now I hear some light tapping on the exhaust side so I'm going back to the tight .002" it came set to. None of us even know whether the gap on this particular engine opens or closes with heat.

Too tight as in no movement. All engines heat up and the metal expands. The thermal expansion when running means that when the engine is cold, the valve clearances will be at their largest. Hydraulic cam followers were put into modern engines to prevent tapping noises as the engine heat up they adjust with the increased heat, but they don't exist in our Chinese Honda clone engine. If you have tappet rattle at full running temperature then you can reduce the clearance within the specifications range. Just keep in mind if the gap is too large the tappets will rattle, but if its too small the valve will not close properly when hot, and that can lead to misfires and burned valves.

[Fast_Freddy]

Originally Posted by Texas Pete

Too tight as in no movement. All engines heat up and the metal expands. The thermal expansion when running means that when the engine is cold, the valve clearances will be at their largest. Hydraulic cam followers were put into modern engines to prevent tapping noises as the engine heat up they adjust with the increased heat, but they don't exist in our Chinese Honda clone engine. If you have tappet rattle at full running temperature then you can reduce the clearance within the specifications range. Just keep in mind if the gap is too large the tappets will rattle, but if its too small the valve will not close properly when hot, and that can lead to misfires and burned valves.

That's a good explanation of valve clearance in a cast iron pushrod engine but it doesn't necessarily apply to a cast aluminum engine with OHC and rockers mounted to the valve cover. While true that metal expands with heat, which expands more; the valve stem or the aluminum valve cover?

Anyway I'm glad you didn't run too long with no valve clearance. Mine was luckily perfect from the factory.

[Thumper]

A respected guru recommends 0.002" clearance on 172-FMM engines. Who is this? Joe Henner. No one checks the valve clearance when the engine is hot, but that would be the best time to verify that the gap hasn't closed.

A fully closed gap when the engine is HOT is no problem, as long as the valve is not slightly open. The main reason for a gap is to assure that the valve CLOSES when the engine is hot. Escaping gases burn through the valve seat. This is bad.

So I will stick with 0.001-0.002" on intake, and closer to 0.002 on exhaust. Do I have evidence for this? No. I just pretend to be a guru

After a lengthy session of valve adjustment, I discovered that about 1/8th turn loose from snug is about 0.002" or a little less. At least this was true when I did this. One of these days, maybe I will do a hot check

[Fast_Freddy]

Originally Posted by Thumper

A respected guru recommends 0.002" clearance on 172-FMM engines. Who is this? Joe Henner. No one checks the valve clearance when the engine is hot, but that would be the best time to verify that the gap hasn't closed.

A fully closed gap when the engine is HOT is no problem, as long as the valve is not slightly open. The main reason for a gap is to assure that the valve CLOSES when the engine is hot. Escaping gases burn through the valve seat. This is bad.

So I will stick with 0.001-0.002" on intake, and closer to 0.002 on exhaust. Do I have evidence for this? No. I just pretend to be a guru

After a lengthy session of valve adjustment, I discovered that about 1/8th turn loose from snug is about 0.002" or a little less. At least this was true when I did this. One of these days, maybe I will do a hot check

Another respected source who recommends setting 172-FMM valve clearance to 0.002" is Zongshen. They allow +/- 0.001" on that so anything between 0.001-0.003" is in-spec. I am in 100% agreement with both Zongshen and Joe Henner on this.

Thanks for the 4 stroke 101 re. burnt seats. The only reason I checked my valves after only 50 miles. Just in case they weren't set right, they were.

I saw that you had some problems after adjusting your idle mixture screw. I got around to changing my idle air screw yesterday. Originally I set it to 2-out because I couldn't remember which way was richer. I googled it and the first hit said that most commonly the idle mixture screw controls fuel so clockwise is leaner and counter clockwise is richer. On the Templar you can't adjust the idle mixture without loosening the carb and wiggling it around so I can't adjust it on the fly. This being the case I opted for 1/2 turn richer initially which turned out to be leaner when I later confirmed that these carbs are the opposite. In fact I learned something very useful. When the idle mixture screw is located on the air filter side it controls air volume and when on the intake side after the slide, fuel. I used to just adjust it to the fastest idle and then 1/2 turn richer but I've never had a carb sitting snug against the frame with no access to the idle screw before...

...So, back to the story, I tried 1-out but it seemed a bit too rich so I'm currently testing 1.5-out. It starts without any choke and idles great. I'll check the plug someday, the exhaust smells splendid! Methinks 1.5-out is very close for me. Sorry for any confusion caused by my poor memory. I've already corrected the resource guide.

[DanDLion]

Does anyone know what the thread size is on the oil drain plug for the Templar X? I am looking at either a magnetic drain plug or a quick change drain plug but am unsure on thread size for ordering. Ty!